Legal Prostitution?

Originally posted by taibunsuu

And I suppose in Amsterdam the legal prostitutes live a glorious, fun-filled, exotic lifestyle where they are paid lots of money to have sex with rich, handsome guys who look like Richard Gere. Uh-huh.

Well probably not, but they definately dont have as many problems as they do in countries where they are illegal. At least in amsterdam they arent afraid to go to the authorities about any of their issues related to their work... also keep in mind richard gere wasnt richard gere in the movie... he was someone else... and i'd bet they do live it up, escort agencies do it, and even though the official line is escorts dont have sex, we all know they really do... hell if you pay someone $5K an hour you'd wanna get some

Originally posted by taibunsuu
prostitution

n : offering sexual intercourse for pay

How do my examples not apply to that definition? Are they sleeping with these guys out of love? Out of lust? No. They are sleeping with them for financial gain, offering sexual intercourse for money, however directly or indirectly.

It's nearly impossible to do anything against porn because of 1st Amendment issues get infringed almost immediately.

So, if a girl has sex with a sleazy dude ON camera for money, it's OK, it's protected by law (probably because the government can easily tax the sales of porn at stores, $$$). But if she has sex with a sleazy dude OFF camera, it's prostitution, and illegal? That makes sense. I guess snuff videos shouldn't be considered murder, because after all, they are done ON camera, and could be sold and taxed, and must be protected by the first amendment somehow, right? (Provided the victim gave consent, perhaps somebody suicidal.)

Prostitution and strip clubs are not like on "Pretty Woman" and "Striptease."

I wouldn't know about prostitution, but I've been to a few strip clubs. I am aware what they are all about, personally, I am not too keen on giving some girl money to pretend she thinks I am way cooler than all the other guys, and then rub her butt on me. But some guys don't mind wasting money, and if some girl needs that money to pay for her kids or college, then more power to all of them. Everybody knows most other entry level jobs don't even come close to paying the cost of living.



[edit on 8-9-2004 by 27jd]

Taibunsuu speaks to the brick wall,

Laws against theft, murder, etc., are really nothing without the culturally-inculcated morals that support those laws and teach people to be courteous, clean, and try to be helpful and kind.

Most of the responces posted on this thread are comming from people who believe that it is NOT ok for a democratic society to set ANY boundaries (cultural values) for what/how that culture is defined...so to talk about ANY issue by using the terms morality and cultural identity will be useless to these all inclusive people...just talk to the wall next to you, you'll get more of a logical responce.

Now before i get crusified here, ill state that im FOR decriminalized prostitution and its regulation. EVEN tho it seems that modern civilized cultures should be able to control their more base instincts in a more educated and respectable manner than giving into vices.

27jd says,

or young women who engage in relations, even marry (call it contract prostitution), old men just because they have lots of money, or secretaries who sleep with their bosses as a way to further their careers, are they not prostitutes?

Huh?!? imagine that....people that engage in relationships for reasons other than love....you dont say....you mean they didnt get married to be equal to some other portion of the culture, but for personal gain?
Is it to be a civil right to whore yourself?

Prostitution is already legal in some parts of Nevada, anyway. The reason it's impossible to restrict porn in this country is because of the unwelcome ambiguity of 'what is porn?' Ashcroft ordered drapes to cover Justice because one of her breasts was exposed. If he's feeling guilty to the point that a beautiful piece of art causes him to cover it up that's his issue, but once you start trying to nitpick over what can be considered art and what incites so-called sinful thoughts, you have a problem.

Snuff flicks, please, you're flying off the handle with that, so I won't even comment.

Like I said, in some parts of Nevada prostitution is legal. Well, you could say the 14th Amendment and the Roe vs. Wade decision grants women control over their bodies, even if they are selling their bodies. Prostitution is often referred to as a victimless crime. Why isn't prostitution the first choice for women to work? Prostitutes are often coerced into the business or supporting drug habits. Without getting too descriptive, it's obvious that it's easier to support a drug habit as a prostitute, whether regulated or unregulated, than any other job.

As for men being in prostitution, also, this only broadens the issue into the subjugation of people, both male and female. The fact is the vast majority of customers of male prostitutes are other males. The vast majority of male prostitutes are transexuals. There is nothing wrong with transexuality, however transexuals live essentially on the fringe of our society due to discrimination, and many times they resort to prostitution because it's their only means of income.

