Israeli woman refuses ultra-Orthodox dictate to move to back of bus

seems whenever there is criticism of jew supremacists their bootlickers on ATS come to cover up.

reply to post by dontreally

You cannot even understand the terms that I'm speaking in. I might as well be speaking Chinese.

You're only fooling yourself dontreally.

Some of the points you have made may be applicable with the right stimuli, but for you to assume your prefabricated textbook definitions apply to each situation is complete foolishness.

That's the problem with "higher education". You believe the words you read in these books because they're portrayed as reality by your witch doctors who take advantage of your naivety in order to systematically condition you into falling for this fairy tale you're trying to shove down our throats.

Whenever anyone shares a different perspective, or proves one of your theories to be completely false, you resort to name calling and claiming the person you're speaking with has a lower level of intelligence than you. That is a worthless tactic that exposes your inability to hold a proper debate.

I'm educated, but I don't try to use my education as a soapbox to stand on while i talk down to the rest of the people. Just because a professor at some Ivy league school told you something, doesn't make it true dontreally, you have a LOT to learn about the real world.

Peace.

Live and let Live, right? If the Jewish Orthodox are on the upswing in Israel - live and let live. Follow your liberal dictum, and have respect for other peoples and their cultures.

reply to post by dontreally


And did this man have a live and let live attitude to the woman? Did he have respect for the woman's wishes? No so you can take your religious clap trap and shove it to be honest, this man was acting without any care for the other persons feelings or wishes, he was trying to impose his will upon someone else, he demand she move, and then was a complete a-hole and held everyone else up because he couldn't get his way, sulking like a petulant child, yes very spiritual...

This is no different from making a woman walk behind you like the Muslims do, it is male ego trying to dominate women, and if you want to talk about male respect in Jewish orthodoxy, why not mention how the Women have to shave their heads and wear wigs, of how when they have sex they have to have a sheet between them with a hole cut in it, because the woman is unclean, or how she is not allowed to sleep in the marital bed when she is on her period because she is classed as dirty.

Funny how people like you want to bomb Muslims because of their differences, but forgive any indiscretion by someone Jewish

reply to post by dontreally

And as for the 'back of the bus'... To just speculate, since i am intimate with Kabbalistic logic, the front is the masculine, while the back is the feminine, as in Jewish legend, Before Adam was split apart, his front was masculine while his back was feminine.

once again you show yourself as a superficial student of the Kabbalah
and as one who does not know the Gaon from Bar Kohkba

if you were truly "intimate" with the Tradition you would have "knowledge " of the Shekinah, and you wouldn't be defending this regressive authoritarian/patriarchal insecurity nonsense.

get a clue, both the age of the mother and the age of the father are LONG OVER

reading a few books on Kabbalah and syncretizing it with your zionist credo

doesn't make you a Kabbalist
not even of the "Lite" variety

how many times are Those Who Know going to have to expose your superficial knowledge, tainted exposition, and affirmation of ignorance?

reply to post by sueloujo

Well obviously this woman was not orthodox...and he should have "respected" that instead of trying to thrust his religion on her.

I agree. If someone has a problem with it, you tolerate it. Clearly, the culture in Israel is Hellenistic, and not Jewish, so they can't honestly expect for things to change barring a religious revolution in the country.

Until that happens, they should tolerate other peoples beliefs. But if, or, when that happens, and it becomes the law of the land, I think it is pure ignorance to look at it - merely because of your own exposure to western ways of thinking - as "immoral". There is simply nothing immoral about it.

It becomes immoral when the dominant culture looks at is as a form of discrimination, not understanding it an an expression of a metaphysical and spiritual outlook, and than seeking to impose it on the person. This is confusing, and so, not right.

If a religious revolution ever happens in Israel, secular Jews can leave Israel and go to the west, where they belong, and do the world a favor, because calling yourself Jewish but thinking like a Hellenist confuses people. The vast majority of people don't even know that Jewish, means Hebraic, and Hebraic, refers to a different way of looking at the world. And it is in what i just explained - that it is different from Hellenism (this is also the inner philosophy behind the holiday of Hanukkah)

Here in the west, we arrogantly demand that everyone - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc, look at the world the way we look at it - and if they don't, we brand it as immoral.

