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Census data: Half of U.S. poor or low income

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posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Biigs
crazy thing just occured to me: if the run away health care and family financal support, they tend to be good ONLY ofr that family.

What if you got MORE tax relief from the goverment for having just a few kids, rather than more money from more kids like we got now.

This is more focused on the UK mind.


You'll run into issues like China, where they're now projected to have a serious lack of young people due to population control (1-child policy). Money would be to great a motivator for a lot of people. What we really need is proper education, and basic finance for everyone. People need to stop acting like morons and making 5 kids when they can barely support their partner. Condoms aren't that expensive, and you can even get them for free in tons of places...




posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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If half of Americans are poor, if they moved to Canada that number would skyrocket.

In Canada, we pay more for everything from booze to diapers to gas to houses. We routinely go to the US shopping because it is so cheap. 1 gallon of milk in Canada is $5. There was a sale on at Meijers where you got 2 gallons for $5. We alo pay about $4.50/gallon for gas. Crazy!



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms
 



This isn't a third world country so your comparison doesn't work.


Oh?

The "poor" in this nation have, as a set of basic amenities, the things people kill each other for in other nations.


People have every right to complain because they have put in their part into adding to this countries' wealth.


No, no - that's not the case at all.

People have a right to honest business and banking practices. To do that, a number of things must happen (dissolving the Federal Reserve, getting rid of Social Security, creating an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that forever bans relationships between business and government like the case of Fannie and Freddie, a return to a backed standard of currency, etc).

However - the problem is that people are stupid. They took out loans they couldn't afford, pay into credit cards before their savings account, etc.

You'll find that success and financial stability in this nation share a direct link between income and average annual credits to the savings account.


You cannot be rich in this country without the help of your fellow man's blood, sweat and tears.


Ah, the humanist approach.

Do you understand the free market? It is the idea that anyone can take his or her talents, abilities, knowledge, and/or skills and apply them to the needs and wants of others in exchange for goods, services, or a standard medium of exchange (money - capital).

Wealth is the value one has in society. A doctor with rare knowledge and expertise in diagnosing and treating illness is going to be more highly valued than a janitor. Or, I should say, his/her services will be valued above those of a janitor. Just about anyone can be a janitor - including the doctor.

Thus, in order to be wealthy, one must contribute value to society. This value will persist through changes in the economic trends (although market trends will influence the value of services, as will education and employment trends).

That doesn't mean: "I work my ass off and deserve the same as some computer programmer who sits behind a desk" - it may be true that you (and others) work very hard. The problem is that physically demanding jobs are not always the highest value. Skills, trades, and the like are always beneficial.

I would say a college education is worth something - but it is really a poor example. You have a bunch of idiots with no career history getting a Master's in business or a bachelor's in performing arts - then expecting to make a living using that degree. Trades are far more valuable and practical. Welding tends to be in fairly high demand, along with machinists. Granted, that does depend upon what field you are looking in - but so many people simply waste their years of schooling on degrees that have little application to starting a career.


You funny thing is that I pretty much agree with all you said. I have problems with the accepting loans that they cannot pay for part because I believe it's not so clean cut in that sense. But rather than get side tracked, I'll state the things that we do agree with.

I do not believe that everyone should be paid equally and do believe that a person should be paid based upon the value that his work or expertise contributes to the larger society. I also believe in fair banking and business practices and that certain institutions need to be abolished and certain regulations put in (such as a no business to government relationship). I can go on and on with different points you made and sum up that I am pretty much on the same boat thinking wise, but yes I also have a humanistic part to me which at times runs counter to my business and captialistic understandings.

Such as the ability for an individual to make disgustingly gross (subjective opinion) amounts of wealth while contributing nothing in return. While individuals that do contribute to advances in society (scientists, school teachers etc..) get paid pennies. Regardless of whichever way you look at it or whatever model you believe in, when a society allows for 6 individuals to make more than 100 million individuals, there is something wrong.



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by joyride0187
There is a very simple solution to all of this. People need to STOP having kids if they cannot afford to raise them.



That's Step one.


Step two: Would be stop buying every Goddamn thing under the sun [All Made in China] if you don't need it and save some money for a rainy day.


Step Three: There is nothing wrong, Taboo or Politically incorrect about supporting American made products, businesses and Industry which employs Americans.