Now, prostitution, world's oldest profession, right? Well for about the past 99,900 years of homo sapiens history women have been little more than chattel. If you cannot own property, and you cannot work, and you cannot read, your employment opportunities are pretty limited.

Only starting around the turn of this century did western society start realizing that men and women are equal. People of the Progressive era did a lot to make life better in this country, make sure we had food and water safety laws and anti-trust and journalistic activity, also increasing emphasis on education. They had idea that with the right attitude society can be made better, and in many ways they were right. Cultural modification can be effected to where men and women are believed to be better than mere objects, and boys aren't always boys and men not always animals.

As far as eradication of prostitution and ways out, it's very difficult to get out. Prostitutes even if legalized use their bodies as commodity, and the body of a prostitute is only a valued commodity until they hit a certain age. What will these men and women do under a legal system when they are no longer attractive enough to work in some fine establishment of prostitution? Well they will either have to learn some job skills or devalue themselves. So, prostitution is not a career opportunity. A 60-year old attorney with 35 years in the business may be invaluable. A 60-year-old prostitute is a laughing stock. The only upward move they can make in the industry career-wise is as a madame or manager.

What about the institute of monogamy? In ancient times prostitutes were actually used to stabilize monogamy, as odd as that may sound. Of course, this was because wives had no rights and were believed to be less human than males. Of course in ancient times wives were often pregnant, short-lived, and during their short, pregnant, painful lives no doubt sex was difficult. So instead of concentrating on helping their wives, who knew not to even ask, the husbands would disregard them for prostitutes. Wow, what a beautiful relationship!

In modern times, we recognize that a monogomous relationship between adults often requires a lot of work to realize benefits. Would the allure of easily-available prostitutes damage family life? The Progressives seemed to think so, and wives sick of their absent husbands at that time picketed brothels. Though in the US there was a dirth of anti-prostitution laws, it was usually allowed, and the graft to the cops from the business didn't hurt, either.

Anyway, it's a divisive issue with a long, long history, and while it's easy to dismiss the accomplishments of the Progressives as being to Puritan and goody-good, they did a lot for this country and for women. While some people view it as personal freedom to sell themselves for money, others view it as a temporary solution at best, and yet other prostitutes such as the famous New Orleans Canal St. Bordello

www.crimelibrary.com...

Or Hollywood Madame, Heidi Fliess, seem to present a very positive aspect to the trade. However, the Canal St. Bordello Madame, Monica Montemayor, also used her daughter in her business at age 16. The concept of a productive society, and productive jobs in the society, can be lost on young girls who see legalized prostitution as an easy way to money, when it's one of the only jobs in the world where your value diminishes the longer you're in the business.

Anyway, it's a very complex question with a long history, and I see the pros and cons, but I believe the cons outweigh the pros. Efforts are made and perhaps should be expanded to provide guilt-free havens for women trying to escape the business, which even if legalized can still hold the dangers it does now, that of white slavery and coercion.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Is it to be a civil right to whore yourself?

Absolutely. So are you saying now we outlaw gold digger marriages as well? It's so pathetic for you to bring your obsession with gay marriage to this thread.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Snuff flicks, please, you're flying off the handle with that, so I won't even comment.

Why not? It was a legitimate metaphor.

Prostitutes even if legalized use their bodies as commodity, and the body of a prostitute is only a valued commodity until they hit a certain age.

How many other professions are the same way? Many. Modeling, acting, pretty much any job where looks count. With prostitution they'll always have fetish customers.

27jd,
I never mentionge the G word, and if anyone in here read my statement and had not participated in the other thread, they would have no clue as to my observations of your post.

I was mearly amused that you do seem to understand that marriage/relationships occur for reasons other that the altruistic and unprovable ideal of love. I.E. marriage is already open to abuse. Is it wise to further open this up to more potentials for abuse by any means? (in this case prostitution)

From a sociological standpoint, this marriage/legal whoring issue is important and has probably been so for a long time. But as I know you already give marriage little respect as its defined now, why wouldnt you see potential problems that relate it to prostitution?
Once again it conflicts directly with the traditional definition of marriage.
While prostitution may be legal, my wife would cut off my apendage, throw it out, and file for divorce if i used my legal right as an adult to visit a legal brothel.