But analyze what's being called immoral. If Orthodox (traditional) Jews look at the world in a esoteric, and metaphysical way, a way so foreign to our ways of thinking, and see everything in the world as a symbol, and sign, pointing to the creator, and seek to imitate the metaphysical principles of creation in every aspect of their life, why is that bad? It's bad because we ourselves don't like it. I will be the first to admit, that a part of me doesn't like it. I don't think it's fair that woman should be told to seat anywhere. But then I, unlike most people, will then question that thought... But why do I feel that way about it? Ultimately, it becomes reduced to pleasure. I find that inconvenient. I find that way of looking at the world, as one massive analogy, as unpleasurable. But what if a religious Jew experiences it as something different? What's pleasurable to me, becomes pain for him. Not imitating the laws of creation, creates a void and ossification in the world. Instead of Gods movement within society - in the human reflection in society of divine principles - it becomes another, senseless, and soulless, secularism. The Semitic mind, and we see this in both Judaism and Islam, can't countenance the dichotomy between God and state. It's irrational to them. The lower emotions should be transformed - and indeed, their lofty ideal of imitating divine principles is designed to set an equilibrium within the human psyche, balance the energies of life, and invoke blessings on the community.

So... I don't know. But this isn't immoral. It isn't what a similar case with blacks here in America was.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Whenever anyone shares a different perspective, or proves one of your theories to be completely false, you resort to name calling and claiming the person you're speaking with has a lower level of intelligence than you. That is a worthless tactic that exposes your inability to hold a proper debate

So.. what are you saying? Was this an attack against me, or against my defense of Orthodox Judaism? Which do you want to talk about?

reply to post by dontreally


It wasn't an attack, it was on observation.

What part of it do you not agree with?

reply to post by PrinceDreamer

and if you want to talk about male respect in Jewish orthodoxy, why not mention how the Women have to shave their heads and wear wigs,

That's a hasidic custom. That's not Jewish law. Plenty of Orthodox Jewish woman don't shave their heads or wear wigs.

Funny how people like you want to bomb Muslims because of their differences, but forgive any indiscretion by someone Jewish

When do I bomb Muslims for their differences? I've actually on plenty of occasions defended Shari'a law, except with its approach to non-Muslims.

it is male ego trying to dominate women

That's where I disagree, and that, is frankly, untrue. If people don't like my haughty tone, its probably because i have to deal with self-righteous liberals half the time.

In Jewish legend, it is lilith which refuses to be at the bottom; and in the biblical narrative, it is Eve who is deluded by the snake. Why do you think its always the woman? This, I'm sure, you will be quick in your western ignorance to call "misogyny". But It's not. It's all archetypal. The feminine is the receptive. Meaning, relative to God, the creator, mankind is the receiver. Even built within our biological nature is the will to receive; a need for food, shelter, pleasure. When mankind revolts against God, it is an expression of feminine disobedience.

In today's terminology, im sure this sounds "Nazi" and "mean" and "unfair", and as much as I can sympathize with that understanding, i still consider it childish, and immature, and premature.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Well, I consider it ignorant to label the sophisticated metaphysical spirituality of Orthodox Judaism as being the thinking of a "witch doctor"...

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

once again you show yourself as a superficial student of the Kabbalah

Coming from someone who probably doesn't even read Hebrew, hasn't read the Zohar, and has no knowledge of Biblical metaphysics (clearly, otherwise you wouldn't think the way you do), and yet you're a "Kabbalist".. Of the Madonna type, certainly.

It isn't Kabbalah that you're learning. Its Gnosticism/Hermeticism couched in Kabbalistic language. It's the crap found in Crowley, and Samael Aun Weor, and Theosophy.

There's a good reason why they use the letter Q to differentiate it from the authentic Orthodox Kabbalah. They are different philosophies. Yours, unfortunately, is the dualism studied by societies elite.

if you were truly "intimate" with the Tradition you would have "knowledge " of the Shekinah, and you wouldn't be defending this regressive authoritarian/patriarchal insecurity nonsense.

Buddy. Please expand your knowledge. This isn't Biblical Kabbalah, but Gnosticism. It's Sabbateanism. Its the gentile perversion of Hebraism.

I don't know where you get off criticizing my knowledge. It's based on the Torah.

The story is not that simple. First, there is a public/media campaign against discrimination of women. It started when religious soldiers walked out of the theater on military base when there were women singing.
Then, everyone who lives in Israel for several months knows that ultra-religious live in sort-of own world with special laws and daily life.
One of these things is few public transportation routes used almost exclusively by this sector (like to Bnei Brak and to Ashdod and few others) that every Israeli knows about. She did not got on one of those routes by mistake, and she did not sit in the front near the driver to know when to get off. It was on purpose. But you know what, even though i hate cheap tricks like this and people who try to ride the media waves - she is right.
Why should someone decide where women sit?
As for the episode that started the current wave, soldiers vs women singing - i think that soldiers were right, by the way.
Why should anyone force what one should hear?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

 

Well, I consider it ignorant to label the sophisticated metaphysical spirituality of Orthodox Judaism as being the thinking of a "witch doctor"...

