Humanizing/Dehumanizing the Messiah....what do you actually expect....

Originally posted by Drala
..all the little god are expressions of god...its like folder divisions...the ROUTE FOLDER is GOD and the sub folders are litte gods

But that is not what the Biblical God says. He denies it. Choose that viewpoint if you like, but it is not compatible with the Biblical God.

excuse.**Are you married....would you "ALLOW" you wife to "TALK" to another man....did you give me that one on purpose? That's almost to obvious
....women can make their own choices....and if they married in love...i doubt he will have to worry about anything that a conversation may lead to..

I did not say "talk". I said "prostitute". Look up the word "prostitute" if you're not familar with it.
I chose that metaphor because it is one of the standard metaphors used in the Old Testament.

..You telling GOD he didn't create all of this? OK.....g'luck with that...I can put in a good word for you, but I doubt he will listen to you....I think he will be in everything, despite your inability or unwillingness to look...

What I'm doing is listening to a God telling me that he does not want me to have other gods.
You are evading the logical problem with woolly thinking. Two incompatibles cannot be combined.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Drala
..all the little god are expressions of god...its like folder divisions...the ROUTE FOLDER is GOD and the sub folders are litte gods

But that is not what the Biblical God says. He denies it. Choose that viewpoint if you like, but it is not compatible with the Biblical God.

excuse.**Are you married....would you "ALLOW" you wife to "TALK" to another man....did you give me that one on purpose? That's almost to obvious
....women can make their own choices....and if they married in love...i doubt he will have to worry about anything that a conversation may lead to..

I did not say "talk". I said "prostitute". Look up the word "prostitute" if you're not familar with it.
I chose that metaphor because it is one of the standard metaphors used in the Old Testament.

..You telling GOD he didn't create all of this? OK.....g'luck with that...I can put in a good word for you, but I doubt he will listen to you....I think he will be in everything, despite your inability or unwillingness to look...

What I'm doing is listening to a God telling me that he does not want me to have other gods.
You are evading the logical problem with woolly thinking. Two incompatibles cannot be combined.

OK GOD NEVER SAID ANYTHING....he tells prophets then they interpret....get it straight....only talking god does in your dreams....

the prostitution thing...that was my point. Talking to another person about his beliefs is not prostitution, that was why i teased you, why did you make it so easy,you really thing talking right now in this thread with me that you are a prostitute within your own faith LMAO

Its ok to discuss....There is no "I" in team...BUT there is an invisible "GOD" in there...open up, or be left behind...we are a family and we need to sit and have a family chat...you are like a child running from the table...Although it is easier that way...

Originally posted by Drala

OK GOD NEVER SAID ANYTHING....he tells prophets then they interpret....get it straight....only talking god does in your dreams....

So he said it by telling Moses.
Doesn't materially affect the issue.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
What I'm doing is listening to a God telling me that he does not want me to have other gods.
You are evading the logical problem with woolly thinking. Two incompatibles cannot be combined.

Are you TRULY listening to our Creator, or are you only basing and issuing judgements upon your own stubbornly held pre-concieved exclusive illogical notions about religion?

Be still, listen to your heart, and seek for the truth, more so in this day and age where information is so readily avaliable.....

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

If you want logic, it is not logically possible to believe in incompatible things simultaneously.
Therefore it is illogical to believe simultaneously in a God who said "You shall have no other gods but me", and in other gods.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord..."- Isaiah ...this is your sig....LET ME ASK YOU...who do you think is reasoning together....Just a few people? Or did he mean all of us? Like in school we are a team, and we must work together to reason out what is truth and lies...TOGETHER...no exclusion....

to deny god is in everything is blasphemy....GOD did not write the new testament...66 people did....so 66 people are 100% correct, and the thousands that wrote the books they based the testament are wrong...

I wish you the best, but when the time comes you will not recognize him...unless you open your heart...he may have already tried...

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by chr0naut
If He was just a common man, his life meant nothing, even if He had some great philosophy/moral teaching.

I am sorry you have such a low opinion of the common man. The fact that he was a common man who presented wisdom that confounded the wise was what made Christ exceptional. If he were God incarnate, then it is no miracle that the wise were confounded. Saying his life meant nothing is to ignore what he taught. His wisdom is the salvation of the world. To rebel against it is to rebel against oneself.

