Are the Palestinians Invented? - Lie or Truth?

Here are two interesting videos about the land of Israel and the Palestinians form PPSIMMONS. My view is that these two videos are correct. Please avoid making this about Newt. Focus on the correct view of history and provide context to back your stated opinions. This should be about facts only and not bias against others. None of the bloodshed is justified by either side. Love dispels hatred. We all agree on this. What I am focusing on here is historical fact or fiction.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Sorry Ed, there are already two available threads on this subject.

Here is the thread I started on the topic.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is another one too, sorry I can't find the link. I think it was posted in US political madness or breaking political news.

He has since come out and defended his remarks about the Palestinian people. Newt is nothing but a Zionist stooge. The Christian Zionists are making themselves known as of lately, even more so than before.

I do see that your thread has some information that the other ones didn't contain so hopefully your thread can stay.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


I normally check. Good call. Either way, this can be discussed in this thread form a biblical view since it is in the religion section. Thanks you for pointing it out.

I understand the "no nation existed there" argument and I still think it's crap.

There was no recognized nation in the Americas either - does that mean it was ok to slaughter millions of American Indians? There is no nation in the far north, does that mean we should evict all the eskimos? So your justification for the genocide of the Palestinian people is that they didn't have a government representing them that the Western World acknowledged?

Since when in Western History does the existence of a nation indicate automatic respect for a sovereign authority anyway? If Palestine had a flag, as Eddie Izzard would say, would Israel have been given land somewhere else for their state? Something tells me no.

No flag, no country!




Hope a man in lipstick doesn't offend your religious nature.

aren't the palisines the philistines of the old testament that the hebrews slaughtered every man woman and child yo get to their 'promised land'? no wonder palastine wants its country back!

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Focus on the correct view of history and provide context to back your stated opinions. This should be about facts only and not bias against others.

Why not take your own advice and stop posting nonsense mmm?

Here is what he said:

“I think that we’ve had an invented Palestinian people who are in fact Arabs and who were historically part of the Arab community. And they had a chance to go many places, and for a variety of political reasons we have sustained this war against Israel now since the 1940s, and it’s tragic,” he said.

Here are the real 'facts'.
Genetically speaking, Palestinians (what the Bible calls Philistines) are essentially Jews who converted to Islam when the Arabs got there after 700 CE. They are pretty much the same people, and both (and Syrians and Lebanese people too) have a common ancestor in Kurdish people who entered the area from Iraq and Turkey several thousand years ago, as various studies have demonstrated. The Palestinians propably built their influence in the area after taking over abandoned Egyptian garrisons in Canaan, which they rebuilt. The only thing that separates Israelis and Palestinians today is religion. And a candidate for the presidency of the USA should know that Palestinians are not “invented”, or “Arabs”. He should also know that when the British took over Palestine in 1918, they were assisted by – Arab troops.

There is a thing called democracy, you know, the thing America is supposed to be going around the world to support.
Democracy means the nation is the people, as in who lives on the land.
What you have in Palestine is an invasion by a foreign nation, one called Zionism, to steal the land from the people, and to not have democracy, but Zionism which is just a form of tyranny masquerading as a democracy but it only includes those who are of the foreign invaders.
The fact that there was no normally recognized "nation" of Palestine was because of the work of the UK which held the territory after WW I after claiming it as being conquered from the Ottoman Empire, which the Turks were basically tricked into being allied with the Germans in that war. The British had to make the Turks look bad so they sacrificed the Australians and New Zelanders in an invasion into Turkey in such a way as they were sure to fail, so it makes the English look as if they are justified with taking the formerly Turkish controlled land. The British of course are the ones who declared the Zionist state, to start with, and this influenced by Lord Rothschild (Zionist) of the City of London banking cartel which to this day controls UK foreign policies for their own benefit.

Unfortunately, since most people don't know history, they need to rely on "experts" like Newt Gingrich to teach them...

