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Man-made Pandemic Spreading? ...Bioterrorism: What They Don't Want You to Know.

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posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 02:05 AM
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reply to post by soficrow
 

I can't believe this thread has not gotten more attention. Excellent information and alarming information everyone should know about.

Also, please people, stop with this waste of time asking about sources, proof, etc. I'm not as familiar with soficrow as some others evidently are, but it was obvious even to me, an unknown, that his/her information was finely detailed and thoroughly plausible. Don't waste anymore of his/her time on the ridiculous.

Back on topic, for so many years, many have theorized about the potential final downfall of mankind - the most common opinion being that of nuclear annihilation; however, I personally think that something like this - a biological disaster or bioterrorism - is a much greater threat. To think that this potential downfall might be the result of greed over lack of sharing information sends chills down my spine.

Excellent post about very important, albeit disconcerting, information. Even though I'll probably lose more sleep tonight, I rather lose it due to unsettling knowledge as opposed to naive ignorance.

Thanks for a great post and definite S&F.


Timidgal




posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 07:52 AM
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Great research. And yeah it's being man made.

We are being killed by pollution, (but eh, let's fearmongering about CO2 all day) man-made viruses (which is why we could predict the swine flu virus release two months before it actually happened), vaccines contaminated with mercury and that kind of stuff, food being genetically modified, (when it's not contaminated by lead or other toxic products)... and if you want to get out of that system (not take vaccines, eat homegrown food/non-GMO food) you are labelled an extremist, a conspiracy theorist, a terrorist even.

So yeah, there's man made pandemics spreading, for big money from big pharma, owned by the same people who brought you wars in the middle-east, AIDS, cancer, swine flu virus...

We'll see more of them as they intensify their war on humanity and continue to try to reduce population while saying it's viruses and it's all normal... (if at least they could produce a zombie virus....
)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Hey soficrow nice thread. Good job keeping your eye on this ball, because it is an odious and horrible ball, for someone to keep their eye on. Frankly, I couldn't keep looking at this kind of stuff, but I am glad you do. It's basically you and a few people versus trillions of dollars and thousands of paid asshead science workers against you, who want to lie to the masses. So for you to keep trying to fight for truth, means a lot, even if you are utterly and totally outnumbered and get little to no support from any forum on the Internet. That is to say, if I tuned in CNN tomorrow and they had "special guest ATS member soficrow" on the TV, well, it would mean the CNN no longer sucks as badly, does that make sense? YOU have more integrity and focus than any US teevee news outlet, is what I'm sayin.

Well so yeah I read your post, and it sounds like these virii are bouncing around between people, incubating in groups, etc. It also sounds like the PowersThatBe are still happy to guide humanity's eyes from that fact. They need to distract the hosts, while infecting the hosts. That's pretty standard stuff for evil to do.

Sounds like 1: They're purposefully infecting the population, 2: They ignore this truth on the media, and 3: there's nothing to stop them until they DO finally ignite the large die-off they're hoping for. So, see, I'm not very cheery about these things.

But I am also very hopeful. So there are rays of light shining in. Allow me to describe one ray of light and what has shaped it.

First off, it was Executive Eisenhower (Ike) who with his last words, told us to be wary of institutions. He said they would get more power than ever has been consolidated on Earth. Then, after Ike, it was JFK who lived for almost three years before being executed by those same powers. Therefore, imo, JFK's martyrdom was a silent signal that Ike had warned us correctly: Institutions run the world and can murder any president, or any citizen, or say 90% of all people on Earth. In fact as a youth in the Jehovah's Witnesses church, I heard them plan regularly, for 90% of the people on Earth to be killed by angry God, so I know that somewhere at the top, there's a cadre of evil tards who are planning for a mostly depopulated Earth. Sadly.

Of course, Obama and Bush, obey that policy just fine, they are happy to assume the post-JFK bloody crown of power, and they (being criminals) are not inclined to investigate JFK's death or Ike's warning --their job as stooge executives in to just push the cart forward. So again: With leaders like these, we are without hope. I'd say there's little except perhaps "ET intervention", that can stop these large-scale murders on a planetwide scale via bio-engineered viruses.

