It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Western Magick and Charismatic Christianity

page: 1
<<   2 >>

log in


posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 05:35 AM
I just finished an interesting documentary about Solomonic Western Magick. It details how one man supposedly rediscovered the secrets of King Solomon's magickal techniques. From what I can tell, he is spot on, scientifically. The reason I bring up science in a discussion about the occult is simple: the man openly acknowledges that magick is all in your mind, which is what many scholars are now saying. He makes a few simple claims:

1) Magickal manifestations take place in your mind, not in the physical realm.

2) Magickal ceremonies are hypnotic in nature (chants and meditation are very hypnotic)

3) The deities and spirits described by ancient texts are extensions of our own psyche, as we are extensions of the universe.

I am of the belief that he is entirely correct in all these things. Science is catching up to these occult beliefs.

Now on to the actual purpose of my thread.

I was raised in a very strange religious home. My parents were both extremely avid members of the United Pentecostal Church, which is known for its eccentricities and striking oddities in comparison with non-evangelical denominations. If you have never experienced a session in a Pentecostal church, let me break down a typical service for you.

Before "service" starts, members enter the "prayer room", which is a darkened room that is usually full of chairs or pews. These are usually gender-separated. In here, all manner of strangeness may occur. Typically, everyone is praying loudly in a chant-like fashion, each independently. You will hear very strong worship for God, as well as invitations for God's presence and spirit, and also requests for his will to be done or generic requests like "heal my daughter", etc. Sometimes these individual prayer sessions will spontaneously unite into a massive group prayer where everyone joins hands and prays together. Glossolalia, also known as "speaking in tongues", will also be a common occurrence in both individual and grouped prayers.

After the preliminary praying, members will conclude their prayers and greet one another. They reenter the "sanctuary", which is where the main church service will take place. Service will usually begin at a specified time (hence the organized exodus from the prayer room). Almost always a church session will begin with a music service. The choir and musicians will play pre-selected songs, and the members will engage in singing, clapping, jumping, dancing, running, rolling, and praise. This is the most lively and energetic part of the church service, and serves to break the ice. Usually after about two or three songs, the pastor or assistant pastor will take prayer requests, after which the entire church will be led in group prayer over all of the requests that were made. Then they will receive an offering. They pray over the offering, asking God's blessings on the money given and that it will further the Kingdom of Heaven, etc. After this, more songs will be sung, until finally the speaking minister will approach the podium and begin his sermon.

A minister's sermon can be about anything. Usually, though, it begins with a prayer, once again inviting God's presence and asking his blessings on the message and that everyone will take it to heart and those that need to hear it will receive it in their hearts, etc. Then there will be a reading from the Bible, which usually pertains to the message to be given. Sometimes, the prayer and the reading of the Bible will be switched, sometimes there will be prayer, bible reading, and another prayer. It depends on the minister, but this is almost always the format. During the sermon, evangelical ministers like to evoke verbal and emotional response from the members listening. In an evangelical scene, the purpose of the service is to reach out to "sinners" and get people to join the church, or receive the Holy Ghost (God's spirit living within them).

After the sermon, the minister usually offers an "altar call". The front of the church where the podium is located is referred to as the altar. The minister will invite anyone and everyone to approach the altar and pray. There will typically be several individuals who feel compelled to go up and pray. Then, the minister along with any other ministers or even regular members will go from person to person, praying for them. You've probably seen YouTube videos of preachers violently praying for people, laying their hands on them and yelling. This is typical. There are usually 5-6 preachers in an average sized church praying for everyone during the altar call.

During the altar call is where the strangest things occur. People can become incapacitated by the "Spirit of God", literally falling on the floor into a trance-like state. I've seen people go into meditative states of intense worship, completely oblivious to anything going on around them. This is all a real phenomenon. I have experienced it first hand. I have been prayed for or ministered to be men and I would suddenly feel a strange sensation in my body that would cause me to enter a strange mental state. I've also engaged in intense worship that put me into a trance of extreme mental and physical pleasure. It was a feeling like everything I ever wanted in life was suddenly given to me and nothing was wrong in the whole universe.

