The ugly truth about Native American "shamans," "wisdom keepers" and "spiritual teachers"

reply to post by Frankenchrist

I know some real Cherokees and it does suck for them. When they try to tell people what tribe they are no one believes them. So many people with with a blood quantum reaching into the 1,000's or the 100,000's claim to be native and most claim to be Cherokee. For the 1000's that means 1 ancestor out of 1000 in your family tree could be considered a full blooded native american.

I am from one of the lake superior band of Ojibwe. There are many great lakes Ojibwe tribes. Our leaders in the past had the foresight to debate on how much ojibwe can a person be and still be Ojibwe. They determined along with advice from the elders that 1/4 could still be considered Ojibwe. They then stipulated in the treaties that blood quantums would not be lost when the great lakes band of Ojibwe from the different reservations had children with one another. They would be combined on whichever tribal roll of either the fathers or mothers birth reservation but not both. The reason I know this is because my mother and father are from different reservations. This is the only reason the Ojibwe have been one of the few native populations to survive East of the Mississippi.

We know the main cause of our intermarrying with non natives. It was beat into the children that being native american meant being sub human by the church who operated these re education centers to civilize the red man which was in actuality bureau of indian affair concentration camp boarding schools. So these broken emotionally scarred children grew up and married non natives so their children would never have to go through that. Some of them did the opposite. They fiercely held onto our beliefs and began relearning them when they were released from captivity. They are the reason I'm who I am today.

The horrible stories that come out of those schools are very graphic. One school had a priest who was caught having sex with young native girls, getting them pregnant and making them have abortions. The fetuses were then put into a basement wall along with many other fetuses. He had help from several nuns in his evil deeds. This man was never punished, only moved somewhere else by the church. Children were frequently beat so badly they died from their injuries. These were chalked up as suicides and illness on their records. My tribe keeps one of these schools intact as a reminder so we will never forget what was done to us and what the government is capable of. I know of many first hand accounts from the elders still alive here of what went on in these schools.

This is why I defend what little we have left. If the world really knew what was done to us you would be shocked. There is a lot of history being suppressed by the government of what really went on.

Originally posted by Comet2
Regarding the Kiesha Crowther ordeal

Mentioning points will get you censored, Asking questions will get you ousted.

In all likelihood, she *is* a fraud. Like I said, any white individual who calls themselves a shaman, is clueless at best, and a fraud at worst. If you're white, you can get away with calling yourself a magician, although even there, there are people online (middle aged Pagans with ego problems, for the most part) who will enthusiastically lob rhetorical fecal matter in your direction, if they do not feel that you are qualified to their standards.

The best form of self-identification for a white individual who wants to study magick, is simply either a hippie, or someone who takes drugs. The good thing about being known as a junkie, is that nobody will ever bother hurling insults in your direction *out loud;* they will simply internally think of you as vermin for a few moments, and then forget about you completely.

Titles in general are for narcissists, or for immoral individuals who want to impress and manipulate the gullible out of their money.

i personally believe a shaman is someone who is willing to sacrifice themselves in some way to help you learn a lesson. i also believe that a shaman is someone aware enough of psychology, how they relate to it i dont know, but someone who can help break the cycles of others thought patterns to help enable them to a better life. i also believe a shaman can be a spiritual teacher by helping guide you through journeys and deciphering the symbology of those journeys and even your dreams.

the thing is they cant tell us what our shamans are for our communities because they dont function the same as theirs. for them to saw what you have said they have said only proves their spiritual lack of understanding and fundamental lack of knowledge of true shamanism which is a personal path one is chosen to follow. what that path entails and how they interpret it is not the choice of anyone, including native american shamans.


there are some of us very well versed on this subject and very willing to debate and talk about it.

reply to post by petrus4

In all likelihood, she *is* a fraud. Like I said, any white individual who calls themselves a shaman, is clueless at best, and a fraud at worst.

You are clueless at best.

The best form of self-identification for a white individual who wants to study magick, is simply either a hippie, or someone who takes drugs.

once again, at best you are clueless. you think shamanism is about drugs? the drugs used by certain shamans such as ayahuasca shamans are tools used to interact with the subconscious mind by enabling the user an easier alternative to changing their thought patterns. id you dont understand how the brain works read a book. if you dont know what is really happening under the influence of things scientifically such as ayahuasca, then learn about it before assuming you know anything about what is going on.



this may all look like crap but i am tired from a hard days work and you don't have the knowledge of shamanism and i suggest you learn.

Originally posted by onequestion
i personally believe a shaman is someone who is willing to sacrifice themselves in some way to help you learn a lesson.

Admittedly, when most people think of shamans, Mr. J isn't the immediate figure who comes to mind. I felt, however, that within The Dark Knight, he was extremely single-minded in the message he attempted to convey; and that was, that no matter what a person's own moral persuasion was, the most important thing was that they consciously knew the reasoning behind said moral position, and acted from said position on a genuine, legitimate basis.

Some of my own work has involved him. You might actually be surprised how effective he can be as a therapist.

the thing is they cant tell us what our shamans are for our communities because they dont function the same as theirs.

They might not be able to, but that won't stop them from giving it the proverbial old college try.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
"There's one re-born every minute"

Actually I was surprised to read that Carlos Castaneda was considered a fraud.

