Should the troops be pulled out of Iraq?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You have spoken much truth, but our commitment to Iraq must remain resolute.

I agree but leaders do what the ballot box tells them to do not what should be done. so far the insugents have the upper hand the yanks wont attack the insurgents if there in a sacred site because they dont want to inflame the middle east. Wake up people hate the USA alreadly were better off risking short term anger and winning the war rather then take no risks and lose the war.

n0o they need to keep them there so iraq doesnt get any dumb ideas...

Originally posted by conan
n0o they need to keep them there so iraq doesnt get any dumb ideas...

What dumb are ideas are you refering to?
Right now the Iraq government cant do a great deal that the americans dont want them to.

I think a lot of iraqi's believe that their government just now is a puppet to the US as it was picked not chosen. If they want respect they will need to get iraqi security forces a lot more involved and not keep calling in the Marines. Let iraqis police their own country but leave the troops there to combat OUTSIDE forces. And keep the oil flowing lol.

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
I think a lot of iraqi's believe that their government just now is a puppet to the US as it was picked not chosen. If they want respect they will need to get iraqi security forces a lot more involved and not keep calling in the Marines. Let iraqis police their own country but leave the troops there to combat OUTSIDE forces. And keep the oil flowing lol.

When they are killing Iraqi people like in Najaf, they lost all credibility. But what can you expect a puppet government do?

Muslim clerics clerics caused the problem not the iraqi government. Radicals and extremists who have their own agenda.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

"If some years were added to my life, I would devote fifty of them to the study of the oracle, and might then avoid committing great errors. "


[edit on 04/9/7 by GradyPhilpott]

Lao Tsu Wrote

Chapter 31

Good weapons are instruments of fear;
all creatures hate them.
Therefore followers of the Tao never used them.
The wise man prefers the left.
The man of war prefers the right.
Weapons are instruments of fear;
they are not a wise man's tools.
He uses them only when he has no choice.
Peace and quiet are dear to his heart.
And victory no cause for rejoicing.
If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing;
If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.
On happy occasions precedence is given to the left, on sad occasions to the right.
In the army the general stands on the left, the commander-in-chief on the right.
This means that war is conducted like a funeral.
When many people are being killed, they should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow.
That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral.

www.nokama.com...

Far too many have shown rejoicing in this war in Iraq.

Wraith

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
Will it leave a vacuum for the radicals and extremists to take over an make another afghanistan or greater Iran.

Im in favour of them staying but would like to hear other views on the matter. cheers

Ehhh :NO . The troops will be for long, long , time....

I think the troops should be out of there ASAP.

The problem is the 'as possible' bit.

'We're' there now. Thoroughly mired in the unholy mess of it all......and thanks to the base building giving every indication that 'we' intend to stay for the foreseeable future - which IMO was always the plan; when Saudi Arabia got too much trouble to remain in Iraq was always going to be the next best thing.....and together with Afghanistan it's very handy to run several oil and gas pipe-lines across from all over(Russia included), provided they remain intact.

But IMO for as long as western troops remain there they are likely to destroy the legitimacy of any government that claims to have a local mandate. They will be dismissed as mere puppets. Great.

I don't doubt that some Iraqis are trying to get a normal life together but I also have my doubts that there is little support for the 'insurgents' or that the people are becoming incresingly very hostile to to the troops and the occupation in larger and larger areas. In fact in some areas the troops have pulled out altogether such is the level of danger.

If the people really do not support the troops being there then all this is merely putting off the moment they have to leave; the longer the worse.

They have done there Mission, bring them back!

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
Muslim clerics clerics caused the problem not the iraqi government. Radicals and extremists who have their own agenda.

That is your understanding inherited from CNN, Fox, BBC.
The judgement should be left to Iraqi people and Iraqi people only. They are the people behind the Resistance. With the majority people against US occupation, US will fail sooner or later. In my opinion, US has already failed, and is just postponing the humiliating withdraw.