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. My comment wasn't generalizing Orthodox Judaism only, it applied to all other forms of organized religion and beyond that even. My comment applied to philosophy, psychology, spirituality...etc.

Most these concepts are based on text book definitions which don't allow much room for reality. Reality is ever changing so therefore you cannot categorize these concepts, as they're intangible. We can argue about these things for ever and never reach a compromise.

I wasn't trying to demonize these concepts, only to point out that they're based on flawed logic which cannot be proven. Then of course, I can't prove that that they cannot be proven, but you equally are unable to prove them as well. Which leaves us here arguing about it on the internets.

reply to post by mkgandhas

seems whenever there is criticism of jew supremacists their bootlickers on ATS come to cover up.

Jew supremacists?
The women was a Jew. And a idiot that tried to get a rally and kept everyone waiting was a Jew. Policeman was a Jew. Driver was a Jew.
What racial issues have to do with this case?

You know - one with the same attitude can say "Seems any time there is a criticism of Israel, antisemites on ATS come to sta... , wait - to cover up. "

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

get a clue, both the age of the mother and the age of the father are LONG OVER

You truly do not understand the archetypal basis of spirituality.

It cannot be anything but the Mother or the Father. Society always functions in either one of these modes. They cannot be transcended; In fact, if you believe they've been transcended, than that's proof of your feminine spirituality.

Patriarchal religion reflects the metaphysical dynamic of unity within multiplicity. Meaning, the giver - masculine - and the receiver - feminine, reflect their divine prototype, as God, the giver, and mankind (or the Shekinah, the indwelling presence of the divine) the receiver.

When mankind ignores the divine dynamic, or, as the societies elite do, manipulate it, the divine name becomes distorted. The movie Avatar - which you should know, being a "Kabbalist" and all (and I have never stylized myself as that. It's pretentious, in my opinion) utilizes Kabbalistic motifs throughout. For instance, the people of Pandora are called the Navi - Hebrew for prophet. And the name of their goddess, is EYWA, a transformation of the tetragrammaton from יהוה to היוה. The two masculine letters, the Yod and the Vav, are contained by the two feminine letters Heh. Being a big time Kabbalist, you must be able to understand, what this signifies. You're probably privy to the Kabbalistic texts which explain the 12 unique permutations of the divine name, associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac. This formation, corresponds to the month Shevat - and Dli - the water-bearer, i.e. Aquarius. So is this coincidence? That James Cameron named his goddess, after a kabbalistic transformation of the tetragrammaton which corresponds to Aquarius i.e. Aquarian spirituality, New Age etc.??? Of course not! This is because the elites understand the significance of the Hebrew language, and the power of the tetragrammaton.

Any distortion of the divine order renders societies functioning from masculine to feminine. The feminine in question is the sophia, and "virgin" worshiped by Gnostics. She blocks out the light of the Creator, regarded by people like you as a "demiurge". In this mode, there is no order. No proper way. No system to be imitated. This is the essence of the feminine. This is Lilith and Adams relationship before God created Eve from Adam's side. Lilith refused to be under Adam in copulation (i.e. to receive the masculine influence). She like Adam, was created from the same clay - referring to the prima materia, the world of Tohu/Chaos. At the level of Chaos, or void, there is no form of relating in a created context, between masculine and feminine, because there is no distinction or difference at that level. Hence, Lilith (meaning night) produces Demons with Ashmodai (Fire from Death), because the self delusion personified as Lilith creates disorder, and so, creates evil, and demons in the world. Something, judging from your misanthropist posts, you fully embrace. Adam and Lilith is unity at the level of Chaos. Such unity, when incarnated in the created order, brings the world back to its immature state of primordial chaos.

And to highlight this point, that lilith is the patron saint of feminists, the feminist Magazine Lilith, was named after her. They do that, because they know that Lilith is the archetype of spiritual rebellion against God - or the masculine.

All rebellion against the metaphysics I've discussed in this thread, whether you like it or not, (and i know you do not like it) is an expression of femininity. Because it refuses to receive the divine impression implanted within creation.

Wow - can I quote you on this one?

"When mankind revolts against God, it is an expression of feminine disobedience."

I did not know that.

I am really starting to worry about the potential backlash against Israel and Zionism.

I only want people to know the truth about Israel and all the terrible things it does and represents. Can we find a way for especially American Christian Zionists to have a more realistic view of Israeli Jews without feeling the have been lied to by Zionists?