Doing so would demean my contract/promise to her, possibly causing her feelings of jealousy, and low self worth....the whore may also experiance these feelings....I (the john) could also have emotional problems as a result, say feelings that i could belittle a woman or "use" her for my ends mearly by throwing $$$ at her. There are other social/psychological situations that could occur as a result of allowing this activity.
Heck why marry at all if i could just pay to milk the cow so to speak.

While it seems so easy to just say, a person can do what they want with their body, it can/does have effects on others, even if they dont think they feel it.
I think this is why prostitution has been wrestled with for a long time.

Eons ago, men figured out that sex with a willing partner was far better than forcing it....(a basic reason why cultures might have felt rape was wrong even IF women were "property")
Once women knew they held the keys to the box so to speak. (LMAO) this empowered them....there are many historical examples of "courtizans" where they capitalized on this activity. There are many more where they became essentially used up and discarded. So far not a good track record for a society to try adopting thisinstitutionally into the culture.

Again, i'd vote to decriminalize this, but KNOW that there are serious ramifications that 2 thousand years of mankind is still ill equiped to define, understand and most importantly DEAL with.
But hey, it sounds like fun, so who cares who this screws eh? lets just make it happen. We dont have to learn anything from history about why this idea hasnt become too mainstream thru history.


[edit on 8-9-2004 by CazMedia]

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Snuff flicks, please, you're flying off the handle with that, so I won't even comment.

Why not? It was a legitimate metaphor.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

Prostitutes even if legalized use their bodies as commodity, and the body of a prostitute is only a valued commodity until they hit a certain age.

How many other professions are the same way? Many. Modeling, acting, pretty much any job where looks count. With prostitution they'll always have fetish customers.

This may be true. I'm not exactly sure of the viability of a great-grandmother aged prostitute, but I'll defer to your opinion.

There's a huge and well-documented history about the subject from which anyone can inform themselves. But in the end it will come down to a matter of personal ethics and what people believe benefits the common good. I feel that we should work toward a world where the role of prostitute is eliminated.

Fortunately we live in a country where the local demands can accomodate (mostly) local beliefs and ethics, and I can choose to live in a part of the country where there is no prostitution, and you can live in a part of the country where it's allowed.

Selling sex is illegal 'coz the powers that be can't monopolize it. You can't invade a countery and take ove its sex wells (or mines) like oil or something.

No this is different: Its a undepleteable resource (well untill you run out of steam) and essentially priceless (as men, at least, will do ANYTHING for it).

That really gets to the little fat controllers, so its illegal under the pretext that its immoral or something.

"Easy" money and thats not fair coz the fat controllers want all of it.

Edit: Spelling as usual

[edit on 8/9/2004 by Corinthas]

Originally posted by CazMedia
I was mearly amused that you do seem to understand that marriage/relationships occur for reasons other that the altruistic and unprovable ideal of love. I.E. marriage is already open to abuse. Is it wise to further open this up to more potentials for abuse by any means? (in this case prostitution)

I never said all marriages were based on love, or that it could not be abused, but to deny any segment of our population the priviledge to marry based solely off their sexual preference, would not be the act of a free country, but we'll keep this discussion on thread.

While prostitution may be legal, my wife would cut off my apendage, throw it out, and file for divorce if i used my legal right as an adult to visit a legal brothel.

And rightfully so, I never advocated infidelity, however if a man is going to cheat, he will, and sure you'll say this will make it easier, but how stable is the marriage if either party is willing, let alone seeking to cheat? Not to mention, if it were legal, and they were medically screened, at least there be a far less chance of him bringing an STD home to his wife. But prostitution would be most beneficial to those men who do not do well with women (we all know one ), I have a friend who's 26 and cannot get a woman to save his life, and each day he spirals further down into self-loathing and depression, a prostitute would be providing a valuable service for men like that.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

I was not advocating snuff films, just drawing the similarity and asking if an illegal act is filmed, how is it then protected by the first amendment? And some 18 yr old girl getting paid to have sex with Ron Jeremy or some other nasty man on film, to me is far more disgusting and degrading to society than an older woman (I think prostitutes, if legalized, should have to be at least 21, so they have time to make a somewhat rational decision that's what they want to do) who may decide to go this route.

I'm not exactly sure of the viability of a great-grandmother aged prostitute, but I'll defer to your opinion.

There's some pretty sick people out there, with many bizarre fetishes, would you disagree?