Originally posted by chr0naut
If He was God incarnate, it means God loves us enough to suffer for us and that He wants for us to love Him too.

His teachings were that we are all part of God, made in his image, and should therefore treat each other as such. God still suffers for us. Anytime you see a brother or sister in distress, it is God suffering for our indifference to each other.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Not a God in a distant ivory tower heaven, but one who feels our hurt.

Yes, and is reflected in the sufferings of our Brothers and Sisters.

Originally posted by chr0naut
It means also that there will be no other like Him

Nor another like you. You are just as special and just as loved. So to do you have it within you to love as Christ loved. Be perfect.

With Love,

Your Brother

I don't have a low opinion of the common man, but I do look around and see his true situation.

We aren't God. We didn't create our universe. We cannot influence the physical world by thought (or word) alone (OK, there are quantum effects but not ones that are discernible at our scale).

Jesus never said we are all part of God. He said that God was other to ourselves and that only through Himself could we know God.

The idea that we all are small fragments of God comes from Eastern Mystical philosophy & New Age books, not from the Judaeo-Christian theology.

Amazing the "wise" people of His day is hardly a miracle. David Copperfield could probably do a better job of that.

A photograph of me is in my image but I don't think I attribute great physical capability to it. We are in the image of God, yes, but so what. It DOESN'T mean we are God or have His capability. You need to tone down your intellectual ego a bit and see the wonder that a loving God has done so much for us.

His wisdom is not the salvation of the world. His death in our place is.

I am not saved through some intellectual feat of my own (I'm not even sure that I'd know where to start!). I am saved by a God who loves.

Read the book of Job to get a grasp upon how little we can do for redeeming ourselves out of this mess.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

If you want logic, it is not logically possible to believe in incompatible things simultaneously.
Therefore it is illogical to believe simultaneously in a God who said "You shall have no other gods but me", and in other gods.

It is not just logic that one seeks, but COMPREHENSION as well. Did you even attempt to comprehend other religions before you came to the conclusion that other 'gods' are not compatible?

Were those other mainstream religions practiced by many's supreme being any different from yours? Do they ask for human sacrifice, to steal, to cheat, to kill, etc? None, if you would only seek for knowledge to free yourself, the way you would attend your religious services, fellowships and rituals daily or weekly.

Is an orange in Jaffa, Palestine any different from an orange in Europe? None. They are still orange, compatible to each other. The ONLY difference is the man-made barrier we call 'countries' that separates us all.

Are Californian grapes any different from French grapes? None. They are compatible and of the same category. Californian grapes may be sweeter and French grapes more fagrant but still are grapes. The only differences are only man-made - such as geological barriers called countries, the sowing, tending, the culturing and the harvesting of it.

Similar too with mainstream religions.We had all been worshipping the same Creator all along. The differences are onlyl man-made.

The only different and incompatible god is the one worshipped by the 1% on Earth. His name is Mamon, the diety that promises wealth which are only illusions for he has no power except to lie, and had led mankind astry with his one and only law - survival of the fittest, regressing mankind back to the jungles, instead of what mainstream religions are doing to lead mankind to progress and evolution leaving none behind.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101. Did you even attempt to comprehend other religions before you came to the conclusion that other 'gods' are not compatible?

It is part of the definition of the Biblical God, not to be compatible with other gods.
So it is only necessary to understand that definition.
"You shall have no other gods but me". You can't get past that.
That statement clearly means "There are other gods which are not-Me, and I want you to have nothing to do with them."

Therefore it is not logically possible to hold to the Biblical God and to those other gods at one and the same time.
One or the other, perhaps, not both

Originally posted by DISRAELI
It is part of the definition of the Biblical God, not to be compatible with other gods.
So it is only necessary to understand that definition.
"You shall have no other gods but me". You can't get past that.
That statement clearly means "There are other gods which are not-Me, and I want you to have nothing to do with them."

Therefore it is not logically possible to hold to the Biblical God and to those other gods at one and the same time.
One or the other, perhaps, not both

edit on 16-12-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

No one is asking you to give up on your own individual sense of worship belief system or more critical, your free will.