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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Funny in a way all of these threads popping up lately. There are very poor Americans that is true, there are in fact a great many poor Americans. They go day to day wondering if they will eat and where they will sleep.

Most though that consider themselves poor are only "poor" by American standards. Everyone would like to have more; there is no doubt about that. The reality though is most fail to accept that they will not have what some have. Sure it would be cool to have many things the rich do, at the same time I understand I am blessed to have a home and food to put into my stomach. I know that my son will eat whenever he decides he is hungry. I pray he will never know what it is like to really be hungry, and by that I mean starving.

There was a thread that popped up just the other day about minimum wage going to $10 in SF. That is great, at least for a short time. Anyone with a brain knows prices will soon increase there and the increased minimum wage will no longer be of help. Not to mention that there will be a few layoffs from those who need to compensate the increased costs. The work load will simply fall on fewer people.

Let's look at this for a moment. There was another thread about how much minimum wage is in AUS as compared to what it is in the US. I am not knocking AUS or even the higher wages they earn, but those higher wages show in other costs throughout the country. How much is gasoline there compared to the US? How much does the average car cost as compared to there? What is the average cost of living? Even a fellow poster from Canada brought up the cost of things in the US as compared to there.

Sure there are poor Americans and a lot of them. There are also a great deal of Americans who refuse to try to live above their means as compared to living comfortably. My home is only a $70k home. I do not know anyone I work with that has a home cheaper than $100k, I am sure someone there must have one under that but I have not found one that it came up in conversation with yet. Many I know also drive cars no older than 5 years old. I do not own one newer than 8 years old, and unlike them I do my own maintenance on the vehicles because it is cheaper than having someone else do it. Granted there are some things I have to pay others to do, but normal care I do myself.

I seen entertainment brought up also in this thread. I do not own a new game box as many do. Not only do they cost too much but so do their games. I have internet and play free games when I choose to do that. I do not go to the movies that is insane to pay those prices, I either rent or wait for it to be on the TV. I do not go to concerts, or buy new CDs either. Those cost too much as well. You can stream music for free, or listen to the radio for free.

The thing is most Americans are spoiled and they are too set in their ways to admit it. Admitting it would make them look bad to others. After all everyone knows how superficial, greedy, and materialistic the population has become. Look at hen the iPhone first hit the market or anything new comes out. Look at the Black Friday videos and the mobs of people running to buy stuff they do not need.

Recently I decided I wanted a new cell phone, as mine is just not working up to the standards I would like. I seen one that was exactly what I wanted. They told me I could get it for $250 plus a new two year contract or buy the phone outright. I told them no thanks and left. I refused to pay more than $20 for a phone at most. I found the same phone (well my wife found it I was not that concerned) for one penny, plus an $18 fee of some kind. This I found acceptable. I did not need a phone I simply wanted it thus I was not about to pay the costs that many are paying. I like to pay what I feel things are worth to me. I grew up "poor" in the standards of most. I was not poor by world standards though simply just not as well off as others. Now I fit well into the lower spectrum of middle class (what remains of it) and still am much "poorer" than many. However I live rather comfortably, there is nothing I really need. I know I can go and buy food whenever I please. I pay bills and give to charity (to who, what and how much/often is for me to know), I live to my own standards not the worlds (societies) standards.

Raist

edit on 12/15/11 by Raist because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
That's Step one.


Step two: Would be stop buying every Goddamn thing under the sun [All Made in China] if you don't need it and save some money for a rainy day.


Step Three: There is nothing wrong, Taboo or Politically incorrect about supporting American made products, businesses and Industry which employs Americans.


The only problem is we cost more than a communist countries workers, so instead of coming up off their own fortunes or taking time to start new (I say "new", but these industries were mostly originally here in the US) enterprises. The people that run these corporations would simply charge more for their products and boom, inflation goes through the roof and tomorrow we are in the next widespread national depression while the few that are already rich live comfortably through it.

They apparently have no affinity for America or it's people. I wouldn't count on any of these people to come out of their own pockets even if it was a single dollar, especially if the US would potentially enter a period of economic depression. The government will even defend them by law, regardless of ethical concern.

Then they'll just be there for the next time around, all the while lining their pockets with diamonds and our gold. Regardless, I think your right about people not buying this Chinese #, we can deal with our own trash in time I suppose. In the meantime we won't be able to do hardly anything without the entirety of our society that is built in China and ALL people will endure hardships, until US industries are built one way or another.
edit on 15-12-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 06:39 PM
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I doesn't take a genius to figure this one out, unemployment numbers are manufactured, the unemployment in the US is way higher than the government wants people to know.