Fortunately we live in a country where the local demands can accomodate (mostly) local beliefs and ethics, and I can choose to live in a part of the country where there is no prostitution, and you can live in a part of the country where it's allowed.

As I've stated before, I would never pay for sex, I have a girlfriend, and if I didn't, I've had no problems with the ladies. I'm just making the point that it is there, will always be there, and should be regulated instead of criminalized, but that's just my opinion.

I think streetwalkers should be legalized...If they want to take the easy way out let em. As long as they aren't being a nuisance to anybody else, they should be left alone.

Call Girls/Escorts: Same thing, this is a more privatized institution based off internet advertising and phone book ads, that is, if your area doesn't have a problem with escorts.

There are so many lonely men out there who need companionship, there are many people out there who desire a three way with another woman or man. It doesn't matter if this is made illegal or not, it will still be around for thousands of years like it has been.

Prostitution is a form of work to some, some people don't mind selling their body or their companionship for monetary gain.

People give of themselves in many different ways...

Somewhere along the line they made politicians intellectual prostitutes.

Prostitution is a service, just like anything else.

You have your financial planner who charges you fees for his service
You have your doctor who charges you for his service
Then you have your call girl who charges you for his service

All these examples are of people "helping" other people, just in different ways.

Sometimes guys grow hair on their hands from touching themselves too much down there, and need the help of a formal stranger... And thus,
Like John Kerry says "help is on the way"

"Sharing Hair" should be legal. I think it should be institutionalized. Street walkers, however, should be outlawed in that legal state. Simply put, you can't regulate that or ensure the hookers saftey.

What I never understood? It is so damn easy to get laid; any adult can find someone just as horny, with just as much pent up libido.
Go to some business district in the hotel area of any US city. Someone is on a business trip & looking for nookie. I've had women practically unscrew the kitten & fling it at me!
It's hard to find love, but sex is like McDonald's.....except it's free!!

Originally posted by Bout Time
It's hard to find love, but sex is like McDonald's.....except it's free!!

Where do you live and how can I get there? It seems like any girl I'm ever interested in is either with someone already or they involve the need for incredible finesse and gobs of money...

Here in the bible belt, you won't find many strip clubs - you've got to drive to Atlanta, New Orleans, Tampa, Miami, Orlando etc...But you can be offered sex under the counter at even some of the most reputable places...without naming names, I went to a very well respected strip club in Tampa and was offered sex - but I wasn't an idiot...annnnd I didn't have the money...lol...so I didn't take....but when I refused she more than made up for it with a slighlty cheaper lap dance that I can guarantee passed beyond what they are allowed to do...

What goes on behind closed doors in private businesses can often be just as legal as you can make it seem like in your head at the time you're doing it....freedom vs. reasoning....taxed vx. untaxed....liberty vs. prison....they're all the same thing and they all lead to the same answer of why prositution isn't currently legal - and that's b/c it doesn't stand for politicians to gain anything from it at the moment...they'd rather prode poke and tease you with almost getting laid rather than allow complete sexual freedom on an already over-populated and diseased society...

BT, could you give me more tips U2U? Seriously, you make it sound so easy.

Anyways, women using their bodies as a commodity. Damn it, there are male prostitutes to.

Anyways, isn't this what Britany Spears does? She can't sing, write music, anything like that. She just wears see-through clothes and dances around. She is using her body as a commodity.

And Caz, leave the gay bashing in your McGreevey is a gay mole/hamster/other form of rodent post please, no need for this discussion to turn into what it has in yours.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, don't drugs actually cause harm to the body?

So does alcohol and cigarettes!

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, don't drugs actually cause harm to the body?

So does alcohol and cigarettes!

I guess "broken records" are free today?

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Shouldn't we aspire as humans to something more than sex trade?

Why? What about being human puts us above mother nature and our planet earth, sex is natural, we make a trade of everything else, why not sex?

How many men do you know, even if it were legal...would be proud to say, "Oh yeah, my daughter makes good money...she's in the prostitution profession"? Or how how many would not care if their wife came home from a hard nights work, tired from having sex with other men all night.....it will always be a moral issue.

Hmmm, daughter became a prostitute, would she have a lot of young prostitute friends? Or wife, well, that would be weird, but hell, if you agreed to let her be one no use complaining.

And yes, cigs and alchohol hurt you to, which is why I don't smoke or drink.

prostitution is legal in every state. they call it marriage.