However, keeping with the hopeful aspects of what COULD happen, I'd say that Lee Harvey Oswald's girlfriend Judith Harvey Baker, is the true master key, to unlocking the last 60 years.



doctormarysmonkey.com...

At the end of Feb.1969, during the closing arguments of the trial arising from Jim Garrison's investigation into the JFK Assassination, Assistant District Attorney James Alcock mentioned a witness had reported seeing a woman other than Marina Oswald in a car with Lee Harvey Oswald during the Summer of 1963.

Mr. Edwin Lea McGehee, the barber from Jackson, Louisiana testified that Lee Harvey Oswald came into his barber shop in late August or early September 1963 and that Oswald arrived in an old battered automobile and that "there was a woman sitting on the front seat."

Asst. DA James Alcock concluded his comments by explaining to the jury that the State could not identify the woman, but they knew she was not Marina Oswald.


doctormarysmonkey.com...
^^^ Sadly these youtoobes seem to have been removed.


doctormarysmonkey.com...
^^^ Proof that Judy Baker was a secret death scientist..

If one studies this new information about Judy Baker, it becomes clear that Oswald was a double agent. This woman, also, was involved in funding and discovering virulent cancers.

So what I am saying, is that this woman, Judy Baker, is probably the single most important woman alive, for two reasons: 1: She can explain the inconsistencies in the JFK killing, which was done by the same people who want to kill via viruses today (as per you thread here), and 2: She herself was a gifted researcher of cancers and microscopic killing schemes and can explain the folly of that.

So what I'm saying is that there are lots of Lee Oswalds and lots of Judy Bakers, alive and well, today. Therefore I am saying that this woman, could somehow connect with and HEAL, the brains and hearts, of those hungry little death-tard scientists that are walking down the same path that she and her super-Patriot boyfriend Lee Oswald walked down. If anything can cause them to turn back from their evil paycheck, it's Judy's story.
edit on 17-12-2011 by smallpeeps because: hmmm



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by Merci
 



Vaccines today are suspect.

......Studies on disorders, even in autism, have shown high levels of immune cytokines and excitotoxins in the nervous system. These destructive chemicals, as well as the free radicals they generate, are diffused throughout the nervous system doing damage, a process called bystander injury.

....adults vaccinated yearly for five years in a row with the flu vaccine had a 10-fold increased risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease. He attributes this to the mercury and aluminum in the vaccine. Interestingly, both of these metals have been shown to activate microglia and increase excitotoxicity in the brain.

What is seen is a viscous cycle of immune activation, excitotoxin and cytokine excretion, and free radical production.


I agree that vaccinations are dangerous - my research shows that exposures to metals like mercury and aluminum activate and exacerbate already present epigenetic disease related to infectious misfolded proteins. I also think the idea of vaccination is ill-conceived, and have written fairly extensively about my concerns and criticisms here on ATS. I do NOT take vaccines, and recommend against them. But I don't want to focus exclusively on vaccines in this thread because I think they're only part of a much larger problem. However....

At present, vaccines and anti-virals are the only defense we have against virulent viruses - mainly because our governments and Big Pharma already invested in vaccines, and vaccine manufacturing, and have NO motivation to find other solutions. I strongly believe that if scientific information was shared freely between scientists, someone somewhere would find an alternative approach to infectious disease. The "competitive" paradigm prevents creative problem-solving and discourages searching for alternate solutions.

IF scientific information - including biological information - was shared freely between scientists, we would NOT be at this impasse. As it is, everyone's scrambling at the last minute to stick their finger in the dike - and make a fortune doing it. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The larger problems outlined in this thread include:

1. The chronic disease NCD Pandemic,
2. The looming flu pandemic, and
3. The fact that our leaders are defining and responding to these crises and their unavoidable convergence as purely economic issues, not health or human issues.

