Americans not immune if they act against U.S: CIA

There is NO incident, there is NO reason grave enough,

For WE the People to lay aside our Constitution.

NONE !

If a person is an American Citizen, and we have probable cause that this citizen has committed a crime, we have a tried and true method of handling the issue, Due Process !

I, for one American Citizen will NEVER set aside our Constitution for ANY reason.

PERIOD !

Here's the scary part. At what point have you been declared a criminal? Do you know your a suspect?

When did they decide to follow and track you?

Everyone get's that "antsy" feeling when driving down the street and seeing a cop car in your rearview mirror, even though your not doing anything wrong. At least you can see the uniformed cop and vehicle.

We have Janet head of Homeland and TSA putting up signs in WalMarts telling everyone to "watch" each other for suspicious behavior?

How do we "profile" suspicious behavior? Is that legal? Profiling our neighbors that look poor? Or Foriegn?

Or wealthy with new camping gear? OH, "jumpy" I get it.

How many of our neigbors are really CIA operatives watching us? They don't wear a name tag that says CIA.

Where's this govenment created paranoia going to end?

Here's the scary part. At what point have you been declared a criminal? Do you know your a suspect?

When did they decide to follow and track you?

Everyone get's that "antsy" feeling when driving down the street and seeing a cop car in your rearview mirror, even though your not doing anything wrong. At least you can see the uniformed cop and vehicle.

We have Janet head of Homeland and TSA putting up signs in WalMarts telling everyone to "watch" each other for suspicious behavior?

How do we "profile" suspicious behavior? Is that legal? Profiling our neighbors that look poor? Or Foriegn?

Or wealthy with new camping gear? OH, "jumpy" I get it.

How many of our neigbors are really CIA operatives watching us? They don't wear a name tag that says CIA.

Where's this govenment created paranoia going to end?

reply to post by brokedown
thank you for stating the truth so elegantly and so precise, not amny can do that and so well.

reply to post by brokedown
nor should we let them that make the laws like this get away with it, due process and Innocent before proven guilty is what is meant, and should be the law no ton here say or suspicions. If your in the act or solid proof the you have intentions to do harm to US or the Citizens there of the your fair game, this is war but we still have rules and laws that govern how we fight and treat POWs.

what about police forces/swat teams that have ALREADY taken up arms against america?




Can we expect some real prosecutions of real criminals due to this, or when they say "The United States" are they just talking about the people who pay/allow for all their equipment/legal fees?

Well...Yeah, of course.

If anyone picks up arms against the US government they will do what they have to do, to make sure you are no longer a threat.

That is common sense. However, you may find sollice in knowing that through out history, when the government turns on it's people, the military sides with the people. Why? Because the people are made up of their mom's, dad's brothers and sisters.....

When President Lincoln got Russia's entire Atlantic and Pacific Naval fleets to port in Union Ports.......

That ENDED the United States of America you all think you live in. The US Civil Flag was taken down and our current US Military Flag with gold fringes now flies.

The powers at be have been killing Americans ever since.

Won't stop until you get the US Civil Flag to fly over America again. Those northern States would get another foreign power to fight you to keep you from flying that flag.


Remember.....George Washington amassed more troops to fight and kill Americans than he ever did to fight the British.

Well, this isn't really anything new, considering the fact that if you openly took up arms against the US, even years ago, you would be treated like the enemy...Probably because you are the enemy in their eyes, as you pose a threat to the current "rule."

I can understand where the government is coming from on this one, although I do not support the police being ordered to do what they have been doing to peaceful protesters, which are sort-of against the US in a way, at least in the eyes of the government, and that is a scary view to behold.

If they will pepper spray people, as well as try to run them over with cars, as well as a plethora of other things we have seen them do, just for peaceful protesting, they must be trying to send a strong message because they know things could get worse and possibly more violent.

Originally posted by brokedown
reply to post by mobiusmale

 

You don’t know any of the charges against him, all you are doing is regurgitating what the MSM has told you.

No matter what

NO MATER WHAT

An American Citizen is due their day in Court.

NO MATTER WHAT !

First of all, my sources are better than your sources...all you are doing is regurgitating conspiracy "theories" that suggest that all information that comes from places other than conspiracy websites are inaccurate, misleading, or sinister in their intent. The man was an Al Qaeda leader...by his own admission, in his many statements, videos and website posts (and email exchanges).

Second, while I applaud your passion and the rightful insistence that U.S. citizens must be afforded all of the rights due to them under the Constitution...you are just plain wrong about this. Being an American citizen does not act as a shield against deadly actions taken in a time of war.