Now fast forward to today. I am now an agnostic atheist. I don't actively believe in the Judeo-Christian God known as Jehovah or Yahweh, or any other gods. However, I don't rule out the possibility that godlike beings could exist, somewhere. But through my studying of the occult, for curiosity purposes only, I have reached the conclusion that these charismatic, evangelical Christian practices are strikingly similar to some Magickal practices. There are chants and prayers. There are invitations for the spirit(s) presence to enter the room. There are even trance-like states achieved through prayer and meditation. Yet, Christianity outright condemns magick and sorcery to hell. One thing that sort of blew my mind was that when I heard a practicing "sorcerer" reciting his prayers and incantations, they sounded exactly the same way as an evangelical minister praying. I have heard countless ministers pray before the church in a specific manner that is very similar to the incantations of sorcerers.

So what gives? Have sorcerers infiltrated evangelical denominations? Or could it be that the hypnotic methods of human divinity are scientifically explainable phenomena that are consistent across all beliefs...

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 06:18 AM
To pour water into a glass is pretty much the same act as pouring piss into a glass...however, you will have two completely different liquids in the glasses.

A glass of mud and a glass of choclate milk look alot alike...

To fry a green tomatoe is pretty much like frying country fried steak... take each one, batter, gently lay into a frying pan of grease. Fry golden brown. However, the results will be dramatically different upon tasting.

Likewise, to summon the power of God and to summon the power of another entity is pretty much the same... open you mind and heart and call upon that wise, you will have two completely different presences.

I do not doubt that the process is quite similar...however, it is the results of the summoning, the prayers or chants.

A good tree can not bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree can not bring forth good fruit... therefore, seek the good tree and harvest the good fruit... avoid the bad tree and avoid the bad fruit.

Ye reap what ye sow... cast your bread upon the waters, and they will come back to you.

What are you seeking when you seek God and prayers and blessings.. not only for yourself but for others? You are seeking good, healing, love, joy, mercy, forgiveness, peace, hope...

Likewise, what are you seeking when you summon dark powers?

The Bible..wether we believe it or not, tells us that there are both good powers and bad... and both come in forms that man can recognize and relate to and talk to... Jesus, the disciples, others from the Bible all talked to God...and they also spoke with demons... and the interaction was verbal, physical, spiritual...

Therefore, the fact that the magickal and Pentacostal or evangelical summoning pf powers is similar should not suprise us, nor should it discourage us.

Allow me another analogy... people being people all around the world... all cars and trucks look different, sometimes very different... but break all down... and they all have wheels, tires, engines, use a power source, and turn left and right...have oil filters, bearings, etc... pretty much the same everywhere

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 06:45 AM
I went to one such service. and it was quite off-putting. No person from outside can come and not think the group is a cult or insane. I was even told the cross and crucifix are vain idols and evil.
edit on 17-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 09:56 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

What's the documentary? I've been on a kick of watching all that I can lately.

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:30 AM
I was raised in a Church of God environment, and this is a very good description of the types of things that I saw.

Coincidentally, your opinion is not all that out of the way. Many Baptists that I knew though that speaking in tongues and such was likely of the Devil or, at least, not quite right.

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:30 AM

edit on 17-12-2011 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:44 AM
Originally posted by OrphenFire

During the altar call is where the strangest things occur. People can become incapacitated by the "Spirit of God", literally falling on the floor into a trance-like state. I've seen people go into meditative states of intense worship, completely oblivious to anything going on around them.

I thought I had saved the links, but.....if I find them again I will post them for you here. My husband, who lives in Louisiana (we are sepparated) recently joined a Pentacostal church, after being a Baptist deacon....well, I am not impressed, especially when he started telling me that I would not be able to cut my hair anymore, I could only wear skirts or dresses, and that he could not show up at church in a short sleeved shirt. I told him no 'freakin way!

My thoughts were how is this different from similar Muslim rules?

Anyway I had done some research and found that there are links between the Pentacostal faith and Voodin. Some of the speaking in toungues and meditative states are very similar, which makes sense to me that this is big down in the south. Pentacostalism from what I understand became popular after slaves from Africa and Haiti got more caught up in being forced to attend church.

edit on 17-12-2011 by supine because: quote

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:08 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

So what gives? Have sorcerers infiltrated evangelical denominations? Or could it be that the hypnotic methods of human divinity are scientifically explainable phenomena that are consistent across all beliefs...