When you are following the economy in this nation you have to know that for already many years even before the 2008 market crash, this nation was having negative numbers on tax revenue, this doesn't happen because out of nowhere Americans decide to go on part time from full time, lost of tax revenue for the government means that less and less people are working, and more and more people are working but still Dependant on government assistance this is call working poor this is what is becoming of the once middle class in the nation.



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by RSF77
 



The only problem is we cost more than a communist countries workers, so instead of coming up off their own fortunes or taking time to start new (I say "new", but these industries were mostly originally here in the US) enterprises. The people that run these corporations would simply charge more for their products and boom, inflation goes through the roof and tomorrow we are in the next widespread national depression while the few that are already rich live comfortably through it.


This is a rather skewed view of things.

The reason the U.S. had such a long history of wealth was due to several factors during several different eras:

Pre-1800, it was due largely to the newly found resources that we sat upon. Lumber was in incomprehensibly large supply - used in a lot of carpentry and shipbuilding for overseas buyers. Furs and agricultural goods (such as tobacco and cotton) also fueled much of the wealth this nation enjoyed.

Afterward, it was our adaptation of industrial advances to produce more refined goods locally that drove our industry into the 1850s, when the mining of harder metals like iron and coal began to form the backbone of our nation through the 1960s.

About the 1900s, however, several key things happened. Electricity and use of it became far more widespread. You also had the first aircraft being produced in the U.S. - This turned America into something of a S&T powerhouse, fueled by a booming and ever-more-capable industrial component.

We were producing the most technologically and industrially advanced machinations on the planet - spare for a few niche markets.

Up through the 80s, it was this industrial and technological advantage that gave us a massive export market.

Compare that to today. We stopped advancing. It isn't because the advances have all gone overseas (in fact, many countries refuse to allow automated and advanced plants, because they wish to see companies move in and employ people) - it's because we've exhausted many of our market advantages that we've held for an outstanding 250+ years.

In short - we are "supposed" to be building space stations and mining asteroids by now - something that would have preserved our techno-industrial advantage over the rest of the world (with our 'lesser' industry being shifted over to other nations as we inherit larger and more advanced markets). We aren't - for reasons that are both within and outside of our control. Government is too large and plays too much of a role in influencing markets and suppressing start-ups, for one. However - some things simply didn't advance far enough in the predicted direction to make some of the projected markets viable.

It all boils down to the U.S. having to compete in a way that it is not used to. We are used to being one of the only nations capable of undertaking the industrial challenges of the day. This is no longer the case. There are plenty of offerings, the world over, and it is putting us into a crunch we were simply not prepared for.



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 11:20 PM
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I saw on CNN last night where there was a family of 3 living on less than 20k. It didn't say HOW they originally got their house - I got the impression that the husband USED to have a better paying job but is now doing selling his art.
I thought - Ok, well, my family tops that - we are living on less than 17k.

The thing is, the family on CNN had state sponsored health insurance.

We have none, and it's scary. Not that we aren't working - my skilled hubby now goes out in the cold at 5am several mornings a week trying to sell tools - he can't find a regular job JOB like we used to think of one - one that pays a decent wage for full time work AND has benefits.

We have a house and 2 trucks- they were paid for before well before the economy crashed in 2007- the youngest is a 2001 truck. We have the internet. We have to in order to make the 17k, to get coupons, homeschool, ect. lol

I saw several nice tvs today for 13.00 at Goodwill.
Don't tell me that because someone has a tv they are doing ok.

What we cannot afford is insurance so our son can drive- can't afford college either for him, but he really wants to be a costume maker anyway, and he's doing ok with it so I don't think college is going to be a huge deal, like if he wanted to be a engineer. A lot of stuff is out of our reach right now.
edit on 15-12-2011 by hadriana because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by Aim64C
 


IMHO it has to do with treason, not allowing these individuals to sell us out at their whim.

I don't see how that is a skewed view when American's turn against other American's for the benefit of their own prosperity, I see that as treason.
edit on 15-12-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by RSF77
 



I don't see how that is a skewed view when American's turn against other American's for the benefit of their own prosperity, I see that as treason.


It all boils down to market dynamics.

Lower costs to manufacture a product translate to a product that can be sold for less. If all of your cell phones were made in the U.S. - most people couldn't afford them.