1. The chronic disease NCD Pandemic

There is no doubt that vaccines contribute to creating chronic disease - so do most other "medications," especially those that target proteins, which most do. There also is no doubt that pollution and common contaminants cause chronic disease - as do processed foods and now, whole foods grown in contaminated soil and irrigated with contaminated water. In many areas of the world including North America, even rain contains persistent organic pollutants. Not to mention radiation particles. The problem is systemic, because our global economic system is built around polluting, contaminating industries. Now, half the world is sick and getting sicker; most who think they're healthy are deluded, and actually are only temporarily abled. The only apparent solution is to clean up the world and rely on evolution to bring us back to health as a species.

Can we back up and start over? How?

2. The looming flu pandemic

The only defense in the public health arsenal are vaccines and anti-virals. The vaccines likely are worse than the disease, and the anti-virals don't work. Acute infections require ventilators, and there are NOT anywhere near enough to go around. Moreover, the new policies in play (written or not) do not support life-saving interventions - simply because survivors are expected to have long term chronic problems.

The main issue with infection is the immune reaction - "healthy" immune systems go into overdrive and kill the host; already stressed immune systems do not have the ability to fight so hard, but the inflammation activates underlying chronic disease, causing it to progress.

We ALL need to brush up on the old at-home remedies, focusing on how to "bring down the fever."

3. Is the situation an economic issue or a public health and human issue?

As it stands, our leaders' goal is to preserve the economy at the expense of human health.

Can we do both? Preserve the economy and protect human health? How? Should we dismantle the global industrial economy to protect human health? How?



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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OP, you have written in the post above, that vaccinations are a problem, but that there is a more specific sector that is of concern here.

And I would say that really, it would be best to examine the attack vector, of the elites, against the human race. That attack vector, is the needle. The hypo syringe. It is the most horrible weapon ever invented, and also at the same time, it is the most amazing tool ever invented. Yes, one could say, that the needle and the atomic bomb, are twins born from the same womb of world's war 1 and world's war 2.

The needle was used as a weapon before Hitler even got his training wheels. The Eugenics crowd also used breeding experiments like Oneida community (a nice idea in many respects) in the time after the US civil war. So the needle actually predates the atomic bomb by several decades, from a weapons perspective. So it would be more correct to say that the needle and long-range cannons, are born from the same war-womb which gives us so much of our medicine and our killing patents.



en.wikipedia.org...

wiki/Hypodermic_needle

History

The modern hypodermic needle is generally said to have been invented in 1853, although Galen was familiar with the concept.[1] Robert Boyle and Christopher Wren experimented with syringe-like devices in 1657,[2] and 18th-century physician Dominique Anel created the modern pump syringe as a device to clean wounds using suction.[2]

Charles Pravaz (1791–1853), French surgeon, and Alexander Wood (1817–1884), Scottish physician, independently invented the hypodermic syringe.

In all these cases, it was impossible to perform injections without an incision until Irish physician Francis Rynd invented the hollow needle in 1844.




en.wikipedia.org...

/wiki/Artillery - Modern_era - age_of_rifled_guns

Rifling had been tried on small arms in the 15th Century. The machinery to accurately rifle a cannon barrel did not arrive until the 19th Century. Cavelli, Wahrendorff, and Whitworth all independently produced rifled cannon in the 1840s, but these guns did not see widespread use until the latter stages of the American Civil War, when designs such as the various caliber Rodman guns came to prominence.

From the 1860s artillery was forced into a series of rapid technological and operational changes, accelerating through the 1870s and thereafter. The first effective breech-loader (allowing a higher rate of fire while keeping the detachment behind the gun) was developed in 1855 by Sir William Armstrong, and accepted for British service in 1859. The first cannon to contain all 'modern' features is generally considered to be the French 75 of 1897 with its cased ammunition, effective breech-loading, modern sights, self-contained firing mechanism, and hydro-pneumatic recoil dampening.


So to understand the battles, you have to understand at what time, technology was gifted to the humans. At what time, did the needle tech come around, and what other techs came with it? That is the key here. Yes it is true, needles, cannons and even plants, have both salvation and damnation encoded into them, as all technology has.



en.wikipedia.org...

