Is Anyone Still Taking OWS Seriously?

Many years ago I took part in some demonstrations in Victoria, BC, Canada that were shockingly similar to the Occupy protests. We occupied Centennial Square (City Hall) for 3 weeks or so, and we later camped on the lawn of the provincial legislature for quite some time as well (originally started as a university-student protest against tuition fees, and got "subverted" into a much broader movement). In this case, we were organizing around homelessness issues, specifically the shutdown of a community-based grassroots shelter that had arisen, and the persecution of anyone who chose to sleep ANYWHERE outside, openly or not. We encountered many of the same issues as Occupy, particularly people joining us who wanted a place to sleep or do drugs and didn't have any real interest in the movement itself. (We referred to it as a demonstration rather than protest, as we mainly wanted the right to look after ourselves and each other without City Hall trying to stop us.) In our case, homeless people joining our camp was fine, as these were the people we wanted to help...in fact, the police were recommending to people that they join our camp as a safe place to sleep.

Getting thrown out of the parks isn't a loss for the Occupy movement. It's a good way for them to get out of the occupying business without being seen as having surrendered. The whole camping thing wasn't going anywhere and I imagine they had already realized it. The main thing they needed from the campout was to build a network of interested people, and the park occupation had become a squat, consisting more and more of people who just wanted a rent-free place to live (and why shouldn't they? Why have we accepted this idea that for society to function, we all have to pay to sleep?) The police did them a favor by giving them a way to end the park occupation phase of the movement without appearing to have given up. Trust me, the whole thing was doomed to lose momentum, credibility, and cohesion at a rapidly accelerating pace.

So now, we have a lot of people who are ready to work together, who have one anothers' contact info, and are no longer linked to a specific location. I really hope they try flash occupations next. Occupy government offices, corporate headquarters, and specific symbolic sites just long enough for the legal system to start moving against them, then disperse and regroup somewhere else. After all, we still have that right to assembly, don't we?

Protesting legally is useless. The reason certain methods are legal is that they are ineffective. Period.

Someone has already done a great job illustrating the movement to build alternative systems in order to be ready for the next economic or political meltdown. Thank you.

I have some more stuff to add, but I'm getting into the post length where I expect a TL;DR response, so I'll save it for later in the thread. Thanks for reading.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


To correct this ship and we are demanding change that benefits all instead of a select few.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by Domo1

 

Here is an interesting opinion in today's (Seattle Times) editorial section:

seattletimes.nwsource.com...

That is a great article. And this is the criticism I have had for OWS all along...I said at the very beginning...become political, or die.

It appears they choose to die. They want "change"...but are against working within the political system...they still don't have any logical reasoning how exactly that is going to work. I guess they think that they stand in the street, hold a sign, say they aren't going to become political, a lot say they aren't going to even vote...and then the expect politicians to listen to them and do exactly what they are demandng

These are the most important lines in the article IMO.

The original message was lost. The subject at hand, evidently, was proper policing techniques.
...
Briefly, it looked like the left had created its very own version of a tea party, a force that would seize control of the national attention and force intransigent Republican legislators to explain themselves and force real banking reform into existence. But that result appears increasingly unlikely. By the time Republican members of the federal deficit-reduction supercommittee killed any hope of a grand deal because they were unwilling to seriously consider a minor increase on the tax-rate for millionaires, the protesters didn't even appear to notice. The day after that deal died, the Occupy movement should have physically blocked all congressmen from entering the Capitol, but they were busy fighting with the police.

OWS's refusal to become political or pick a side is what has killed them and made them irrelevant to everyone except themselves.

edit on 12-12-2011 by OutKast Searcher because: (no reason given)

I disagree with you. It is that very refusal to work within a broken, rigged paradigm that lends them relevancy. They are taking a unified stand outside of the established right-left paradigm. That is what makes them so damn dangerous and a major concern to TPTB. Any group working within the paradigm is manageable and co-optable. Any group with established leadership is co-optable. Any group with a unified agenda is co-optable. Occupy is not. I’ve seen the attempts with my own eyes. I’ve seen them fail miserably. One sure way to spot an undercover agent is when they ask “who’s in charge” or “what are we fighting for”. Another way is to see their complete confusion with the consensus process or their absolute look of dissociation with the work group process. It is so far outside of their paradigm as to be absolutely incomprehensible to them. They stick out like a sore thumb.

I think this is a paradigm shared by most people in the world, I believe they cannot even conceive of a society operating outside of the central control model. We, most of us at Occupy, are over trying to convince everyone of something that has to be experienced in order to be understood. It would pay to go for yourself and see what is happening locally. You might not get it, but at least you would KNOW that you are operating on a completely different paradigm. That, too, is essential knowledge, that a different, effective paradigm exists and is beginning to flourish…

Originally posted by jude11
reply to post by Domo1

 

illegally protest in public parks.

Protests are illegal in public parks?

So they would be legal in designated areas that are not seen by the public?

Exactly what TPTB want...people agreeing with this statement.

The revolutionary war was technically illegal in the eyes of king George.
The Boston Tea-party would've had less impact had they requested permission
to board and inspect the cargo..

