People are here to reinforce their own preconceptions and cognitive dissonance.

Without even knowing who or what I'm talking about, you may find yourself feeling defensive. Wondering whether I'm talking about you or someone like you; someone who shares your opinions. Regardless of the fact that I haven't even started my post in earnest yet, you may already be ready for an argument. And that, fellow ATSers, is why I have now essentially concluded that we have a big obstruction in our path toward "the truth:" ourselves.

People have preconceived notions about how things are. I won’t specify a given subject, because really, this is a general phenomenon, not a specific one. People feel that things are a certain way. It feels good to believe that this is so. (I’m still not stating what people I’m talking about. Skeptics? Believers? Everyone? I haven’t said, but I can virtually guarantee you that someone reading this somewhere is feeling defensive at the mere suggestion. Are you that person? Think about it.)

When those preconceived notions are challenged, be it by contradictory evidence, or simply by alternative explanations or even mere possibilities, people balk. Especially when those possibilities, however valid, threaten their world view or reality paradigm. Preserving that world view, that preconceived notion that feels good, in lieu of an alternative that is chaotic, unfamiliar, and unpleasant, matters more than our vaunted “truth.” It matters more than “denying ignorance.” It matters more than rational thought, rigor, or even faith. It is paramount to many here, as borne out in countless topics.

And that is why I no longer feel capable of contributing to this website. Don’t mistake my meaning. I don’t mean I’m incapable of contributing because I’m loathe to do so or hate the site or something. To the contrary, I love and value this site... and its membership, for that matter. I mean I feel incapable - as in, I can’t even if I want to - of contributing to it. Because when anyone does, all they’re doing is providing one of innumerable vantage points. And those vantage points conflict with the reality that others require in order to function, to feel safe, to feel as though they’re in control, and to feel some semblance of peace and order in their reality. So in turn, nothing is being contributed... because it is simply rejected out of hand. Not considered as a possibility mind you, or considered, disproved, and discarded. Just rejected, period.

Don’t mistake my meaning: I’m not saying I somehow have an answer that anyone else doesn’t. But that’s just it: I don’t know. I don't know the "truth." All I’m doing is asking. And what I’m asking is:

What good is a search for “truth” or the claimed “denial of ignorance,” if we reject possible truths because they don’t feel good or force us to unravel our lengthy emotional investments in ideas? Because that’s what I see here now, day in and day out. “I believe this, so this is the way it is.” "But what if it's not?" "It has to be!" SO sure, we are.

I still haven’t singled anyone or even any side out. But I still know there are people feeling threatened and defensive by this suggestion. And that is, sadly, evidence of my entire point.

Ignorance. We keep using that word. I do not think it means what we think it means.

reply to post by AceWombat04


You forgot the attention seekers too

I hear you, thats why when someone starts a thread or posts about something i dont know i`ll go look it up on my own. ATS is great for being introduced to ideas but not so much as factual information. Beats the mainstream news by far, if it only predicted the weather

Let those who you speak of stool in their own distorted self worth, makes life interesting for the rest of us.

reply to post by AceWombat04


This is a generalization and an over simplification which in large part may even be true but it grossly overlooks the sincere people with eager and open minds who are here because they want to learn something new. This is a mistake and prejudgement similar to racism - lumping all people together based on your own biased perhaps even limited and skewed perceptions. Is this what you meant by ready to disagree? If so you were right on that count.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with following your gut. I think that is what led me to this site. When everything I read gives me a waft of bullsht, I think that this is a great place to sort through the different takes of it all. I believe that your view as described is a bit narrow. To tell you the truth, I wish it were that simple. I see what you mean and you have a great point. How many truths are needed for any subject? Why would there be a need to reinforce discomfort from conflicting ideas? Sounds to me like governments are pretty damn good at that. Yet I see individuals who claim to be against such practices by governing forces unwittingly do the same thing. I am probably even guilty of it. Its an eye opener thats for sure.

reply to post by newcovenant


Allow me to quote myself:

...people...

...you may ...

... I’m still not stating what people I’m talking about ...

... many here...

... there are people ...

Notice that none of that generalizes about the whole of ATS. If you somehow inferred that intention, I apologize, though it was (in my opinion obviously) not my intention.

Is this what you meant by ready to disagree? If so you were right on that count.

Evidently so. But it is not my wish to argue. So I'll just stop posting now.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Allow me to quote myself:

...people...

...you may ...

... I’m still not stating what people I’m talking about ...

... many here...

... there are people ...

Notice that none of that generalizes about the whole of ATS. If you somehow inferred that intention, I apologize, though it was (in my opinion obviously) not my intention.

Is this what you meant by ready to disagree? If so you were right on that count.