/wiki/Alkaloids

Studies of alkaloids began in the 19th century. In 1804, the German chemist Friedrich Sertürner isolated from opium a "soporific principle" (Latin: principium somniferum), which he called "morphium" in honor of Morpheus, the Greek god of dreams; in German and some other Central-European languages, this is still the name of the drug. The term "morphine", used in English and French, was given by the French physicist Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac).

A significant contribution to the chemistry of alkaloids in the early years of its development was made by the French researchers Pierre Joseph Pelletier and Joseph Bienaimé Caventou, who discovered quinine (1820) and strychnine (1818). Several other alkaloids were discovered around that time, including xanthine (1817), atropine (1819), caffeine (1820), coniine (1827), nicotine (1828), colchicine (1833), sparteine (1851), and coc aine (1860).[21]

The first complete synthesis of an alkaloid was achieved in 1886 by the German chemist Albert Ladenburg. He produced coniine by reacting 2-methylpyridine with acetaldehyde and reducing the resulting 2-propenyl pyridine with sodium.[22][23] The development of the chemistry of alkaloids was accelerated by the emergence of spectroscopic and chromatographic methods in the 20th century, so that by 2008 more than 12,000 alkaloids had been identified.[24]



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by timidgal
 



....for so many years, many have theorized about the potential final downfall of mankind - the most common opinion being that of nuclear annihilation; however, I personally think that something like this - a biological disaster or bioterrorism - is a much greater threat. To think that this potential downfall might be the result of greed over lack of sharing information sends chills down my spine.


Chills, yes. Greed over lack of sharing; greed for profit; greed for more. Too much greed to stop creating disease because - hey! - the world is overpopulated anyway.



Excellent post about very important, albeit disconcerting, information. Even though I'll probably lose more sleep tonight, I rather lose it due to unsettling knowledge as opposed to naive ignorance.


My sentiments exactly. And thanks to you too, timidgal. Great post.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Vitchilo
 



yeah it's being man made.

We are being killed by pollution, ....man-made viruses (which is why we could predict the swine flu virus release two months before it actually happened), vaccines contaminated with mercury and that kind of stuff, food being genetically modified, (when it's not contaminated by lead or other toxic products)...

So yeah, there's man made pandemics spreading, for big money from big pharma, owned by the same people who brought you wars in the middle-east, AIDS, cancer, swine flu virus...


Thanks Vitchilo. ...Yeah, it all comes together in a seriously negative way - the pollution, toxins, contaminants, additives, pathogens - and it's killing us. It's not just Big Pharma who profits from the "oversights," but all the other industries spewing their wastes into our world, and creating dangerous crap to boot.

....Just as a pojnt of fact - the 2009 swine flu pandemic was predicted LONG before "2 months before it happened." As stated in my article on that pandemic, triple assortment H1N1 swine flu first infected people in Wisconsin in 1998 - it bounced around the US for years before Mexico got hit and talked about it.

AND - factory farms create WAY more diseases accidentally than anything else. Except maybe the food processing industry, Big Pharma and oil.


Scientific American: U.S. Pig Farms May Be 'Flu Factories'






edit on 17/12/11 by soficrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by smallpeeps
 



Sounds like 1: They're purposefully infecting the population,


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that creating diseases and causing pandemics is a well-known side-effect of having industry - a consequence that's overlooked and allowed. ...Somebody somewhere did a "risk-benefit analysis" and decided that a whole bunch of sick and dead people is acceptable collateral damage.



3: there's nothing to stop them until they DO finally ignite the large die-off they're hoping for.


I'm not so sure about that. We have some great researchers, thinkers and analysts here on ATS. I'm hoping that our membership might make this a project. Working title: Remake the World.


PS. Thanks so much for your posts and contributions smallpeeps. I'm trying to get to everyone's responses in order. Sorry it's taking so long.


edit on 17/12/11 by soficrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by smallpeeps
 



Sounds like 1: They're purposefully infecting the population,


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that creating diseases and causing pandemics is a well-known side-effect of having industry - a consequence that's overlooked and allowed. ...Somebody somewhere did a "risk-benefit analysis" and decided that a whole bunch of sick and dead people is acceptable collateral damage.


