Swiss Government Declares Downloading for Personal Use Legal

reply to post by arbiture

I was not talking about information in general like intelligence agencies or the scientific community, which I believe goes straight into the public domain, but copyrighted property like music, books and that type of intellectual property.

The Berne Convention does include most of the countries of the world but it is up to the interested party to gather evidence and present the lawsuit to start the process and it isn't the governments place to investigate or look into private citizens lives on behalf of those parties.

Originally posted by daskakik

Another bit of misinformation. Intellectual property rights have time limits. After a certain amount of time they fall under public domain. It doesn't make them less valuable unless they were worth little to begin with. It may even be within the creators lifetime.

For those of you who are interested in, at least the Australian, copyright law (other countries have different laws but are similar).
How long does copyright last? | National Library of Australia

Generally speaking for music; 70 years after it is first publicized until the death of the author and then 70 years on top that where the holders of the estate will receive royalties.

What is music? Google definitions define it as: The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.

You can't "own" sound, you only own your unique combination of the sounds. Many people will disagree with me on this point but it's the truth. You don't "own" colour, you own the combination in the way you express it.

Music is plagarism. People "steal" idea's all the time off other artists. Why do you think music has genres, which all sound the same to an observer yet all have intricate detail to those who play and are a part of that music. Before electronic music musicians were limited to acoustic instruments (correct me if i'm wrong), however now there is practically no limit to what sound a person can create, with the right software (and it continually gets cheaper) ANYONE can right music. ANYONE.

My question is what makes it okay for an artist to "steal" a part of someone elses creation (musical phrase, lyrics, drum beat) sell it off as their own creation?

My answer: Because they perform live.

So if they are not performing live then why should I pay to listen to their music? Because they wrote it? Laughable at best.

Why do people play music? If they do it for the money, then they are sellouts (a dream we all have) and where is the beauty in money? Where is the emotion in money? You're playing music because you won't something else. Of course you're going to complain if people download your things for free because hell, you want more money.

Then there are people who do it because it is what they love to do, to create something, to have someone other than yourself appreciate the love you put into what you write. These people will post their music themselves online, for free, for everyone to enjoy it, build up enough followers and start playing gigs, even if it is only to a room of your friends.

What was music used for in the past? To tell stories, to pass down information from one generation to a next, to incite happiness and bring joy and love to peoples lives.

You can't stop music from being free. Sweeeden has it right and for personal use where you are NOT MAKING MONEY off it why try and limit where one procures their music from. If you try and stop people from downloading music they will still get it sharing it with other people by usb or hdd transfers (and then there is a money transfer here), you can not close the Pandoras Box that is the internet.

If you wanna make money in music, go and perform, I hear sex sells these days quite well, just include some profanity and obscene images make some video clips depicting how your so awesome with the opposite/same sex and bang, you're a hit.

Or come up with the next major musical invention, what could trump electronic music?

Many people's pockets are empty. This is what hurts entertainment industry. They should go against those who have emptied people's pockets, not sue people who have no money to pay them for pirating their property. What dumb idiots. This isn't about entertaining industry, this is part of the project of criminalizing everyone so the Global Dictatorship finds excuse for martial law and enslaving everyone by turning people into debt slaves.

Here's what I think, coming from a person that has never bought a single movie or piece of music. As peoples experience in internet usage unfolds over the years so will the increase of Piracy. I went from Kazaa to Torrents to Usenet. My dad kept buying movies and music back in the days, why? Because he did not know how to download stuff, so I taught him. Guess what, he never bought a single piece of music or movie ever again. Why oh why would you pay for music/movies if u can just download them right? And please cut the hippy "support the artist" crap. I watch my little nephew who is 4 years old with his little finger sweeping across my Phone screen like it's no deal, at school learning how to type on a computer. Piracy is going to explode over the next couple of years when more and more new generations are going to learn more and more about computers.

Piracy hurts the industry, you'r seeing glimpses of it already, it's being discussed because people are aware of it, it will only increase over the years.

Originally posted by BlackSol
reply to post by Jepic

 

I guess I should have added "deluded" after the naive.

You should do some research on darknets, and are governments going to start checking all mail to stop mail trading?