Evidently so. But it is not my wish to argue. So I'll just stop posting now.

edit on 12/13/2011 by AceWombat04 because: (no reason given)

If you cannot run a commentary and hold a discussion and vent differing points of view without resorting to "argument" this is a problem in itself. I know you said "people" "many here" and you are not stating WHAT people but none the less I take exception to the TITLE of your thread. I am sure you expected that. Now to get to a point where others are allowed their opinions and you are ok with that. That will be progress.

reply to post by newcovenant


I'm not suggesting that I can't discuss this without arguing. *Sigh* No offense, but you have grossly misconstrued the intent of my topic. We are "getting off on the wrong foot" as one might say.

If you read my posts anywhere on this site, you will find that I wholeheartedly respect everyone's opinions and their right to them. You need only read the topic in my signature to see that (I hope.) Read that and then re-read this topic with that context in mind.

This topic is not about opinions, however. It is about assertions of factual knowledge. People claiming to "know" a thing that they cannot prove, because the lack of proof disrupts their preconceived notions. People rejecting possibilities outright because the mere suggestion is threatening to their worldview. Do you deny that this happens?

As to the topic title, if it offends you, then I apologize. However, the use of the word "people" was intended to not point a finger at any specific individuals (because honestly, there are too many to do so anyway,) while also not generalizing. "People" is about as neutral a term as I can use, frankly. ("Some people" would potentially imply that only certain groups of people do this.) If you will not take into consideration my clearly stated and in my opinion demonstrated intentions, then I don't know what else to say.

reply to post by AceWombat04

Bravo!
I feel the same, and won't be far behind you.
I doubt there would be many people who have actually changed their idea of 'truth' from reading the alternatives presented in threads here. Most just want their truth re-inforced.

Good luck, and happy trails.

reply to post by AceWombat04


I may have to modify my opinion of people who live in California. Very, very good. If I have one suggestion, it would be to go ahead and give up on ATS, but don't give up on some of the individuals who come here to contribute and learn.

I know it sound confusing. I don't care much for ATS as a whole, but there are gems which make it worthwhile. My own solution is to run away from some threads, and pour my heart into a select few.

Oops, forgot. I have one other option. Walk into a thread, make a comment, and walk out, leaving it all behind.

reply to post by AceWombat04



You cannot seem to "get" I am not fighting with you, so I am at a loss for what to do as well. * sigh * I am trying to get you to see the sense in staying and posting and continuing to read, participate and enjoy the site for what it is worth and for the sake of all the "better" more open minded and reasonable people on here with something worthwhile to offer...the ones you claim you are NOT talking about.

BUT you are ready and looking for a fight an argument or to be right. There is no right. There's only you and me and we just disagree. It is OK. If I bother you I can see how you might be thin skinned about the rest. They can be brutal, merciless and stone headed - I know. Proof and evidence are two different things. If half of the topics discussed were already "proved" they would not also be secrets and you probably wouldn't have any need to discuss them or take an opposing view. It is the nature of the "conspiracy" beast. I do think the site has gotten horribly dumbed down as if all the interesting people and topics took a trip elsewhere. Now there is way too much political commentary (try and prove anything there) and that is not what I came here for. I am not threatening to leave though. That is just silly and makes me sound immature and a little like a "sour grapes" spoiled child, regardless of how many people may agree.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by AceWombat04

 

You cannot seem to see I am not fighting with you so I am at a loss for what to do as well.

Nor am I trying to fight with you, or with anyone else. I'm just clarifying myself and pointing out that you have said several things about my words and their intent or implications which are not consistent with what I was attempting to express. That isn't fighting.

I am trying to get you to see the sense in staying and posting and continuing to read, participate and enjoy the site for what it is worth and for the sake of all the "better" more open minded and reasonable people on here with something worthwhile to offer...the ones you claim you are NOT talking about.

I never said anything about leaving ATS. I said I feel incapable of contributing when these scenarios arise, which is true. That's how it feels.

BUT you are ready and looking for a fight an argument or to be right.

I'm not looking for a fight with anyone. I'm lamenting the aforementioned scenarios.

There is no right.

This is essentially the entire point of this topic. We don't yet know "the truth," thus there is no "right." But many are convinced that there is, and for those individuals, nothing beyond what they hold to be iron clad truth will penetrate. I see it daily, time and time again. Again, the point of this topic is not to attack those people, or anyone else. It is to lament this state of affairs, which in more topics than not, makes me feel as though my posts are largely futile. As others have said, I'm not the only one who feels this way either.

There's only you and me and we just disagree.

I think we disagree less than you think, but I could be wrong of course.

As I've now clarified myself as much as possible, I'm going to conclude by saying I do not now nor did I ever bear you any enmity or hostility, and that I stand by everything I said.