Okay yes, I understand. So I implied that they are pulling the trigger themselves, which is not true.

They are instead, filing forms and using bureaucracy to allow someone else, some paycheck-worker, to take the killshot or the percentage-killshot I mean. It's not like every syringe is loaded with the kill. Just like in a firing squad it's the governor who can stop it, but just to make the trigger-pull easier for the riflemen, he'll give half of them blanks. Similarly, some needles are loaded and some are not, so the paycheck-getting trigger people who inject the vaccine, can feel that they are not the ones who killed the masses. It's simple psychology.

I know, I sound "like a conspiracy researcher". But if you call me a "theorist" I might bristle a little. I think it's clear that rather than being a theory, conspiracy is the water which the boats of nations float upon.

Seriously I love your work and your attitude. Sure, it could all be just by accident. Mass global slaughter of millions throughout the 20th Century, could just be a giant "whoops my bad!" on the part of Earth's controllers. Let's go with that.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by smallpeeps
 



Sure, it could all be just by accident. Mass global slaughter of millions throughout the 20th Century, could just be a giant "whoops my bad!" on the part of Earth's controllers. Let's go with that.


lol. I'm not saying there's no purposeful nastiness - I know there is. My point is that the changes industries (including the war industry) have made to the earth are fundamental and now, substantial - and they're spiralling out of control. That's the BIG accident. Evolution has taken over - protein evolution, microbial evolution, viral evolution - and on to our own human species' mutation and evolution.

The point is - nature is in control now. And we're not gonna like it.




edit on 17/12/11 by soficrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow

My point is that the changes industries (including the war industry) have made to the earth are fundamental and now, substantial - and they're spiralling out of control. That's the BIG accident.


I hear you.

They do however, always have contingencies for "The Big Accident" meaning they are sizing up lots of saddles whereby they intend to ride the "pale horse" itself.

I am saying that the primary era is 1840, when opium and the hollow needle and also long range artillery, came online. That is the tech triangle with which we are faced. That is where all the control via vaccines and diseases got going. It's 170 years ago, but so are the formative events of our nation and this world.

Opium and the needle were essentially born from the same event in time. These (in the opium wars) became the weapon of today. Therefore, I would say your quest is to resolve the needle itself. For how shall we control who depresses the plunger? There are junkies using needles as well as drone medical workers. I wonder if anyone notices one or the other?

For example: The people who made the flu vaccine admitted that they accidentally put H1N1 virus into some batches. Yet you won't see a single doctor discuss that issue. It's like "What? No, I didn't even read that!" Go ahead, have a nice chat with a doctor about the H1N1 in batches of "flu defender" shots. They simply will not have anything to say in response. They are taught to dissonate when they see the truth right in front of them. They will press the needle forward, with unquestioning faith in Hippocrates' ghost.

Still, this thread may resolve that. Keep it going.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 04:09 PM
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This was an article I stumbled across which made me instantly think of your efforts. Very strange as to why crows would be affected but not hens? And this dude here says it's H1N1 but how can we trust anything these people say anyway?



www.sott.net...

A.S.R.P. Mukesh
The Telegraph
Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:37 CST

[...]

Earlier, tests at Jamshedpur - considered to be the epicentre of crow deaths - revealed conflicting results. National Institute of Virology, Pune, drew a blank, the state animal husbandry department dithered about citing a specific virus and Indian Veterinary Research Institute in Bareilly said H5N1, one of the deadliest avian virus strains, was the culprit.

Director of state animal husbandry department A.G. Bandyopadhyay told The Telegraph that the visit of Negi and Khanna was an attempt to find out why only crows were dying, not poultry. "No hens are dying, only crows," he said, adding all animal husbandry officials across the districts were put on 24X7 alert to monitor the deaths.

edit on 17-12-2011 by smallpeeps because: hmm



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by smallpeeps
 


Interesting, yes. I started a thread on it here.