Situated at a strategic location between Egypt, Syria and Arabia, and the birthplace of the Abrahamic religions, the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. The region has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphate, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians.

Palestine was among the earliest in the world to see human habitation, agricultural communities and civilization. During the Bronze Age, independent Canaanite city-states were established, and were influenced by the surrounding civilizations of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, Minoan Crete, and Syria.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by reficul
aren't the palisines the philistines of the old testament that the hebrews slaughtered every man woman and child yo get to their 'promised land'? no wonder palastine wants its country back!

...no they are not.
Studies have been done on this - the Palestinean people are ethnically Jordanian, and are of no relation whatsoever to the Biblical Philistines.

The only connection here is in the name - but the name "Palestine" was given to the land of Israel in mockery of the Jewish people, by the emperor Hadrian in around 135ad.... while "Palestinean" was adopted by the leadership of Gaza and the West Bank to serve a similar political purpose.

Now, I'm not arguing anything here in terms of the right to determine statehood or the nationalistic right to determine their status as a people, simply clarifying that... no, they are not the Philistines.

reply to post by Awen24


wow,thanx for the info! i was always under the impession....
i know jesus was from this area of the jordan,thus palastinian, no?
what are your thoughts about nazerath not existing until after jesus death.
he was nasorean no?

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Interesting videos. What people think they know about Zionism is recent, people don't even know beyond Theodore Herzl. They assume Zionism began in the 1890s and the Jews had no claim whatsoever to Israel. But let's look deeper, shall we?

Yerushalayim has never had a name change (except to the English version Jerusalem). The return of the Jews has been long before Theodore Herzl. I found this article from 1845

He spoke of Jerusalem as now filled to overflowing with returning Jews, many of whom, for want of accommodations, were resorting to Joppa, a neighbouring town.

Public Meeting on Behalf of the Jews

Joppa is Jaffa, and Jews were there long before the Ottoman Empire.

In 1515 Jaffa was conquered by the Ottoman Sultan Salim I. The seventeenth century saw the beginning of the re-establishment of churches and hostels for Christian pilgrims en route to Jerusalem and the Galilee.

There were no Palestinians before 1515, while Jews were still living there. The city was ransacked by Napoleon

On March 7, 1799 Napoleon I of France captured the town in what became known as the Siege of Jaffa, ransacked it, and killed scores of local inhabitants. Napoleon ordered the massacre of thousands of Muslim soldiers who were imprisoned having surrendered to the French.

The Arabs there saw themselves as part of the Ottoman Empire, but yet the Ottoman Empire no longer exists.

Under the Ottoman Empire, the Southern part of Ottoman Syria's Arab population mostly saw themselves as Ottoman subjects. The revolt was sparked off by Ottoman patriotism and sentiment against the heavy demand for conscripts, since the peasantry believed that conscription was little more than a death sentence. Starting in May 1834, the rebels took many cities, among them Nablus, Jerusalem and Hebron. In response, Ibrahim Pasha sent in an army, which on August 4, finally defeated the last rebels holding out in Hebron

How did those calling themselves Palestinians even get the land in the first place? Through invasion. And not only that, those same Palestinians chose to kill the Jews of the area that were living peacefully

On June 15, 1834,[10] Arab Muslim rioters went on a rampage, massacre,[11] [12] and mass-rape[13] on Jews in Safed. The pogrom went on for 33 days.[14] It caused the Jewish community to dwindle; many Jews were beaten to death or severely wounded. Accounts tell of blinding men, torturing men and women. It is not clear how many exactly died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500.[15] [edit] An estimated 750 of the town's Muslims had been drafted as soldiers, and some 500 of them were killed.[16] Hebron took part in the rebellion of 1834 in southern Ottoman Syria, and suffered badly from Ibrahim Pasha's campaign to crush the uprising. The town was laid to siege and, when the defences of the town fell, it was sacked by Ibrahim Pasha's army.[16][17] Most of the Muslim population managed to flee beforehand to the hills. Some of the Jewish community however stayed behind, and, during the general pillage of the town, five of them were killed. The majority however, like most of the Jews of Safed and Tiberias, fled to Jerusalem.[

This was in 1834, Jews in Israel were killed for being Jewish. The Jews did not start these problems, the Arabs did and they continue, but when the Jews say enough is enough, they defend themselves and the world condemns them for it.