An" illegal" protest may not last very long and particpants will probably be arrested; but That in itself makes a Major impact. (requires news coverage)
.:unlike wishy washy "EverybodyListen -up: "we got all our permits from the courthouse we will be assembling at 0900 to chant "we are the ninety nine percent"!

"wow""big whooop"...I mean That's effective.especially when you're in no way the 99%

reply to post by Domo1


i never too it seriously at any stage

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by PapaKrok

 

The East Coast actions support fully the action being undertaken by shutting down shipping ports as we are starving the beast.

We support that, for sure!!!

I'm getting notifications that this site is unsafe from my antivirus software.
ATS should be on top of that.

You people are so naive. You really think shutting down a port is going to make a difference? The only way to starve the beast is to quit giving it your money. How many of you bought are are buying Christmas presents without checking where it was made? I'll bet 90%. That new smart phone? Most likely China. Same with your sports team apparel. That new Xbox or Playstation? Same thing. New laptop? Bingo. Unless you are buying something that states it was made in the USA (not assembled) then you are feeding the beast. You are encouraging outsourcing to countries that not only violate human rights, but that were most likely at one point located here on American soil!

You want to starve the beast? Then do it the right way and stop buying cheap Chinese products! Quit buying products from companies that have shipped our jobs to other countries!

Originally posted by haarvik
You people are so naive. You really think shutting down a port is going to make a difference? The only way to starve the beast is to quit giving it your money. How many of you bought are are buying Christmas presents without checking where it was made? I'll bet 90%. That new smart phone? Most likely China. Same with your sports team apparel. That new Xbox or Playstation? Same thing. New laptop? Bingo. Unless you are buying something that states it was made in the USA (not assembled) then you are feeding the beast. You are encouraging outsourcing to countries that not only violate human rights, but that were most likely at one point located here on American soil!

You want to starve the beast? Then do it the right way and stop buying cheap Chinese products! Quit buying products from companies that have shipped our jobs to other countries!

Uh, that leaves me with no products at all.

This mentality that all of the people in OWS are bad is childish. When I was a child I thought all Germans were bad from watching war movies that villanized them. I grew up.

reply to post by earthdude


Then make your own! I do. There are products for sale out there that are actually made in the USA. Here is a website to help you know what to buy:

made in the usa

That should give you a nice listing of what to buy to stop feeding the beast.

reply to post by PapaKrok


Star for you. I hope people took the time to read your post. Unfortunately people here seem a little lazy when it comes to that. A very interesting read anyways.

What I find fascinating about OWS is that it is a world wide movement, the first of its kind we have ever seen. I am very curious as to see where this will lead. Your description really matches exactly the way OWS is developing itself here in Holland, organizing it self, defining itself.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

To correct this ship and we are demanding change that benefits all instead of a select few.

You still didn't answer WHO you are demanding these changes from.

Do you even know?

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by PapaKrok

 

Well, I was with you until you touted support for PETA.

I don't support them or the terrorist group green peace. Any group that seeks to limit the rights of any individual should NEVER be supported!

lol, this is why I look at Libertarians as creatures from another planet.

I mean let's get this straight. There exists no group or organization anywhere that does not try to limit others. It simply has to in order to maintain itself.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by theovermensch

 

Oh, so because I think OWS was a waste I am a traitor? I am not an Obama supporter, and where did I support the government? I don't support socialism either. Just because I think OWS was a waste doesn't mean anything more than that. They had no clear goals, no leaders, and targeted the wrong thing. It attracted "socialists" and leftists by the hoards. If you support OWS, then you are a traitor and a socialist. Any self respecting American would not support OWS.

If the OWS movement had targeted our government in DC, then maybe I would have supported it. If their message had been targeted at corrupt politicians, then maybe I would have supported it. But targeting a group of wealthy people who will never, I repeat NEVER bow to OWS or their wants is a waste of time. OWS was misguided from the start, and did nothing more than infuriate average Americans with their child like behavior.

So before you go name calling, and using baseless accusations, maybe you should sit back and actually understand that the OWS movement did not reflect the sentiment of the real 99%. Don't speak for others unless you are 100% sure you actually represent their beliefs, feelings and concerns!

I know you are not a socialist. I am messing with you. I am a socialist.
And I am sick of neocon McCarthyists calling Obama a socialist. Its stupid.
And I dont speak for anyone.
Neither did OWS,you know it is apolitical and concensus direct democracy.Couldnt be more open.
It is anti-duopoly.
If you are a democrat or republican that means you support the regime.It means you are a traitor to the human race. Everyone that supports and cheers on the corrupt and evil duopoly regime is a traitor. Lets get that clear.

OWS will emerge again. They are waiting for Ron Paul to fail to gain the republican nomination.
And he will fail.

Things are going to get worse in America not better. More and more will turn away from the regime.
OWS will be a factor in the elections.

I dont think you have any reason to be "infuriated" with OWS. I think every person around the globe should be infuriated at Americans that support an evil regime. That means democrats and republicans.

reply to post by dadgad


NRA doesn't. Are they trying to limit peoples access to guns? No. Do they show up at shooting matches and scream in the shooters eras to disrupt them? No. There are groups out there who do not try to force their beliefs on others. The NRA simply supports the second amendment, period.