If your "solution" is so simple why has nobody implemented it yet? Government filters don't work. Just ask the Chinese that routinely get past the Great Firewall of China.

I am eagerly awaiting the name of your band so I can watch for a release. It WILL get pirated even if it is crap. That is a guarantee. Someone, somewhere will download it.

Nobody has implemented it because there is still some sortin out to do in regards to ethics, law, finance, property rights, etc...

China?

No name yet but I'll get back to you if you are interested. I guess they will download it. And I also guess I'm gonna have to be a b**** and start suing left and right if they touch my balls too much.

Originally posted by Dotted
Here's what I think, coming from a person that has never bought a single movie or piece of music. As peoples experience in internet usage unfolds over the years so will the increase of Piracy. I went from Kazaa to Torrents to Usenet. My dad kept buying movies and music back in the days, why? Because he did not know how to download stuff, so I taught him. Guess what, he never bought a single piece of music or movie ever again. Why oh why would you pay for music/movies if u can just download them right? And please cut the hippy "support the artist" crap. I watch my little nephew who is 4 years old with his little finger sweeping across my Phone screen like it's no deal, at school learning how to type on a computer. Piracy is going to explode over the next couple of years when more and more new generations are going to learn more and more about computers.

Piracy hurts the industry, you'r seeing glimpses of it already, it's being discussed because people are aware of it, it will only increase over the years.

Did it ever occur to you how much this "industry" actually hurts people?
The industry which had killed true art and destroyed everything noble in human beings?
All this industry does is prepare its victims for more blood sucking.

reply to post by Jepic

Copyright infringment doesn't just happen online. You can't control the sneaker net.

How are you going to sue people in places where it isn't illegal?

reply to post by daskakik


There, someone said it...

"Intellectual Property".

I suppose that the next step in the greed would be to, tax a usage fee...when you played a song back in your head. After all you have recently heard the song on the "free" radio about 10 times...and you know it inside and out...and since, I never actually bought it, but heard it innocently, with no intent of deliberately stealing of, said "Intellectual Property". I am now, to owe a usage fee.

Many, of histories great's, be it in Music, or Art , have died penniless. And, that is an indeed tragedy. But, it has always been like this ...To bleed a lyric that you wrote ...or, paint a tragedy, you have felt deeply...is a gift to mankind.

Writing thoughts and feelings has always been our way of communication, and even as a therapy of sorts that, helps us move on . Whether the first cave art, was painted on a cave wall, in the blood, of the animals depicted, or the blood of the artist...is unknown...but clearly it was done as an expression of self, and therefore, was a gift to the tribe...or group...or commune, or what ever label they placed on their society.

The point is this...Yes, the "Artist", or "rhythmic skin beater," had his/her place, alongside even the best of the hunters in the "Group", and probably held a higher stature than, the average fire wood gatherer.

And therefore...their works, just like the freely shared stories of the hunt...were, for all to share and to pass on from generation to generation, freely and with as much passion as the original story.

The first copyright infringement...to bad they hadn't invented lawyers yet...or they might have had better representation in recoverable losses due to, someone actually relating to the material...and perhaps gaining insight, and improving their human spirit from, what you bled to the universe.

I too, am an artist of sorts...a writer, a musician, a painter, a 3d animation creator...but I do it for the pure experience of creating...sometimes even for my own therapy.


I know yes, most of the greats did this for money, true...even some of the very best...Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven...both, wrote for payment, and the only way to experience it in the day was to buy a ticket and go to a show.

So, Buy a ticket to your faves, when they are in a city near you...all the Music, Art, and Movies can be seen and heard for free...yep.

But, you want to really experience it, you will, go to the 3d theater and see that movie as it was meant to be seen...or hear that music on true CD quality and not some distorted 128 bit sampled MP3...the free releases to the main stream consumer , whether on the radio or tv, or internet, is but an advertisement for the show to come.

Just like Avatar...seen it for free 3 times, and can't wait for it to come to my 3d friendly theater...and will I pay you bet.