Who is this Ibrahim Pasha? He was an Egyptian ruler who overthrew Saud rule. The current trouble is nothing more than the Egyptian-Saud War, the House of Saud wants their control back. What is the House of Saud?

The Emirate of Diriyah was the first Saudi state.[1] that was established in the year 1744 (1157 A.H.) when Imam Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Prince Muhammad ibn Saud formed an alliance to establish a religious & political sovereignty determined to cleanse the Arabian Peninsula of heretical practices and deviations from orthodox Islam.

The trouble was not started by the Jews, it is a continuation of the Saud-Ottoman war that the Arabs refuse to let go.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Yerushalayim has never had a name change . . .

Including when it was a Canaanite city before Abraham ever showed up. Also including when it was a Jebusite city before David captured it. So according to your logic, Jerusalem would be rightfully the city of the Canaanites and the Jebusites, which would be probably best given to the people who had always been there.
What you are leaving out is that the Jews are the European Jews who came from places like Germany, France, and Russia. The Ashkenazi Jews are the ones who are the dominant people politically and socially, in modern Israel, which are not the same as those people who had been there all along, being the Sephardi Jews.
You are being rather deceptive to say that what happened with modern Zionism had been going on all along, or that these were always the same people. The Ashkenazi Jews originated in central Asia and migrated into Europe and are not originally from Palestine, but were part of the old Persian Empire which the old Judea area was under until the Greeks took it over.

They assume Zionism began in the 1890s and the Jews had no claim whatsoever to Israel.

Here is the big problem with this whole thing, What is Israel?
You throw the term around and use it for several meanings, whatever fits into what you are talking about but in a vague sort of way where it could mean anything. What if you were talking to a Muslim and he kept throwing the word, Islam, into the conversation? What would he mean by the name? Does he mean a religion, or an Islamic state, or does he mean the whole world once they get complete control by carrying out the dictates of the religion. "Israel" could mean the complete enslavement of the entire world while self appointed Jews or whatever set themselves as kings. There is no border or boundary for the Modern State of Israel, where they just want to expand as far as they can, with no limit. Modern Israel had definite boundaries which it was supposed to stay within but immediately after being recognized as a state by Truman, went about overrunning those bounds and have never stopped.

There were no Palestinians before 1515 . . .

Anyone living in Palestine are Palestinians. Someone else wrote earlier that this is like saying there were no Americans before the Puritans came to Plymouth Rock.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Well technically they are an invented people, but keep in mind that all "people" or nations of people were invented originally. Before people began to live in cities there were no nations of people. If you hold any stock in evolution and archeaology (which i do) then you can go back to our predecessor species of hominid Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, they definately were not a nation of people and they just lived in small tribes.

Thats my story and i'm sticking to it. All nations are invented.

Now if we look at more recent times, as far back as 70 A.D. Palestine did not exist, nor did the palestinian people. They were not called palestinian people period. After the failed rebellion in 70 A.D. the jews that didn't die in the war (estimated 1.5 million jewish casualities) General Titus took 100k jews as slaves back to europe, the only jews that escaped the purge of Jerusalem were the judeo-christians who believed in Jesus and knew of his prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and they escaped into the wilderness before Titus made siege on the city. There were jews who tried to surrender but he slaughtered everyone of them that went over the walls (Flavius Josephus wrote about it). It is entirely possible that the people who call themselves the palestinians today could be decendants of those first century christians which could explain their claim on the land of Israel but that would make them the true Israelites as oppossed to the Zionists inhabiting their lands (and i believe this is a very strong possibility).