But you do have to acknowledge the fact, as a rational person, that proven compatibility is a reality before your eyes now.

There is nothing wrong to acknowledge a monotheistic supreme being shared by all, just as there is nothing wrong over the form of worship as dictated by our elected or societal chosen mortal leaders.

It is only through such knowledge that we can bridge our man-made differences, resolve long standing problems, progress and evolve as we mankind were intended to. It is only the FORM of worship, or the true moral standing of our leaders, that separates us all, just as geological barriers, language, education opportunities, even selfish mortal exclusivities, that had separated our ancestors to common fellowship to honor the one true Creator of mankind.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101. Did you even attempt to comprehend other religions before you came to the conclusion that other 'gods' are not compatible?

It is part of the definition of the Biblical God, not to be compatible with other gods.
So it is only necessary to understand that definition.
"You shall have no other gods but me". You can't get past that.
That statement clearly means "There are other gods which are not-Me, and I want you to have nothing to do with them."

Therefore it is not logically possible to hold to the Biblical God and to those other gods at one and the same time.
One or the other, perhaps, not both

edit on 16-12-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

LOGICAL?? HE said to live from your HEART..

I said to myself "do not bother with this thread no matter what you read", but again and again the compulsion to reach you...I will lay this thread to rest, after this gesture one last time....the BIBLE was written by man....and the New Testament was written by 66 people....Christ did not write the whole New testament...you are choosing the words of others over your saviors...

There is only one GRAND GOD, and everything falls within it....including that which you deny yourself, the communion to GOD and ALL YOUR FELLOW MAN....

Do you really think we are all evil doers trying to attack you, read the words in this thread...there are many of love and tolerance, also of intolerance and ignorance....Does the one you pray to grant you wisdom and protection? You hide behind the words of men...forsaking your brothers for lies...WE HAVE ALL BEEN MISLED...DO you think during the 2000 years every religion has not been tainted?? Be part of the solution not the problem....we must LOVE not judge....

Perhaps this is why you are where you are, HERE, to remind that we cannot reach everyone, no matter what we may try. Know that you can choose to open your heart, there will always be love for you here. It was and always has been your choice to accept...

You need to ask yourself, if satan has been in charge the last 2000 years or so...and the new testament is largely the newest most mainstream translation of ancient teachings, does it not make you wonder if it might be also the most influenced by the ages....and who has been in charge for this age? They are using beautiful words of love and tolerance, then twisting them and reinterpreting them to tell you " do not love and tolerate your fellow man"...you have no right to disobey, you must love and turn the other cheek, there are no exceptions!!

PS Within Christianity ENGLISH-----GOD, FRENCH-----DIEU, ITALIAN------DIO(oh oh that sounds like evil heavy metal group....ohhhhhh crap I am scared), HEBREW----'7x(sorry hard to type the real characters lol)

POINT BEING WAKE UP....GOD has DIFFERENT NAMES for DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND PLACES .........


NO WONDER JESUS GOT SO FRUSTRATED WITH IGNORANT PEOPLE, YOU REALIZE IT WAS HIS OWN PEOPLE THAT CHEERED AS HE WAS TORMENTED....would you be one of the fools tricked into killing/denying own lord??

Next time I will keep my word...G'luck brother....
אל‎

Originally posted by Drala
LOGICAL?? HE said to live from your HEART..

No, he didn't.
Show me a Biblical authority for that instruction.
Without that authority, it's just something you've made up.
Without some kind of source, you cannot claim to know "what he said".

