Originally posted by dsclev
Are you serious?. Have you read it? America was
founded as a freedom based nation and the constitution in it's proper interpretation outlines those freedoms and was supposed to protect those
freedoms of the individuals living under it. Mind you we have misinterpreted it badly and strayed totally from the original intent, but the communist
manifesto starts with enslavement of the people for the benefit of the government and winds up crushing all freedoms and individuality. Even a badly
interpreted American constitution is better than that evil document.
Originally posted by Atzil321
Whats wrong with communism exactly? I can never understand why americans hate marxism so much. Why not take the time to read The Communist Manifesto
and try to understand it? Rather than just hate on it because that's the american way......
This guy has never even read the book. It was Lenin who advocated the building of a state and the usage of existing apparatus, not Marx. Marx was very
critical of reformists and authoritarians. To say the communist manifesto advocates "enslavement of the people for the benefit of the government" is
ignorant in the extreme (at best), particularly when it's a document that advocates direct democracy. The Communist Manifesto talks of
the apparatus that the ruling class uses to maintain its power, NOT maintaining and exploiting it. That was Lenin's goal, not
You need to get past the idea that all marxists advocate the same system - in fact, they do not agree on even the basics. Especially considering there
is an old tradition, that goes back to the days of Marx himself, that advocated complete removal and abolition of the state in favour of direct
Some of y'all haven't studied political theory for a second in your life, and it shows - the views you seem to hold regarding marxism are warped and
distorted in the extreme. This is what you get when people do not deny ignorance and just buy into whatever propaganda bull# they hear on the radio.
That y'all just refer to "communists" as some giant monolithic group shows an extreme level of ignorance in a few ways:
a) You do not have even a basic understanding of the structure and status quo in the revolutionary left (Marxists, communists, socialists, and
anarchists). They are NOT a unified group by any means, are extremely divided, and are often so sectarian that in some cases they will side with
right-wing groups or police rather than other revolutionary leftists, simply due to ideological disputes.
b) There is no monolithic ideology in the revolutionary left. Again, they are extremely fragmented. You will be hard pressed to find two groups that
advocate the same system. When most of the 'Cold Warriors' refer to 'communists', 'socialists', or 'marxists' they are all referring to what, in
political science terms, is called Marxism-Leninism. Stalinism, Maoism, et al are derivatives of Marxism-Leninism. It is more correct to refer to
advocates of a large, authoritarian, bureaucratic state as Marxist-Leninists, or simply Leninists. To lump them all in together is fundamentally
ignorant, particularly with the range that do not advocate the building of the state at all but the complete abolition thereof: anarcho-communists,
left communists, council communists, etc. This is not even to mention that even Marxist-Leninists do not agree with each other on what the system
should look like. There are major ideological disputes between them.
c) Not all communists or marxists are socialists. 'Socialism' means a nation-state that attempts to reconcile marxist theory with the usage of a state
apparatus - something that, as many marxists or communists will tell you, it is inherently incompatible with. Leninists (and derivatives thereof -
stalinism, maoism, et al) tend to be socialists, whereas others tend not to be - mutualists, anarcho-communists, left communists, etc are all very
large tendencies within Marxism and are strictly anti-state and thus not socialists.
d) Furthermore, not all communists are Marxists. These types are less common, since Marx was so influential on just about everybody - particularly as
Marx did not
advocate any particular structure for society or path of development. What Marx wrote was a critique, not a plan, and it was a
critique of the state, so-called "representative" systems as well as market economics from the era. Because it was just a critique, a huge range of
movements have it as the basis of their ideology, but by no means is Marx's work supported by all communists.
The idea that there is a large conspiracy of "communists" trying to infiltrate the US government and turn it into some sort of fascist state,
protective of corporations and protective of the business elite reflects a fundamental ignorance of the facts.
edit on 13/12/11 by Yazman
because: fixing typos