And, to end this let me tell you there isn't anything better than LIVE.

reply to post by eNumbra

Some piracy maybe. There are the pirates that wouldn't pay a dime for anything. There are pirates that download just to try and then pay later or discard if they don't like.

well according to a lengthy study carried out by the swiss government, it doesn't deprive companies of money. that's pretty much the case against "piracy" dismissed. now that it is apparent piracy has a negligible effect, how can you argue that it is bad?

I am a pirate. I know I am a pirate. I have bought thousands of cds over the last 20 years. Tons of DVD/VHS/Cassette/Vinyl. That doesn't excuse me though. I have spent thousands on iTunes for inferior music audio files. That still doesn't excuse me.

I am a pirate. I know I am a pirate. When I had no money to spend I downloaded things I could not afford. That Doesn't excuse me. I am a pirate. I know I am a pirate.

Pirates have rules as well. Each have there own. I don't dislike the people who make the content I pirate. I admire them and that's why I download it. So while I am a pirate, I made a personal policy to never upload or share anything I download. That doesn't make me any less of a pirate but it gives me some way to give effort of recognition to the artists/creators. I forbid not to be a pirate. I forbid to attack other pirates. I forbid to advocate piracy though. I know I am a pirate and I am accountable for that. I will not encourage others who may not take accountability though.

reply to post by Flint2011


Like I said:

There, someone said it...

"Intellectual Property".

I suppose that the next step in the greed would be to, tax a usage fee...when you played a song back in your head. After all you have recently heard the song on the "free" radio about 10 times...and you know it inside and out...and since, I never actually bought it, but heard it innocently, with no intent of deliberately stealing of, said "Intellectual Property". I am now, to owe a usage fee.

Many, of histories great's, be it in Music, or Art , have died penniless. And, that is an indeed tragedy. But, it has always been like this ...To bleed a lyric that you wrote ...or, paint a tragedy, you have felt deeply...is a gift to mankind.

Writing thoughts and feelings has always been our way of communication, and even as a therapy of sorts that, helps us move on . Whether the first cave art, was painted on a cave wall, in the blood, of the animals depicted, or the blood of the artist...is unknown...but clearly it was done as an expression of self, and therefore, was a gift to the tribe...or group...or commune, or what ever label they placed on their society.

The point is this...Yes, the "Artist", or "rhythmic skin beater," had his/her place, alongside even the best of the hunters in the "Group", and probably held a higher stature than, the average fire wood gatherer.

And therefore...their works, just like the freely shared stories of the hunt...were, for all to share and to pass on from generation to generation, freely and with as much passion as the original story.

The first copyright infringement...to bad they hadn't invented lawyers yet...or they might have had better representation in recoverable losses due to, someone actually relating to the material...and perhaps gaining insight, and improving their human spirit from, what you bled to the universe.

I too, am an artist of sorts...a writer, a musician, a painter, a 3d animation creator...but I do it for the pure experience of creating...sometimes even for my own therapy.


I know yes, most of the greats did this for money, true...even some of the very best...Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven...both, wrote for payment, and the only way to experience it in the day was to buy a ticket and go to a show.

So, Buy a ticket to your faves, when they are in a city near you...all the Music, Art, and Movies can be seen and heard for free...yep.

But, you want to really experience it, you will, go to the 3d theater and see that movie as it was meant to be seen...or hear that music on true CD quality and not some distorted 128 bit sampled MP3...the free releases to the main stream consumer , whether on the radio or tv, or internet, is but an advertisement for the show to come.

Just like Avatar...seen it for free 3 times, and can't wait for it to come to my 3d friendly theater...and will I pay you bet.

And, to end this let me tell you there isn't anything better than LIVE.



edit on 17-12-2011 by Andronian because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-12-2011 by Andronian because: (no reason given)



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reply to post by Flint2011


I have 1 rule... I don't download anything from independent labels. Although, if you are under the umbrella of the RIAA or MPAA and you release something I want I will dl it. I will not lose a split-second worrying about if some artist can't afford a jet with a remote for the dvd player. I don't dislike the artist's whose stuff I am snatching, but I do have an intense hatred for the organizations the "represent" them.