The "nation" of Palestine was created around 135 A.D. after the second failed jewish revolt in which the rest of Jerusalem that hadn't been destroyed in 70 A.D. was finished off and the destruction of Jerusalem was completed when Hadrian Caesar plowed under the temple mount and then renamed Israel into Palestine to add insult to a conquered people and to show them the price nations paid when they rebelled against Rome.

The Titus Arch erected in Rome was a commemoration of the destruction of Jerusalem.

www.bible.ca...

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Yes, Newt is right, the Palestinians are an invented people. They are Arabs. And interestingly, the other Arabs never gave two craps about them until Israel was reborn as a nation.

A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, the Jews suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

Jewish Facts VS Myths Online

reply to post by NOTurTypical

In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

I think the term, Jewish, is a misnomer and probably the only good use for the term now is to mean someone who adheres to the normal religion of Judaism.
The old Abrahamic promise by YHWH was about his descendants regardless of religious affiliation, so the promise is not to the "Jews", but to the people. The only fair way to deal with Palestine is to have one big country called, Palestine where there is true democracy, where all people are treated equally regardless of religious affiliation.
The point being, a lot of the people the author of your quotation is wrongly calling "Jews" are actually practicing Muslims and Christians.

reply to post by jmdewey60


There is a lot missing in your assumptions and suppositions. The people themselves never called themselves Palestinians, until the Arabs invaded, and when I say Arab, I mean those people of the House of Saud. There are no more people who are Canaanites or Jebusites, but there may be people who descend from them.

But as there are no people now who are Canaanites or Jebusites, then I suppose they are irrelevant. The Palestinians was created as a moniker by Hadrian, at least 70 years after the sacking of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes. There were Sephardic Jews who lived there, that is true, but what you are trying to do is separate a group of people by name. Sephardic are Jews from Portugal and Span, whereas Ashkenazi are Jews who were forced into Europe and I don't recall the Sephardic Jews having a problem with them returning.

Return

re·turn (r-tûrn) v. re·turned, re·turn·ing, re·turns v.intr. 1. To go or come back, as to an earlier condition or place. 2. To revert in speech, thought, or practice. 3. To revert to a former owner. 4. To answer or respond.

It is funny, the Jews have wanted to return to Y'srael, the land of their forefathers, they have never claimed that any other land in the world was theirs, except Y'srael, They were forced out of nations into other nations, laws being passed against them time and time again, and yet they never waged war against those nations. The Jews never fought wars against Russia, England, Germany, Poland, or any other country. Yet we see those nations willingly forcing them to move, time and time again. So they stopped going from country to country and decided to come home, and people like you deny them that right because you feel you have replaced them to the point you deny their very right to exist as a people. Israel is the only nation on earth named for a man who is a founder of a modern group of people. Find that in any other country.

Israel is a patriarch, and so named by God Himself, and God named the group of people and the land after that patriarch. Think about how amazing God is to do that. BTW, the Native Americans still live here. They have not been forced out.

What is a Jew? We don't have to have this discussion over and over again. You are not a Jew, so don't worry about who is. But think about this, those Palestinians are not really Arab, are they? And yet the Arabs forced onto them the language and religion of Mohammed. When someone hears the word Muslim, they automatically think those people are Arab...no, they are forced to assume identity, but the Jews have retained identity.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

I think the term, Jewish, is a misnomer and probably the only good use for the term now is to mean someone who adheres to the normal religion of Judaism.
The old Abrahamic promise by YHWH was about his descendants regardless of religious affiliation, so the promise is not to the "Jews", but to the people. The only fair way to deal with Palestine is to have one big country called, Palestine where there is true democracy, where all people are treated equally regardless of religious affiliation.
The point being, a lot of the people the author of your quotation is wrongly calling "Jews" are actually practicing Muslims and Christians.

Are you really that silly? To believe true democracy within a fascist theocracy? Are you really serious?