In answer to the ORIGINAL question in this thread and my .02


ALL Occupy groups are different. They actually DO have leaders regardless of what they keep saying and it depends on the leaders.. or the groups that take over original leadership... as to how idiotic they are. You can call them organizers or whatever you want.. if someone(s) are telling a group what to do or guiding them in a certain direction... thats a leader. Our group in this area has a team of leaders, 2 in the field, and legal representation. The leaders are more/acorn and the one field leader is an avowed socialist who is fighting for his vision.


The "Occupy" in my area completely changed and I pulled complete support. In fact,several of us originals left the group. It started out with the more/acorn people taking over and the original organizer started gettiing death threats, then they camped out in the park downtown which was no big deal, then they started fights with average citizens who came to the park (one of the incidents is on film on youtube) , .. on and on... until lately they are occupying foreclosed homes. Sounds interesting huh? Nope, they go to a person who's home is getting foreclosed on ( about 100 people last time) and actually just have a party.. then leave the next day. The home is still getting foreclosed on and the host who has no money just hosted a 100 person party that did nothing to help and the foreclosure is going through. Afterward they all petted eachother on livestream and the sites about the "accomplishment" ( I still dont know what it accomplished) .. and are looking for another party venue AKA broke person being foreclosed on. FOr whatever reason these adults think that the POLICE own foreclosed homes.. weird and thats on youtube as well. Right now they are being watched because they had a huge banner up on private property, were told to take it down, took it down and got together to get some of the women to falsely accuse the cop that told them to take it down of sexual harassment! I wont even get into the recorded live stream where they were actually upset over NOT being pepper sprayed by the cops or beaten when arrested. They were caught lying about destruction of their property becasue of it all being filmed. Its just gone REALLY REALLY downhill here from what the goals and ideas were originally before the takeover.

I dunno... it changed BADLY. At first I could buy into it, contributed to the stuff and soon as these new people stepped in.. voila. So no.. I definitely do NOT take the OWS in my are anywhere near seriously and I dont want to be associated with some of the things they do and say in public.

Its a shame, Id have loved for them to have some power and get some of these ridiculous things happening in our govt out in the opening. Id sen that there was a chance for it to go either way in the initial stages and spoke about it here on ATS. Well, the thing Id feared actually happened.

To those on here defending all OWS across the board as if they all have the same goals and methods......you better stick to defending the groups you know personally because if you defend this kind of behavior just because they call themselves OWS, that may be why people are disagreeing with your support. 2 in Missouri.. the St louis group and the Springfield group are very different, now Springfield is getting all wrapped up with more. I dont think that this whole thing will last muvh longer because they really dont represent the 99% anymore in our area and the 99% know it.

reply to post by theovermensch


If you are a socialist then you are a traitor. American was not formed to be a socialist, marxist, communist or any of the other "ist" or "ism" groups you want to throw out there. It was meant to be a free republic. To support anything but that purpose is to expose yourself as the traitor to your own countrymen, and a slap in the face of the forefathers who gave you your freedom.

Oh, and it appears through reading a lot of your posts that you are in fact trolling to get responses from people. I therefore will not be responding to any more of your posts.

reply to post by PapaKrok

I disagree with you. It is that very refusal to work within a broken, rigged paradigm that lends them relevancy.

So if you don't want to work within the system...and you want change...to me that means you want to overthrow the system. Is that correct?

If so, what system do you want to replace the current one with?

That is what makes them so damn dangerous and a major concern to TPTB. Any group working within the paradigm is manageable and co-optable. Any group with established leadership is co-optable. Any group with a unified agenda is co-optable. Occupy is not.

Any group that is so willing to stay out of the system is of no concern. You are still subject to the laws...what do politicians care if you don't want to attempt to change them within the system.

No one is going to listen to you...because you are NOT a threat to anyone. You pose no danger of voting anyone out, you pose no danger of getting any of your ideas into congress...OWS is irrelevant. It is to be used as a talking point...and that is being done right now. You may not "participate" directly in the "right/left paradigm"...but they are using you like pawns. And the best thing is they don't even have to be concerned about pleasing you...they just use you.


You can lie to yourself all you want...to date, nothing has changed...nothing has talked about being changed...and outside your "general assemblies"...no one cares.

You say OWS can't be co-opted...that is so funny. IF someone wanted to co-opt OWS...you guys provide the very means to do so by your "consensus" process. I simply have to get more people that agree with me rather than OWS and march them all down to OWS. If OWS had any influence, somoene would of already done this...but since they don't...NO ONE CARES.

reply to post by haarvik


It appears to me that you are a conservative troll that is part of the Republican 50 cent army.

I am not American and not a traitor.

Your founding fathers didnt create a country to be run by corporations.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The reason you will not respond is because you prefer to argue with people that make alot of spelling mistakes. You know you are outmatched.

You are a traitor if you are an imperial citizen and support the regime. A traitor to the human race.