No "due process" is required when dealing with an enemy combattant - American or not.

The confusion associated with the legality of the recent killing of Anwar al-Awlaqi, al-Qaeda cleric and leader, by CIA drone strike in Yemen reflects very poorly on the US government. It is not because the killing was illegal as some have alleged, it is precisely the opposite. The killing was perfectly legal...

The justification for the lawful use of force against al-Awlaqi is as follows: (1) the US is at war with al-Qaeda under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force; (2) the law of war applies to the war, not domestic criminal law; (3) the law of war allows the US to kill any enemy combatant on sight, detain an enemy combatant indefinitely or use military commissions when appropriate.

In the case of Anwar al-Awlaqi, if he was a member of al-Qaeda, which he was, then he qualifies for treatment under the full parameters of the law of war. Thus, it is not a violation of the law of war for the US to kill an al-Qaeda member without warning, even if he is also a US citizen.

jurist.org...

The author of the above, by the way is Jeffrey Addicott, Professor of Law and the director of the Center for Terrorism Law, at St. Mary's University School of Law.

So...sorry to rain on your rant - but the killing was perfectly legal - domestic criminal law does not apply.

reply to post by brokedown


Sir Brokedown, there is no arguement here. We are all fully aware of your solid hold on The Constitution
of The United States of America. Your outrage in this matter and adherence to justice is noted and understood.
Even The Nazis had their Neuremburg Trials.

Unless I am mistaken however, The Nazis did respect the International Concept of Surrender.
As history sheds light, for the most part, Treaties were signed,divisions of territories were drawn,
implemented, and agreed upon . Like it or not, it was a gentlemans agreement.

What we are dealing with here in certain cases, are those who (for lack of a better term) are Kamakazis.(sp?)
Who have no allegiance to any law except their Religious Law.
The fact that they are U.S. Citizens is an Ace in the Hole for them.
They do not give a rats ass about you or any other Infidel.
They would kill you without recourse as sure as the sun sets.

Do they deserve trial, I believe UNFORTUNATELY they do.
However, The United States is currently at War.
So if you were The General, and you were sending sons and daughters into say, Yemen,
in search of an American Citizen who was not only preaching violence, but also training individuals
in weapons handling, as well as researching biological weapons ,their developement and dispersal.
What would you do?
A few points to consider: 1 . If a traitor is secretly abducted, their fellow accomplices are disrupted.
2. The actions/reactions of the fellow accomplices can be studied for further intel.
3. The traitor can be interrogated in a vacuum.
4. The subject could be released with fair compensation if the case is in error.
5. I would expect that there would be an internal review board involved.
Just out of respect for your opinion, please enlighten me as to what your methods of resolve would be.

I will check back on this Thread as soon as I can. Sincerely, Wildmanimal

The United States is NOT at War at this time.

Our Military actions around the Globe are no more than imperialistic expansion of the New American Century via the Trilateral Commission.

What is done when an American living in a foreign land is under suspicion of crimes against the State ?

NOTHING.
Who cares. He isn’t here.

Now, if this factitious American citizen re-enters the Nation he could be arrested, charged, and prosecuted in open court.

Our system of justice is NOT about the person who we believe is a threat or has committed a crime,

Our system is about

Who WE Are as a People.

I don’t fall for the fear tactic that has been unleashed on our citizens.

I refuse to trade Liberty for security.

I refuse to watch our Nation fall victim to those who want to remove Constitutional Protections from any one of our Citizens, WHY

Because if we allow it once, it just gets easier to do the next time.

We cannot allow our Government to start down this slippery slope of removing our Liberty.

You see how far it has gone today.

The Congress has declared the American soil a battleground and each of us are now a potential terrorist, who can be arrested by the Gestapo and held for life without any due process.

Is this the land of the free and home of the BRAVE.

I don’t think so.

Originally posted by bekod
yes this is for real if your a US citizen and pick up arms against the US you are now fair game

"Now" fair game? This has been demonstrably true since George Washington put down the Whiskey Rebellion.

There is still due process yea I know some of you say well not if your fighting for the enemy , does this mean that your not protected by the Law when the Law says you are ? S1867 overturns the law

What law says you are protected? Protected from what? Where? When? What law does S. 1867 overturn?

Originally posted by mobiusmale
No "due process" is required when dealing with an enemy combattant - American or not.