Also, this is my way of supporting occupy people without wanting to vomit. To the artists who would be upset about my dling their work, I say "Sorry for the inconvenience, I trying to help save the world"

When we start charging each other for posts on this forum, you'll know its the end of the world. You will then understand that what you call piracy had a very certain purpose, which now you are unable to see. To fight total enslavement of sensible beings.

I've heard some compelling arguments for stealing music, a novel, or software....as in;

"I'm not stealing from the artist, I'm just helping myself to some of the extra corporate largesse
that they have been shamelessly bilking (from me) for years...the artist is already rich enough".

Okay, so stick it to the man. Banks and greedy corporations have been
taking WAY more than their fair share, so I see how this seems justifiable.
And, as far as wrongdoing goes, shoplifting from WalMart simply isn't as
morally reprehensible and seems more dilute a crime than say, stealing from
a local one-owner run shop...it's still theft. But anyway, okay...I'll give you that one.

But what about a struggling new author, who worked his way thru college on a
Ramen noodle budget, who publishes his first book (with high hopes) only to find that
instead of his work going into a second printing, it gets published all over the net on
filesharing sites. So the guy (who may have had promise...hell, he may have written
the worlds greatest novel) goes belly up for lack of funds to continue writing?

Or what about the struggling musician in the same scenario, or the software engineer
who might have produced something magnificent, but because his early semi-popular
work was stolen was forced to stand behind a counter and push fried pies and
up-sized value meals to feed his family?

You kids aren't getting it...I'm with you on the "stick-it to the man" sentiment. But in the
end your are sticking it to yourselves by your greed. The quality of art and technology
suffers...maybe not for you but it will for future generations.

AND ALL YOU'LL HAVE LEFT IS A PLETHORA OF LADY GAGAS AND JUSTIN BEIBERS,
AND DIME STORE READING MATERIAL AND SOFTWARE. THE TRUE ARTISTS ON
THE FRINGE, PUSHING THE ENVELOPE OF ART AND TECHNOLOGY, WON'T BE ABLE
TO PURSUE THEIR WORK.

You guys are as greedy and short-sighted as the corporations you are stealing from...

There is only one real reason why authors are struggling, and it is not piracy. Think about it. And stop protecting corporations who have monopolized authors' work by all possible means, monopoles and black lists.

Originally posted by rival
AND ALL YOU'LL HAVE LEFT IS A PLETHORA OF LADY GAGAS AND JUSTIN BEIBERS,
AND DIME STORE READING MATERIAL AND SOFTWARE. THE TRUE ARTISTS ON
THE FRINGE, PUSHING THE ENVELOPE OF ART AND TECHNOLOGY, WON'T BE ABLE
TO PURSUE THEIR WORK.

Wow, that's pretty melodramatic...

All the people that release stuff under creative commons obviously release inferior products compared to people that need to be paid for their work.

Also, I don't appreciate being called a "kid" You'd be surprised how many older evillllllll life destroying pirates there are.

reply to post by rival

wrong. the highest paid singer in the world per cd is beyonce with $1 per cd. think about that. a $15-$20 dollar cd, and even the highest paid singer in the world only gets one dollar. the rest goes to producers. that is what crushes new artists and independent software developers.

quite a few beginning artists start by using torrents to get their music out. make an album, give away three sample songs for free, then charge $3 for the rest and they'd be making more money per album than beyonce.

reply to post by Sequitur


The value of art is in the creation not in the delivery. Delivery of music is entertainment. With your logic, it's only worth seeing a movie if all the actors are out on stage performing live. If there was only money from the performance of a song you wrote, why bother writing a song? Just perform songs created by other suckers.

Song-writing is incredibly difficult. Performing, on the other hand, is just acting out on muscle memory. Unless they improvise, there's little art involved. You're paying for the entertainment, not the time, sleepless nights, and create genius that went into the composition of what you see and hear.

reply to post by Andronian


Any reason why you keep replying to other posters with the same copy and paste statement/sentences? Just curious.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by Jepic

 

Copyright infringment doesn't just happen online. You can't control the sneaker net.

How are you going to sue people in places where it isn't illegal?

I'll have a word with the representatives, probably ban my CD's in that country to minimize losses.