"Get thee out of thy country...unto a land that I will shew thee" (Gen. 12:1). Abraham "went on his journeys...to Bethel (in Central Israel) And the Lord said unto Abram...Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever...walk through the land...for I will give it unto thee" (Gen. 13:3,14-17). "The Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen. 15:18).) "I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession" (Gen. 17:8). "The promise that he (Abraham) should be the heir of the world" (Rom. 4:13)

You forget some Bible, rather conveniently...

"I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.... My covenant I will establish with Isaac (Genesis 17:19, 21). Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned (Genesis 21:12). To you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath which I swore to your father Abraham (Genesis 26:3).

Of which son was the promise carried through? Isaac. And who is Isaac? The father of Esau and Jacob. Esau was changed to Egypt, and Jacob was changed to Israel.

So if God promised Abraham a covenant, but through Isaac, then what does that mean for Jacob?

"May God give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham (Genesis 28:4). I will give you the land on which you are lying.... I will bring you back to this land (Genesis 28:13, 15). ...the land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you" (Genesis 35:12).

Here is a direct line of covenant promise through three patriarchs. All Jews today descend from Jacob. That was established by God Himself.

And now from Isaiah...

"...descendants from Jacob and Judah...will possess My mountains [i.e., the land]; My chosen people will inherit them and there will My servants live" (Isa. 65:9).

What? You mean God called them chosen and gave them land? What was Isaiah thinking? Surely as a prophet of the Most High God, he would have known there would be Ashkenazi and Sephardic. As much as we look to Isaiah as the prophet of the Messiah, we also need to accept him as the prophet of the covenant of God..in which that verse goes beyond Abraham, but takes it down to Jacob and Judah...the tribe name of which the word Jew comes from. Isaiah confirmed it. Let the Jews have the land God promised them.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, the Jews suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

Jewish Facts VS Myths Online

NoturTypical, once again you are awesome as you generally are awesome. I am glad to see your post because it is accurate and flies in the face of what people want to assume. Good work.

reply to post by jmdewey60

"The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess" (Jeremiah 30:3)

Israel and Judah...interesting, another prophet of the Most High God makes a distinction as to who the Jews are and what is their right.

Judah, the tribe from which we get the word....Jew.

The Jewish ethnonym in Hebrew is יהודים Yehudim (plural of יהודי Yehudi) which is the origin of the English word Jew. The Hebrew name is derived from the region name Judah (Yehudah יהודה). Originally the name referred to the territory allotted to the tribe descended from Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob (Numbers). Judah was one of the twelve sons of Jacob and one of the Twelve tribes of Israel (Genesis). The Genesis 29:35 [1] relates that Judah's mother — the matriarch Leah — named him Yehudah (i.e. "Judah") because she wanted to "praise God" for giving birth to so many sons: "She said, 'This time let me praise (odeh אודה) God (יהוה),' and named the child Judah (Yehudah יהודה)", thus combining "praise" and "God" into one new name. Thereafter Judah vouchsafes the Jewish monarchy, and the Israelite kings David and Solomon derive their lineage from Judah. In Hebrew, the name "Judah" (י ה ו [ד] ה) contains the four letters of the Tetragrammaton — the special, holy, and ineffable name of the Jewish God. The very holiness of the name of Judah attests to its importance as an alternate name for "Israelites" that it ultimately replaces. In Jeremiah 34:9 we find the earliest reference of the word Yehudi, "Jew" being used, though the plural, Yehudim, debuts in 2 Kings 16:6 [2], and in 2 Chronicles 32:18. The name appears in the Bible in a verb form, in Esther 8:17 [3] which states, "Many of the people of the land mityahadim (became Yehudim/Judeans/Jews) because the fear of the Yehudim fell on them." Also in Esther 2:5-6, we find that the name "Jew" is given to a man from the tribe of Benjamin:[4] "There was a man a Yehudi (Judean/Jewish man) in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite; who had been exiled from Jerusalem with the exile that was exiled with Jeconiah, king of Judah, which Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had exiled."