I would dispute that. But I would also look closely at what due process really is. Due simply means owed or appropriate for some purpose. Due process doesn't mean everyone gets the same process, it means they get the appropriate process for their situation. Due process for a garden variety criminal involves warrants, Miranda rights, a jury trial, etc. Due process for an enemy combatant is careful target selection and obeying the laws of war. Awlaki had all the process that was appropriate for a leader of an armed enemy group, so we may say he received due process.

Originally posted by Pervius
That ENDED the United States of America you all think you live in. The US Civil Flag was taken down and our current US Military Flag with gold fringes now flies.

There never was a "civil flag," and there is no "military flag," with or without gold fringes. The flag of the United States of America is thirteen horizontal stripes with a blue union and a number of stars equal to the number of states. It has been since the Act of April 4, 1818. The gold fringe, if it is present, is merely decorative.

The "civil flag" usually bandied about is a version of the Coast Guard ensign. The Coast Guard, by the way, is military.

Originally posted by FurvusRexCaeli

Originally posted by mobiusmale
No "due process" is required when dealing with an enemy combattant - American or not.

I would dispute that. But I would also look closely at what due process really is. Due simply means owed or appropriate for some purpose. Due process doesn't mean everyone gets the same process, it means they get the appropriate process for their situation. Due process for a garden variety criminal involves warrants, Miranda rights, a jury trial, etc. Due process for an enemy combatant is careful target selection and obeying the laws of war. Awlaki had all the process that was appropriate for a leader of an armed enemy group, so we may say he received due process.

Yes, in this respect you are absolutely correct.

As an enemy combatant, his due process amounted to sighting him, identifying him as a combatant and eliminating him. Process finished.

Originally posted by brokedown
The United States is NOT at War at this time.

Interesting...so just what exactly is going on in Afghanistan at this time...and in the other theatres where we are battling Al Qaeda and other declared terrorist organizations? I am not asking if you agree with the war (which would be rhetorical), but am asking how you characterize the combat going on.

Our Military actions around the Globe are no more than imperialistic expansion of the New American Century via the Trilateral Commission.

Be that as it may (whatever that means exactly), and not that I agree that the current conflicts are part of an "imperialistic expansion", but if it were an imperialistic expansion via force of arms...would that not make it a war?

What is done when an American living in a foreign land is under suspicion of crimes against the State ?

NOTHING.
Who cares. He isn’t here.

American citizens (and non-Americans) are frequently indicted for crimes while they are abroad...so, um, wrong again.

Our system of justice is NOT about the person who we believe is a threat or has committed a crime,

Our system is about

Who WE Are as a People.

errr...what?

I don’t fall for the fear tactic that has been unleashed on our citizens.

I refuse to trade Liberty for security.

I refuse to watch our Nation fall victim to those who want to remove Constitutional Protections from any one of our Citizens, WHY

But...in the case that you are ranting on about, his Constitutional Protections were not violated...any more than (in a slightly different context) when Police gun down a citizen while he is in the commission of a violent crime.

You see how far it has gone today.

The Congress has declared the American soil a battleground and each of us are now a potential terrorist, who can be arrested by the Gestapo and held for life without any due process.

Is this the land of the free and home of the BRAVE.

I don’t think so.

I think that there are many examples of how America has become less than the "land of the free"...but in this instance I think you are really barking up the wrong tree.

There is no way that America can stand idly by and let people (citizens or not) plot, and carry out, violent attacks against its innocent citizens. In a time of war, which this is, the American Government is not only entitled - but it is obligated to find and kill enemy combatants wherever they may be.

If the hosting nation will cooperate, and captures the combatant so that he can be returned to American soil for trial, then so be it. If not, then he can be taken down under the laws of war...wherever he stands (or is riding in a convoy as the case may be).

Originally posted by Wildmanimal
However, The United States is currently at War.

You are using "war" with a capital "W" in an attempt to validate what is really an ongoing Executive branch escapade into the Greater Middle East. Even sanctioned and funded by Congress doesn't make it a capital "W" war. Sorry that seems to confuse a lot of people who are misled by the media corporate complex.

I'd like to see the Declaration of War that was voted on by Congress so please post a link. Otherwise, please refrain from the propaganda and the erroneous interpretations of the US Constitution. Thanks!

Well thats ok IMO, because the current government have no right to call themselves the USA. They are the UN.

Originally posted by brokedown
reply to post by mobiusmale

 

You don’t know any of the charges against him, all you are doing is regurgitating what the MSM has told you.

No matter what

NO MATER WHAT

An American Citizen is due their day in Court.

NO MATTER WHAT !

Absolutely. And here we quote the 6th for those who will deny their own ignorance..

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Any judges or prosecutors out there who would twist & distort the 6th are operating outside of their mandate.