I don't think anything else needs to be said (at least by me, in this topic.) Peace.

reply to post by AceWombat04

And that is why I no longer feel capable of contributing to this website.

edit: I was just going by this and responding to it. I think it is a little rash. I am entitled to my thoughts and they needn't fall in line with anyone else's. As are you. When they do is when I begin to re-examine and worry about myself. Unique is good.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by AceWombat04

 

This has become as circular and tiresome as the rest. Fare well.

Well, I apologize if I have caused you to feel that way, offended you, or if I have been less than clear or precise in my language.

I wish you well in your own journey. Peace.

And that is why I no longer feel capable of contributing to this website.

I was just going by this and responding to it. I think it is a little rash. I am entitled to my thoughts and they needn't fall in line with anyone else's. As are you. When they do is when I begin to re-examine and worry about myself. Unique is good.

edit on 13-12-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

You (and I) certainly are. It was not my intent to imply otherwise. And I agree. Our diversity is a positive thing, not a negative one.

Ace--

You seem to discount the capability for anyone one of us to learn from our false assumptions, beliefs and even data. EVERYONE has a positioin on EVERYTHING even if it is the ofts-pouted "wait and see..on the fence." position.

Of course, you set us up early on to be argumentative with what you suggest. That is your game. The kicker is that you blame us and not yourself whom evidently maintains an over-arching superiority. You whine that you have nothing you can teach us because we are set in our respective ways. That view amounts to a crackpot position from a supposed intelligencia side. ATS is a place where probably more pure learning and self-reasoning is done on than about anyother wide-open forum on the internet. Don't attempt to hold up Wikipedia standards to us. (They are not all that high and mighty themselves).

I will not check on what you post and not having yet seen your words in the signature line, I have assumed that your core views reside in the debunker side of the UFO enigma and a perhaps yet unrealized sinking feeling that the debunker side is constantly losing ground, undercut by scientific investigations of matters that all relate and support the eventual recognition that we are not alone. And in effect, this is being exhibited in a perverse, superior way.

Sorry, but if you can make rash assumptions about our mental processes, so can we about yours.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Ace--

You seem to discount the capability for anyone one of us to learn from our false assumptions, beliefs and even data. EVERYONE has a positioin on EVERYTHING even if it is the ofts-pouted "wait and see..on the fence." position.

I'm sorry if I gave you or anyone else that impression. I don't discount that possibility, and in fact, I have learned a lot from my preconceptions that turned out to be wrong over the course of my life. However, this being the rant section of the website, I have chosen to express my frustration and lamentations regarding some instances of what I consider to be closed-mindedness consequent to cognitive dissonance on ATS.

Of course, you set us up early on to be argumentative with what you suggest. That is your game.

I assure you, I am not playing "a game." This topic is a genuine expression of my thoughts and feelings. If yout take exception to them, then I apologize.

The kicker is that you blame us and not yourself whom evidently maintains an over-arching superiority. You whine that you have nothing you can teach us because we are set in our respective ways. That view amounts to a crackpot position from a supposed intelligencia side.

I feel no sense of superiority of any sort toward anyone, on this site or elsewhere. As I stated in my initial post, I don't have any special insight, truth, or knowledge that anyone else lacks. I don't know what the truth is.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

ATS is a place where probably more pure learning and self-reasoning is done on than about anyother wide-open forum on the internet. Don't attempt to hold up Wikipedia standards to us. (They are not all that high and mighty themselves).

I completely agree with this. As stated earlier in my exchanges with newcovenant, it was not my intent to generalize about the membership of ATS as a whole.

I will not check on what you post and not having yet seen your words in the signature line, I have assumed that your core views reside in the debunker side of the UFO enigma and a perhaps yet unrealized sinking feeling that the debunker side is constantly losing ground, undercut by scientific investigations of matters that all relate and support the eventual recognition that we are not alone. And in effect, this is being exhibited in a perverse, superior way.

That statement in no way reflects my personal beliefs or philosophy. To the contrary, I often post about the difference between debunkers (or what I would term pseudo-skeptics) and true skepticism, which strives to remain open-minded to possibilities unless there is proof that they are untrue (and it's very, very hard to prove a negative, which means the vast, vast majority of the subject matter on ATS is something I am completely open to the possibility of. I just also maintain alternative possibilities alongside those hypotheses.)

Sorry, but if you can make rash assumptions about our mental processes, so can we about yours.

I'm sorry you feel my posts were rash. That is certainly your prerogative.

I'm going to bed now, all. Again, I bear no enmity, sense of superiority, or hostility toward anyone who has posted in this topic. I will however say that it has been interesting, and for that I thank you.

Peace and goodnight (good day, technically in my time zone.)

reply to post by AceWombat04


ATS is like a marriage/relationship.