A story like this is going to anger at least half of the Jewish women in America and we know the power they have in the feminist movement here.

If they come down hard on Israel it will be over for the colony.

I think moderate criticism of Israel is in order. We don't really want to "wipe them off the map." Maybe smudge them a bit bt not wipe them off the map literally.

Thanks for understanding.

Good. It is Women who must make the stand for women's rights.

There are many who support the right of women. But if Woman doesn't stand up and take the risk - - it will not happen.

So many women of male dominant culture - - - still believe the culture. They honestly do believe man is superior and they do not have equal rights. Even in Christian culture.

Women themselves are probably the biggest obstacle to women's freedom.

Originally posted by BRAVO949
"When mankind revolts against God, it is an expression of feminine disobedience."

This is part of Christianity as well.

Don't try to sluff this off to only other beliefs.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Most these concepts are based on text book definitions which don't allow much room for reality.

And what is reality? Secular-Humanism?

Reality is ever changing so therefore you cannot categorize these concepts, as they're intangible.

Oh..So i see you follow the explanation given by Alinsky in 'rules for radicals'. The only truth is 'change'. That's Hellenism, btw. That's what its founding Myths are all about.

The Jews and Hellenists, as Hanukkah commemorates, do not get along. You're idea of reality being the truth change, is an assumption. Yes. reality changes, but that doesn't say anything about the symbolism of the world around us. It doesn't imply that the this is the meaning and significance of the world.

Hellenists block out the symbolism treated as important by Judaism. This is why the metaphysics described above, can be ignored; because there is a more important idol/concept, in the Hellenist perspective, to pay attention to: change, which ultimately means, relativism.

We can argue about these things for ever and never reach a compromise.

True.. I'll agree to that.

I wasn't trying to demonize these concepts, only to point out that they're based on flawed logic which cannot be proven.

The truth of the reality of 'change' only appears to be a truth because there is an apparatus - Hellenistic society - with its secularism and relativism, that generates this mentality. The one fosters the other.

Conversely, in Hebraic times - a thing even denied (or rather, covered up) by archeologists and anthropologists today, the God of Israel was experienced as a real thing. It was not as the world is today.

Fact is, the world is conditioned by the human understanding of it. If we believe in the Hellenistic point of view, the world and its functioning will justify that belief.

For instance, if someone is worried about something, this thing always pops up around him. If, for instance, he's worried about his weight, his attention will be directed, via unconscious forces (the archetypes of his belief....called gods in ancient times) to things that have to do with weight. If he's worried about a disease. Everytime he turns on the TV, his mind will pay special notice, automatically (and unconsciously) to the thing he considers so important.

Our beliefs are truly what conditions are understanding of "reality" . This is why in the Bible, it's said, not by bread alone does a man live, but by Manna. Man (mann in hebrew) is from the word EMuNaH - belief. A Man literally lives according to what he believes.

Which leaves us here arguing about it on the internets.

Eventually this issue will be sorted out. You can believe that. The Hellenists want the Jews gone (the holocaust was such an attempt), because theyre an 'obstruction' to the reality/mentality they want to establish i.e. secular-humanism. Conversely, if the Jews succeed, than things will become more complicated for the Hellenists.

I don't know. I defend what I think is right. I can care less what other's have to say about it.

Originally posted by dontreally
And what is reality? Secular-Humanism?

Is there something wrong with Secular-Humanism?

reply to post by dontreally

And what is reality? Secular-Humanism?

I don't claim to fully understand what we call reality. I do know that it cannot be predefined. Current teachings in these concepts we are discussing are specific and direct, and in my opinion don't leave much space for alternative interpretations. I don't like to slap labels on reality, you won't ever catch me categorizing it with names such as "secular-humanism". I don't hold any ill will towards you for seeing it differently. You have your interpretation, I have mine. I'm sure when it gets down to it, we might even share some similar beliefs (I know, it's scary isn't it?)

Oh..So i see you follow the explanation given by Alinsky in 'rules for radicals'. The only truth is 'change'. That's Hellenism, btw. That's what its founding Myths are all about.

I don't follow Alinsky's rules for radicals. Change is not the only truth, it's one of the many variables that truth and reality consists of. Once again our belief systems are conflicting. You're following your predefined set of rules which dictate how you interpret and react to certain situations, where I look at the scenario as a unique event, do a situation analysis and react according to what I think is suitable. I may base my decision on previous experiences, but I will not let previous experiences completely define the current situation as for each situation is different.

The rest of your post has a lot of content that I don't have the energy to address at this time. I will tell you that from what I have seen of it, I don't agree with some of it. Probably because of those conflicting beliefs I just mentioned.