Very interesting post. I can only give you my perspective. The spirit of a person is their consciousness. The entire machine of the human bio-mechanical body is a sense mechanism for the consciousness to touch the material world. The purpose of this is to gain impressions to the consciousness for the development of artificial life. I know this from allowing the impression of another image to form itself on to mine. Example:

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

There are two levels of the image:

1) We are 'inside' the created image of light, both particle and wave. We are then a form, which is animated by consciousness (Spirit). The animation process allows the consciousness to think and move the object it occupies. Time is a construct of moving forms in a space. Matter is a form of energy in motion.

2) We are the image of what created us. Read the verse above. It's stated in two ways.

Genesis 1-3:

In the beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (Space) and the Earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

The quantum observer collapses the indeterminate wave of infinity at rest (Eternal and unchanging Godhead). Research collapsing wave function to see how the observer changes the states of matter by collapsing a choice from the 5th dimension of all possible outcomes into the 4th dimension of movement. This movement then changes the state of matter on the 3rd dimension of existence. All of this is an animation of form by consciousness (Spirit).

I clarify this to say the next part: The reality of spirit (consciousness / information in motion) is not the same as matter. One is the image of the other. One can only make an impression on the other, but not directly. Information is bits of abstract logic and programming. Matter is concrete. Once you realize this, the world is seen on two levels: Abstract value and concrete tangibility.

From a physics standpoint, we are a projection in an image of light, wave and consciousness. Each of these are merely one thing in union. The one thing is God, projected into image in the universe. Father (Light), Son (Word/Wave/Information) and Holy Spirit (Consciousness).

Take a look at this from a scientific standpoint and we see a hint of the truth. I can't say it is this simple, because it's vastly more complicated than we can comprehend. Light is both a particle and a wave that gains mass and form. Consciousness is the spirit that moves the form. Why is the Son the Wave?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Light brings sentience by experience. Confucius says, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

How do we differentiate the spirits of benevolence and malevolence? Why do they exist?

Unless sentient beings have the ability to choose, there is no collapse of the indeterminate wave. In this case it would be a collapse of a determinate wave. Indeterminate means, not yet determined. God allows free will, which puts us on a level beyond remote control and into a realm of autonomy and freedom from liberty. We chart our destiny by the choices we make.

The universe is filled with both spirit beings and material beings. Each has an influence on the other for purpose. God's purpose is ultimately the one that will divide the light from the darkness and allow life to flourish by His ultimate design. We do to understand. We are becoming at all times. We side with the light or the darkness by choice, influence and the actions of others. There is no chance. God knows the destiny of all by foreknowledge. Ultimately, he goes after all lost sheep. Freedom and equality under His law is what we need to see from the abstract value of truth.

edit on 17-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 02:30 PM
reply to post by coyotepoet

Here is the documentary. It's a 7 part playlist, about an hour long. From what I can tell, the video was made in 1995. He mentions forming the sect in 1970, and later mentions that he's been training people in his sect for 25 years, which would put the video around 1995. I imagine I could confirm this by a quick google search...
edit on 12/17/2011 by OrphenFire because: link

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 02:46 PM

1) Magickal manifestations take place in your mind, not in the physical realm.

2) Magickal ceremonies are hypnotic in nature (chants and meditation are very hypnotic)

3) The deities and spirits described by ancient texts are extensions of our own psyche, as we are extensions of the universe.

Yes, yes, and yes..but i want to add something.

1) "take place in your mind, not in the physical realm".
Which can also mean "take place on another level of consciousness/reality". Mind you that i STRONGLY am of the opinion that an experience/phenomenon which "is not happening in the physical realm" is VERY WELL *real* in itself and the fact that it happens on "another level of reality" makes it NOT less relevant or "true". This is very important to know.
In fact, if we go religion/spiritualism etc...we can actually find the common opinion that we are actually limited "in our current, physical reality" and that the "other" reality is actually the "more real one".

2) Hypnotic in Nature.
YES. Because the trance/drug/meditation are the ways to alter consciousness to be able to "enter" the other reality. ("Magick" experiences, Aliens, OOBEs, NDEs, etc..etc..)