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

The crucial question is this;
The God who spoke through Moses and the prophets claimed to be the Creator of the world.
Did the Creator that you want to acknowledge speak through Moses and the prophets? If the answer is "Yes", then welcome to the ranks of Biblical believers.
If the answer is "No", then you are acknowledging that they are not the same god. Which makes them different gods. Which makes it logically impossible, at one and the same time, to hold to the God who spoke through Moses and the prophets, and also to hold to the one who did not speak through Moses and the prophets. One of them must be wrong, by logical necessity.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

The crucial question is this;
The God who spoke through Moses and the prophets claimed to be the Creator of the world.
Did the Creator that you want to acknowledge speak through Moses and the prophets? If the answer is "Yes", then welcome to the ranks of Biblical believers.
If the answer is "No", then you are acknowledging that they are not the same god. Which makes them different gods. Which makes it logically impossible, at one and the same time, to hold to the God who spoke through Moses and the prophets, and also to hold to the one who did not speak through Moses and the prophets. One of them must be wrong, by logical necessity.

edit on 16-12-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

The one creator is the only one that speaks through all of us....the prophets tune into the peace of the lord and receive his teachings...

ITS THE SAME GOD...different names. MY GOD is the GOD of the PROPHETS...and my authority you may question, as is your right...but be warned you are walking down a road that leads you only into loneliness and fear...if you choose this path your days will be filled with the same separateness you express now, only by changing what they have done to you can you be whole again ...we offer you love and you turn in fear....you do not even recognize the difference anymore....

The messiah will not agree 100% with the new testament...sorry, but that is the truth. he will accept most of the teachings, but much will be torn from the pages as quickly as god would spew the lukewarm from his lips....


the new testament is not 100%...it is not written by gods hand...all books are written by men...

PS AGAIN I CANNOT GIVE UP ON YOU....why must you do this...just go and investigate the mystery...nobody has it all figured out...

Even the messiah is not GOD...he will only offer parts of the mystery, you must learn this and love your brothers, and help them to learn to love, that is your only obligation in this....learn love, and spread love...not this hiding game you play....peeking from behind a book of interpretations....most of which were never from Jesus...WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF? WHY ARE YOU AFRAID...recite the lords prayer and they go investigate...you will be protected...this hiding isn't going to help anyone...

I DO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE...but not 100% of the time are the guys writting it down correct...GODS INSPIRATION is PURE but the product is TAINTED by mans HAND...

Originally posted by Drala
The messiah will not agree 100% with the new testament

In that case, he will not be the messiah predicted in the New Testament, who is expected to be the returned Jesus.

I repeat the point I made earlier; if you reject the authority of the Bible, you have no rational reason for expecting any kind of messiah, because the information "there will be a messiah" is not coming to you from anywhere else. "Messiah" is a Biblical concept.
Your logical options are to accept the Bible and its teachings, including a messiah, or to reject the Bible and its teachings, including a messiah.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Drala
The messiah will not agree 100% with the new testament

In that case, he will not be the messiah predicted in the New Testament, who is expected to be the returned Jesus.

I repeat the point I made earlier; if you reject the authority of the Bible, you have no rational reason for expecting any kind of messiah, because the information "there will be a messiah" is not coming to you from anywhere else. "Messiah" is a Biblical concept.
Your logical options are to accept the Bible and its teachings, including a messiah, or to reject the Bible and its teachings, including a messiah.

Messiah is a biblical concept, but a savior is not.

Annointed ones come from all sects. Ask them.

That aside, where did Jesus himself actually say he, Jesus, was coming again.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by chr0naut
I don't have a low opinion of the common man, but I do look around and see his true situation.

We aren't God. We didn't create our universe. We cannot influence the physical world by thought (or word) alone (OK, there are quantum effects but not ones that are discernible at our scale).

Sure we can. Jesus proved this!

And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

I seem to remember him marveling over the power a certain Roman soldier had over his men, how he could command them. Christ lamented that he did not have followers of such faith.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Jesus never said we are all part of God. He said that God was other to ourselves and that only through Himself could we know God.

What ever Christ said about himself, he was teaching his disciples about themselves. That is why he called them Brothers and Sisters.

Originally posted by chr0naut
The idea that we all are small fragments of God comes from Eastern Mystical philosophy & New Age books, not from the Judaeo-Christian theology.

Actually it is straight forward Old time monotheism. God is Omnipresent (Everywhere, including within you and I), Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient.

We are each a part of the whole, and we cannot understand the whole if we do not come to understand each point of view. I cannot know God without knowing you. I cannot know God without knowing Jesus. You cannot know God without knowing me. Jesus cannot know God without knowing me. Jesus knows me for Jesus is within me, just as he is within you.