You have been a member for a long time. Kudos to you. Most people file for divorce within the first year.

Your a stayer, I reckon after some time out, you will be back with a different attitude. You will be back tougher and buffer than ever before!!

What about all the friends you have made? Are you just going to forget about them?

Originally posted by newcovenant
This is a generalization and an over simplification which in large part may even be true but it grossly overlooks the sincere people with eager and open minds who are here because they want to learn something new.

I have enjoyed reading Wombat's posts for many years as he usually furnishes a penetrating truth, even if it is apologetic to a fault. He is not wrong here either. I would say that you fit neatly in the aforementioned group of people. Just your custom title is enough to get a sense of your ignorance and divisiveness.

The GOP game plan is for the affluent and the corporations to control the government essentially an American fascist state. - newcovenant

ATS has suffered a talent drain since the early years and the current demographic represents an influx of self-reinforcing ignorance. There are still things to be appreciated and shared here but the effort/benefit ratio is low; the main obstacle to free and open discussion being that the membership is comprised of large preconceptive blocs, who indulge in almost religious pat-on-the-back behaviour.

Simply put, it is not an ideal venue for the open-minded amongst us. Btw, I have to laugh at how that term is abused here, subscribing to an alternative topic or indeed any other topic does not make one open-minded by nature. The ostentatious use of the word "sheeple" to label people who hold an opposite view has become a ubiquitous marker of this delusional behaviour.

reply to post by AceWombat04


Well done for having the kahunas to express this...I often feel the same way...and when I do I bow out of debates/arguments with individual 'preachers'...

Some on this site ask for genuine guidance/signposts/direction...I honestly wish that the net had existed when I was at the age where 'important' questions had to be asked, but It actually took much longer to get pointed in any direction...c'est la vie...

Of course the big one here (I find) is religion (Fundy christians in particular) where reams of text and thier acquired interpretation can be reeled of, dripping off the fingers onto sparkly keyboards...not so much a dialogue, but a monologue, which is not what I most enjoy about ATS. Nobody (as far as I can see) minds the polite debate, but all too often, derogation slips in, and you can forget the dialogue at that point.

Several times I've considered resorting to ATS rules on posting, but just thought...'what's the use?'...there's gonna be some other nutjob doing the same thing tomorrow...it's like swatting flies away from s**t...

Again, I second your sentiments, no need to go, just modify your posting rules (in line with ATS's of course) and stay...

Akushla

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by newcovenant
This is a generalization and an over simplification which in large part may even be true but it grossly overlooks the sincere people with eager and open minds who are here because they want to learn something new.

I have enjoyed reading Wombat's posts for many years as he usually furnishes a penetrating truth, even if it is apologetic to a fault. He is not wrong here either. I would say that you fit neatly in the aforementioned group of people. Just your custom title is enough to get a sense of your ignorance and divisiveness.

The GOP game plan is for the affluent and the corporations to control the government essentially an American fascist state. - newcovenant

ATS has suffered a talent drain since the early years and the current demographic represents an influx of self-reinforcing ignorance. There are still things to be appreciated and shared here but the effort/benefit ratio is low; the main obstacle to free and open discussion being that the membership is comprised of large preconceptive blocs, who indulge in almost religious pat-on-the-back behaviour.

Simply put, it is not an ideal venue for the open-minded amongst us. Btw, I have to laugh at how that term is abused here, subscribing to an alternative topic or indeed any other topic does not make one open-minded by nature. The ostentatious use of the word "sheeple" to label people who hold an opposite view has become a ubiquitous marker of this delusional behaviour.

edit on 2012/3/3 by SteveR because: (no reason given)

People build affinities for each other and they stick up for their friends. The site has an influx of youngsters and an outflow of mature posters. That's why it's dumbed down. Stop trying to make rocket science out of basic human relationships, thoughts and disagreements. If we were mechanical robots I might be impressed but we are human and understanding can and does come naturally. We are in a web forum but in the real world I am understood and appreciated just like you are partial to Wombat. Most people are just trying to sound smarter than they are, expand their vocabulary and build up their fan club. Your letter is a great example of taking 3 paragraphs to hold approximately 2 thoughts. Simply put? What a laugh. I am too old for that BS. I say what I think and get out of here. I don't know you or Wombat but I can tell you the sign of good writing is say what you want to say in as few words as possible. The rest are just weeds you are putting for people to wade through to get to your point. You don't like me or my opinions. I'll live.

Originally posted by newcovenant
I say what I think and get out of here.

And yet, all you do is buzz around telling people how you feel about their posts. You take one of the most gentlemanly posters in ATS history and call him racist. He backs down and you provoke him further. You are a compulsive, easily offended, vacuous individual. But what can I expect from an "old" openly partisan Liberal.