3) Extensions of our psyche.
I don't know. Possible. But i dont like to make a general assumption and simply make "our psyche" responsible for all phenomena of such kind. This wouldn't answer all questions, precognition, encounters with "beings" etc.

It is (IMO) valid to say it is indeed "another reality" where we play some part in it...not necessary assume that everything we experience is "created" by our psyche. Sorry....this explanation would be wayyyyyy to simple and to cheap and wouldn't satisfy in the slightest.

I already have problems believing that "i" am indeed "creating" dreams when i sleep because i start wondering if my psyche creates can i be surprised in a dream..or talk with another being/person...not knowing what they will reply etc.. if i already (allegedly) know the script? You see...

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 03:10 PM

Originally posted by flexy123

3) Extensions of our psyche.
I don't know. Possible. But i dont like to make a general assumption and simply make "our psyche" responsible for all phenomena of such kind. This wouldn't answer all questions, precognition, encounters with "beings" etc.

The guy mentions a shared dimension in which all of our minds, and the spirits' minds, dwell. I forgot the exact term he used, but it basically says that the dimension of our mind is not a singular mental state, but a shared mental plane among all living things. That would explain precognition and other psychic phenomena. Although, I don't necessarily believe in such a place, it's theoretically possible that our consciousnesses form a collective sea of consciousness on an astral plane, which would explain why the spirits manifest themselves within us and within our brains.

I would also like to mention something else that I completely left out of my original post. In the documentary, they perform a ritual and the goddess Astarte speaks to the group through one of the female practitioners. This is also something that happens in Pentecostal churches. Frequently, a member of the church will spontaneously begin "speaking in tongues" loudly, loud enough for everyone, including the minister, to stop talking. For a few moments, no one is making a sound, save the one speaking in tongues. Everyone generally bows their heads and silently prays for the interpretation to the glossolalia. When the person is done speaking, either the minister or someone else will give the interpretation. It is always a message directly from the mouth of God. Often, the interpreter will begin their English message stating, "Thus sayeth the Lord thy God..." and they speak in first person as if they are God talking.

How is this practice any different from the occult version with other spirits?
edit on 12/17/2011 by OrphenFire because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 03:38 PM
Good topic.

You might want to also look into the influence of the Yoruban religion on the Pentecostal movement via the West Africans in North America. The Yoruban influence is also seen in Santeria which also features trance states and spirit possession.

Sorry, I don't think I have my links anymore but I'll check.

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 05:58 AM
Here are some links that show a correlation between voodo and Pentacostalism:

Trance states are found in many diverse cultures, two of which are American and Haitian. The trance state is a biological phenomenon that serves a cultural purpose. The shared experience of the trance binds people together and allows them to have direct spiritual experience, which then strengthens their faith, whether it is at an American Pentecostal church or a Haitian voodoo ceremony. In this paper I will examine the similarities between these two cultures from a bio-cultural perspective.

Faith healer evangelist MARIA BEULAH WOODWORTH-ETTER (1844-1924) had a vast influence in the early Pentecostal movement. The Dictionary of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements says that "she was a monumental figure in terms of spreading the pentecostal message" and notes that "most early Pentecostals looked at Woodworth-Etter as a godsend to the movement and accepted her uncritically." When she conducted a five-month healing crusade in Texas for F.F. Bosworth, "the list of influential Pentecostals who flocked to Dallas was like a 'Who's Who' of early Pentecostalism" (Ibid., p. 365). Her meetings were characterized by spirit slaying, prophesying, trances, and general pandemonium. "She often went into trances during a service, standing like a statue for an hour or more with her hands raised while the service continued" (Dictionary of Pentecostal, p. 901). She was thus dubbed the "trance evangelist" and the "voodoo priestess." She falsely prophesied that the San Francisco Bay area would be destroyed by an earthquake and tidal wave in 1890. She accepted an invitation from Mormons to preach in Nebraska in 1920. new-orleans/the-basics-of-new-orleans-voodoo-part-3-regional-characteristics

TextNew Orleans Voodoo evolved to embrace the funky gumbo of cultures in the nineteenth century and as a result, it is distinguishable from other forms of Voodoo and hoodoo found in other areas of the country. For example, there is a blend of Spiritualism, African Voodoo, Native American traditions, Santeria, Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

There really is quite a lot out there if you look linking voodoo and Pentacostalism. These are just a few examples.

edit on 18-12-2011 by supine because: add link and text

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 06:11 AM
reply to post by supine

That's fascinating information. It confirms my suspicions that these states of mind are consistent across all beliefs that involve altered states.