I don't know how you could consider it failed already. We have ONLY had 1000 casualties? This is unprecedented. Now trust me, I never wanted us to go into this war in the first place but I think we are far far from losing it. We have installed a govt. and it is growing. The infrastructure is growing day by day. The Iraqi troops and police are growing, getting trained and getting more involved. I think as time goes by, the situation will get better. Its really amazing on how people compare Iraq to Vietnam. Thats like comparing apples and oranges. The only common denominator is that they are both Wars.

Pulling out would be the biggest mistake ever and radical factions would end up killing off more civilians and commence ethnic clensing in that region. It would be heartwrenching to see that happen. I think the troops need to stay until Iraq can stand on its own two feet again. All you "pull your troops out" people really need to think of how bad it would be for us and for them if we were to do that. We started this, we need to finish it.

Originally posted by build319
I don't know how you could consider it failed already. We have ONLY had 1000 casualties? This is unprecedented.

There weren't that many casualties in the first few years of the Vietnam war but they increased as the war went on.

www.commondreams.org... :
The Vietnam War started with a slower death rate. The United States had been involved in Vietnam for six years before total fatalities surpassed 500 in 1965, the year President Lyndon B. Johnson ordered a massive buildup of forces. There were 20,000 troops in Vietnam by the end of 1964. There were more than 200,000 a year later.

By the end of 1966, U.S. combat deaths in Vietnam had reached 3,910. By 1968, the peak of U.S. involvement, there were more than 500,000 troops in the country. During the same two-week period of April that year, 752 U.S. soldiers died, according to a search of records kept by the National Archives.

Granted, the number of troops at the start of the Vietnam war was small.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by AceOfBase]

Thanks for the information. I still think the scenarios are way to different to see that happening. The key factor is the involvement of the Iraqi govt. and making sure they are the ones directing the US troops for support. The other key factor is making sure we invest as much as we can into making Iraq a prosperous country again. If we knock down a house we should have people there the next day to put one up. I am speaking figurativly of course but making sure the Iraqi people know we are there to help more than just give them food rations and shoot their neighbors. If we win the hearts of the majority we will be able to pull out much faster than any force will do.

If we backout now the end results would be catastrophic.

It would be disingenuous to compare Iraq to Vietnam prior to April as American troops were not �officially� approved to engage in offensive ground operations prior(1962 for firing back). So the percentages are as follows:
1965 0.010109
1966 0.015946
1967 0.022967
and every year after was worse than the year prior�.in the year and a half of this conflict
0.007731 using current troop levels of 130000
0.005289 using troop levels of 190000 to average for earlier hi troop counts

Additionally the percentage of wounded is even more drastically reduced. Disregarding the fact that causalities happen at half the rate of Vietnam�..to compare Vietnam and iraq as they developed in different manners would be difficult at best.

Sad to say...but I don't think we have any choice but to stay. However....let the Iraqis starts fighting for themselves. Just like in Vietnam...we had to fight the war for them.

Sorry my friend but if you think its just the iraqi people involved with the coalition forces in iraq then you are naive. This conflict is about more than iraq.

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
Sorry my friend but if you think its just the iraqi people involved with the coalition forces in iraq then you are naive. This conflict is about more than iraq.

I know other than UK, Poland, Italy and Ukraine, about 3 dozens of other countries have contributed symbolic troops in Iraq.

I know Iraq war is about US control of natural resources in Middle East and Central Asia in attempt to build US empire. The next target will be Iran and possibly Syria. Iraq war is just the first in a series invasions planned.

I am also interested in what you mean by "about more than iraq". If you mean "spread of democracy or way of life", I suggest your save it for yourself.

Zcheng you state that oil is another reason and a base for attacking syria and iran is another. And please don't lecture me on empire building as china is not just a bystander and will try by means to make its influence felt elsewhere and oil is on chinas mind as well if your honest. What i meant is that bin ladens boys are there, and other factions. And support is coming from other countries to these factions.

Read this...
news.bbc.co.uk...

Real voices from Iraq. Sounds like if those who are still loyal to the former regime would turn to peaceful means everything would be great in Iraq. The US has done such a favor to the Iraq people. In every war there will be casualties, innocent lives lost, but the fruit of this war will be great and felt for decades to come.