I have read all of the teachings of Don Juan, as well as other teachers of the Toltec. I do not consider any of Carlos Castaneda's writings to be fraudulent. Of course, they are mystical and fantastic but that is what I would expect. I have read the website where this man goes in an extreme amount of detail to point out that Carlos Castaneda is a fraud, sexual predator, and evil being, but doesn't actually put forth any real evidence other than word-of-mouth. I think the problem a lot of people have with spiritual teachers is the fact that they make money. I hear some say "Oh, well if he was so spiritual and One with God, then he wouldn't need all that money!" As if they do not need to survive in this physical world as well? If anything, I am glad they have that money because it means that they have resources to help get their message across to more people, and more easier.

Regardless of Carlos Castaneda actually being a fraud or not, I still find his writing to be wholly insightful and I have had experiences, both in the real world and in dreaming, that have lived up to the claims he has made. In addition, it has changed my way of thinking for the better (at least, in my opinion).

I commend you for speaking from the heart. If it works for you, it's real as it needs to be.

reply to post by sylvie

I was absolutely devastated after reading that. I tried one more time (only for one day) to go to the Elders Gatherings, but I just couldn't stay there anymore. Watching those people nearly worshiping Dhyani and calling her "venerable" almost make me puke. I even contemplated to expose her right then and there, but I figured that usually people don't appreciate being robbed of their happy self-delusions. I probably would have been chased out of the village with torches and pitchforks.

You just perfectly described my dissolution with just about any religion, particularly Christianity, or what I like to call Churchianity. Religulous.

Waking up is a bitc*, ain't it?

All real teachers will teach that the key to wisdom is to find that same source of wisdom that they have found within yourself. In other words their ultimate goal is to make you less dependent upon them and more on your own inner strength. They free you from "yourself" and them. It's kinda like rearing a baby bird and then one day letting it fly free instead of keeping it in a cage forever.

That should always be used as an early indicator of their credibility. Do their "followers" remain dependent upon their teachings and "meetings", or slowly detach and one day become teachers themselves?

Sorry about the wordiness, I am half asleep and trying to put into words what is not about words at all.
Another teacher put it this way:

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.
And, blessed are those who have been taught from within and not by men.

reply to post by Rezwar

This is why I defend what little we have left. If the world really knew what was done to us you would be shocked. There is a lot of history being suppressed by the government of what really went on.

Being white and an "American", I am so sorry for what my founding fathers have wrought when they occupied this nation and stole it from the original peoples by lies, murder and genocide. And then indoctrinating the children to "our way of life". What a sad travesty that epoch leaves on history.

I have learned of some of the things that were done to children in these "Bureau" schools. For instance, If a child refused to forswear their native language, one tactic employed was to pierce their tongue with a needle. They even did that to Hawaiian children during the subjugation of that Island nation as well. Shudder...

She is a spiritual teacher at heart. Just because someone wants money doesn't make them any less spiritual. If they are teaching people about unconditional love then they are true to their inner spiritual nature...

Originally posted by intrptr
All real teachers will teach that the key to wisdom is to find that same source of wisdom that they have found within yourself. In other words their ultimate goal is to make you less dependent upon them and more on your own inner strength. They free you from "yourself" and them. It's kinda like rearing a baby bird and then one day letting it fly free instead of keeping it in a cage forever.

Right on the money, friend.

Originally posted by onequestion
once again, at best you are clueless.

The elitism is strong in this one.

I mention drugs; then you say it isn't about drugs, and then you launch into a cursory explanation (in amongst repeated admonitions of my ignorance) of how said drugs work. So which is it, exactly?

As far as claiming to know anything is concerned, you've also proven my point...that whether or not anyone DOES know anything, claiming anything at all where shamanism is concerned is problematic. The reason why, is because no matter what you claim, or who you are, you're always going to get some narcissistic blowhard (whether white or otherwise) telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about, because it fuels their own ego to have an Elder complex.

The title in this thread should have Native American in quotations as well. "They deliver a great message though!" Yes, perhaps but it's all about the intent and their intent is to manipulate and make money which totally defeats the "good" word they're preaching.

Some of the money these people charge for conferences and personal readings and what not are just ridiculous. I can't even expect to make as much as they do with a freckin college degree. Buddha and Jesus never charged for their teachings. They lived in as much as a physical world as we did and they never worried about whether or not they would be fed or clothed. And I said Jesus, not the church.

I always thought something was up with this chick. I'm not opposed to some of her assertions, only to her claiming to be a 'shaman' for a tribe that obviously have nothing to do with her. She seems to me to be a perfect embodiment of someone who corruptly uses learned knowledge for financial and social gain, absolute shame on her, how awful and disrespectful.

She doesn't seem to have that wart in earlier videos also, maybe she thinks it makes her more spiritual.....ha

I AM a Native American and you are wrong. Your facts are incomplete and incorrect. Some tribes do refer to their healers as Shaman. I met the shaman of my tribe when I was a teen many years ago. For those reading this thread be very cautious of people who claim to know all the answers... also be weary of their motives.

What I appreciate about yhe native americans is their understanding of the natural order and harmony of all things. Once every person realizes their souls are made of the same substance they can see similarity between everyone.

Kiesha is not the problem here but those who are making an effort to keep important information out of sight..it's unbelievable and not worth addressing if they're unwilling to reflect on their owns actions

a reply to: sylvie

I think we'll forever be cursed with plastic medicine men. Yes, I said cursed. Oh, how I despise their wannabe ways.