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 06:23 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

Yes and what is scary to me is that the people who attend these kinds of congregations are subjects, really.

The people who run these shows are meerely hypnotists whether they know it or not. I think they do know it, and use it as a means of controlling unsuspecting individuals who think they are having a religious experience.

My husband and his brother were both deacons at a Baptists church, they got into an argument and the congregation split into two. My husband sort of lost the reigns (I think people figured him out) and now decided to switch to Pentacostalism where it will be easier to influence people.

Scary stuff and part of the reason we have split.

I think Charles Manson would have been a good brother of this sort of church!

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 06:46 AM
reply to post by supine

A lot of the people are very sincere in their beliefs, and are good people. However, I wouldn't trust any ministers as far as a .45 will reach. And that goes for any religion.

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 07:48 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

so when did you split and what was the ah ha moment you realized somethings are not right? Not easy being indoctrinated and raised in a religion then leave. Are you shunned now by friends and family?

Interesting to hear that you actually experience the "spiritual" phenomena, that was my first question as i started reading. My wife in the past was involved with the born again(is that the same?) and she said she felt people where acting and where trying to get her to do the funky stuff but she refused to act....but her sister out of peer pressure did the funky chicken.

Also said the priests where touching their necks wayyyyy to tenderly to pass on holy JuJu. She left the church after one touched her like that before...till she got a boyfriend.

edit on 18-12-2011 by The Great Day because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 09:46 AM
reply to post by The Great Day

It happened for me slowly, over time. I've always been a questioner and an answer seeker. I asked my father, a very knowledgeable man, questions as a kid about doctrine and other things about our faith, and most of the questions he simply couldn't answer. Some of them he could, but some he couldn't. I questioned things like, "How could God allow people who die never having heard the 'Truth' burn in hell?" He could never answer. He said things like, "Only God knows the answer to that, son." I'm glad he didn't spew me some bull# laden answer. Anyway, after years of questioning, and even trying to reason in my own mind with God, I came to the conclusion that HE just simply wasn't there. The effects I felt in these church services I found could be duplicated through mental willpower. I could also replicate "speaking in tongues" at will, with no actual spiritual connection. It was simply a learned behavior that my brain had developed out of mimicking my parents and others in church. After I put all these things together, combined with a cultural and intellectual renaissance thanks to the internet, I renounced my faith in God and religion altogether.

I have not told my parents that I am atheist. This is because of the emotional impact it would have on my mother. She would honestly believe that I am going to burn forever and she would cry. I don't want her crying her eyes out every night praying for my soul. Add onto that the passage of scripture that claims that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin, and my parents would believe there is no hope for me whatsoever. I'm just not ready to burden them with the impact of this revelation. I guess you could say I'm a closeted atheist.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 02:35 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

I totally understand that, I have questions that do not get answered but i get labeled a philosopher for my logical reasoning. I would rather keep peace and my family than be viewed as someone who has been possessed by the devil.

Its ridiculousness really....and it is very similar in most controlling institutions.

The power of the group is incredible.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 04:40 AM
reply to post by OrphenFire

Those are routine methods of control.

You'll find the same techniques used in certain self-help seminars (e.g., Tony Robbins). They pump up the crowd with music and "bind them together" and get them high, then a very charismatic figure enters and speaks to them. It can be anyone, as long as he or she is charismatic and can further pump up the crowd.

The individual "loses his or her identity" and is transformed or swayed into the identity of that of the group. You lose yourself and believe more of what everyone else in that room does. This can be positive or negative, but at the time, everyone would agree that to them, it is a positive experience. (They feel certainty and a sense of belonging.)

These are also techniques that taken to the extreme, are used by cults. They are essential tools used by cult leaders. Churches are not cults, but they do overlap in some techniques used to control people. It's not at all a form of hypnotism; that requires subtly and direction to an individual. This is more about group dynamic and what happens to people when they are part of a group. It's pretty scary stuff. Be careful who you choose to belong with...

<<   2 >>

log in