Where else do you think this image is being created? It isn't in our hands or we would be able to look up our nose. Then again, if we lose the eyes, our world would be that which the rest of our senses tell us. Take them all away and all you have is nothing. Nothing with which to base your existence on.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Amazing the "wise" people of His day is hardly a miracle. David Copperfield could probably do a better job of that.

You do not amaze the wise with parlor tricks. You amaze the wise by silencing their tongue and opening their ears.

Originally posted by chr0naut
A photograph of me is in my image but I don't think I attribute great physical capability to it. We are in the image of God, yes, but so what. It DOESN'T mean we are God or have His capability. You need to tone down your intellectual ego a bit and see the wonder that a loving God has done so much for us.

His wisdom is not the salvation of the world. His death in our place is.

Tone down my intellectual ego huh?

No.

I will not tone down my intellectual ego. I am a braggard for God because that is what he made me to be. It is written that way.

It is not for my own glory that I brag. I brag because the relationship I have with God is one everyone has. Some just seem to prefer scape goats.

Christ died because he was fulfilling prophecy. Everything about his crucifixion was according to prophecy. He had to die to fulfill prophecy. Why?

Because some are so blind that they cannot believe that there is an intelligent creator who has a divine will for us without someone coming up with proofs. So, God gave Man proofs through the various sacred writings. They all have prophecy to validate them and prophecy is dependant on someone stepping up to the plate and saying they will fulfill the prophecy. Only someone driven by God would attempt such feats because of the various challenges to any would be fulfiller of prophecy. I mean who would love there people so much that they would be willing to fulfill a prophecy that called for their crucifixion?

Sheesh! Fortunately, THAT is what Jesus did for us. He fulfilled THAT part of the messianic prophecy. The second coming of the Son of Man has a very different character than the humble carpenter. You may want to get acquainted with that description for the imposter would probably try aweful hard to be Jesus rather than the light of Christ shining through in his own way.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Messiah is a biblical concept, but a savior is not.

Messiah is the word being used in this thread. When the OP uses Christian concepts, that is what opens it up to Christian critique.

That aside, where did Jesus himself actually say he, Jesus, was coming again.

a) He refers to himself as the Son of Man, frequently.
b) He tells them to expect the Son of Man.
It's just a matter of putting the two statements together.
The writers in the rest of the New Testament agree in that understanding.
"This same Jesus...shall come in like manner as you saw him go..." Acts ch1 v11
"Even so, come Lord Jesus" Revelation ch22 v20

Originally posted by DISRAELI
a) He refers to himself as the Son of Man, frequently.
b) He tells them to expect the Son of Man.
It's just a matter of putting the two statements together.
The writers in the rest of the New Testament agree in that understanding.

I am the Son of an American. When the Son of an American is president, all dogs will go to heaven. Does this necessarily mean I will be president?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
"This same Jesus...shall come in like manner as you saw him go..." Acts ch1 v11
"Even so, come Lord Jesus" Revelation ch22 v20

Nice, but neither of these are Jesus saying he will return. There is scripture that shows he says he, Jesus, will not return in the flesh.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

He returned to the father, ie, there is no coming back. The life energy that creates us returns to it's source once used. It is within us all.

Jesus said that he was not coming back, and that another would be sent.

These are Jesus's words, not those of an apostle.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Nice, but neither of these are Jesus saying he will return.

The two statements taken together add up to the statement that he will return.
If, in the course of Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado,
a )Koko says "We were married in front of the Registrar"
b) And Pooh-Bah says "I am the Registrar", then we are entitled to conclude that
c) Koko was married in front of Pooh-Bah.

Similarly
a) "the Son of Man will come
b) when added to "I am the Son of Man"
c) provides the conclusion "I will come"
It's called the application of logic.

Jesus said that he was not coming back, and that another would be sent.

Not a single word in the long passage you quoted from John contains a denial that he would be coming back.
He says that he is going and that another would be sent to be with us, to make up for his absence; but he certainly does not make any denial about returning later.

Millions of men leave for work every morning and tell their wives that they are going, but most of them come back.
So you are not entitled to deduce "I am not coming back" from the statement "I am going".