Re: 1840, opium, needles and artillery. Your ideas are very interesting.
I agree - most of these dynamics started with the Industrial Revolution, but I also think there's a lot more to it than just opium, needles and artillery. BTW - one of my favorite conspiracy theories is that the 'elite' contaminated the first mass vaccines with their own diseased serum in hopes that some peasant or another might develop an immunity, allowing the elite to harvest the new immune serum and save their failing bloodline.



The First Industrial Revolution, which began in the 18th century, merged into the Second Industrial Revolution around 1850, when technological and economic progress gained momentum with the development of steam-powered ships, railways, and later in the 19th century with the internal combustion engine and electrical power generation. The period of time covered by the Industrial Revolution varies with different historians. Eric Hobsbawm held that it 'broke out' in Britain in the 1780s and was not fully felt until the 1830s or 1840s,[7] while T. S. Ashton held that it occurred roughly between 1760 and 1830.[8]


But back to the topic.

The media spin is setting people up to "blame the terrorists" (again) when the pandemic hits. In fact, scientists have been watching -and warning- about the dangers of evolving disease for some time. Industrial activities like factory farming play a huge role in creating new infectious diseases - but the system is set up to save the system and sacrifice the people.

As far as pandemic chronic disease goes, the media spin is focused on "blaming the victims" - when clearly, industrial activities should be in the spotlight.

Finally, we're entering a time when decisions about who lives or dies will be made without any public input or participation.








edit on 17/12/11 by soficrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 09:46 PM
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more important data, thanks.

i've found that immediately responding to anything "inflammation" related, by ingesting super spicy foods and drinks (like spicy v-8), paired with anti inflammatories like ibuprofen, is particularly useful. also the application of heat for an hour, followed by cold for an hour, topically (not whole room temp as that would wear down your immune system). probably why the old mustard poultices were effective for treatment of inflammatory upper respiratory conditions.



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:17 PM
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Text placebos have the same effect as a placebo.


This thread is a text placebo..





posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by SelfSustainedLoner
 


I would take great exception to that comment, but it's clear you didn't even scan the text and are speaking out of ignorance. ...Why don't you read it, and get back to me?



posted on Dec, 17 2011 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Good advice.


I go with at least a teaspoon of cinnamon daily, plus lots of curry or turmeric, cumin, sage and thyme. Used to make "medicine tea" for colds and flu with lots of hot peppers, cayenne, chilis, onions, garlic and ginger in chicken broth. Tastes like crap but works.



posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by undo
 


Good advice.


I go with at least a teaspoon of cinnamon daily, plus lots of curry or turmeric, cumin, sage and thyme. Used to make "medicine tea" for colds and flu with lots of hot peppers, cayenne, chilis, onions, garlic and ginger in chicken broth. Tastes like crap but works.




yeah what you said. valentina sauce with pepper.

cayenne on everything (even in your hand lotion, which then turns into a muscle rub like poultice, just apply towel and hope you didn't have any boo-boos on your skin. yeoouch. ) i also take powerful anti-oxidants like grape seed extract and alpha lipoic acid. and if you're going with antibiotics like garlic, good idea to add acidophilus into your diet once the issue is resolved, so you don't get secondary yeast infections.

some people take echinacea for all manner of infections, viral or bacterial, but i can't take it. my lymph nodes swell up and burst, when i do. people with auto immune problems are not supposed to take it as it actually is an immune system stimulant. and i have some weird residual issues from a mycoplasmic infection that put me in a coma for 5 days, about 17 years ago, and it seems to have some funky immune system complication.



posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by SelfSustainedLoner
 


I would take great exception to that comment, but it's clear you didn't even scan the text and are speaking out of ignorance. ...Why don't you read it, and get back to me?


I already did, why do you think I even posted?


I would have had something better to say if what you posted in the OP was not based on prediction. You provide no sources about H5N1, Nor do you show any proof of domestic and wild birds that have this H5N1 virus. You are leaving it up to the user who reads it to do their own research. Why do you think you have so little comments thus far?

I'll stick with text placebo.



posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by SelfSustainedLoner
 


References and links cut due to space limits, the OP took 2 posts without them. First list of references, several posts down. More throughout, ie., here, and here.



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