The same with your clothing - or anything, for that matter.

America became wealthy by selling to the wealthy of other nations and being -the- provider of many market demands.

However, when one pipe fitting made in China costs 60% on the shelf by comparison to one made in the U.S., and all things being equal between the two... what are you going to choose?

Or, let's look at it another way... for someone in the middle class, what does a 40% reduction in plumbing materials do for them? It allows them to spend that money on other things - such as flooring or furniture in construction that would have otherwise been foregone.

The problem with China is that it's a one-way street. They clone other nations' products in violation of internationally respected copyrights and then refuse to sell products from other nations in their own country. That is, really, the biggest problem with China.

Industry and labor going to where it is cheaper to produce is nothing new or even all that destructive. Reduced costs translate to more of a nation's wealth being spent on other markets - many of which could be local, developing markets that would, otherwise, be seen as frivolous or cost-prohibitive pursuits.

But, you see it how you want to.

Who am I to stand in the way of a witch hunt?



posted on Dec, 16 2011 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


If there was anything still made in America I would buy it.
I read the labels and even the little cans of mushrooms I
buy come from china.I am afraid to buy produce from the
west coast because of the radiation from Japan.I am afraid
to buy produce from florida because of the BP oil spill.

The banana I ate earlier came from Guatemala.Too many
produce items come from south of the border.I did buy
dwarf fruit trees but I won't get any fruit from them for about
2-3 more years.



posted on Dec, 16 2011 @ 12:20 AM
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Here's the thing I don't think people understand anymore America use to pride itself on behind ahead of anyone.Yes Poor Americans have things poor people in other countries don't have but that's because WE'RE AMERICA. That's what we were founded on! The idea that this country would have the best quality of life in the world. That was what America was synonymous We no longer have that. Do we have poor people with TVs and Cars? Sure but they're also in huge amounts of debt , have to work themselves to death just to scrape by and enjoy those things. That's not what America should be about or stand for. America should be a country in which people can live comfortably and happily.

But it'snot and it probably will never be again. Because selfishness , greed and a lack of empathy have ruined this country as well documented by many of the replies in this thread. This country is in really really bad shape when an report as shocking and saddening as this is just ignored because "Hey it's still better then a third world country." America shouldn't pride itself on having poor people live better then people in Nigeria , It should pride itself on BEING THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD but we've become complacent

.

.



posted on Dec, 16 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by Matt93
 


You're entirely right. Context is important and yet context is lost in reports like this.

Cost of living is a bit lower in the U.S. than elsewhere (although the government has been seemingly intent on changing all that lately).

And, for a little context:



American households in the top income quintile have almost five times more family members working on average than the lowest quintile, and … are far more likely … to be well-educated, married, and working full-time in their prime earning years. In contrast, individuals in low-income households are far more likely to be less-educated, working part-time, either very young or very old, and living in single-parent households.

his blog


Currently we are hearing a lot in the media and in politics about the “top one percent” of income earners who are supposedly getting an ever-increasing share of the nation’s income. That is absolutely true if you are talking about income brackets. It is totally untrue if you are talking about actual flesh and blood people.

The Internal Revenue Service can follow individual people over the years because they can identify individuals from their Social Security numbers. During recent years, when “the top one percent” as an income category has been getting a growing share of the nation’s income, IRS data show that actual flesh and blood people who were in the top one percent in 1996 had their incomes go down — repeat, DOWN — by a whopping 26 percent by 2005.

How can both sets of statistics be true at the same time? Because most people who are in the top one percent in a given year do not stay in that bracket over the years.

If we are being serious — as distinguished from being political — then our concern should be with what is happening to actual flesh and blood human beings, not what is happening to abstract income brackets.

There is the same statistical problem when talking about “the poor” as there is when talking about “the rich.”

A University of Michigan study showed that most of the working people who were in the bottom 20 percent of income earners in 1975 were also in the top 40 percent at some point by 1991. Only 5 percent of those in the bottom quintile in 1975 were still there in 1991, while 29 percent of them were now in the top quintile.

People in the media and in politics choose statistics that seem to prove what they want to prove. But the rest of us should become aware of what games are being played with numbers.

--Thomas Sowell writing at Crises Magazine



posted on Dec, 16 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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How did I do a double post? Sorry
edit on 16-12-2011 by mother1138 because: (no reason given)



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