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Obama: Limited Gov't That Preserves Free Markets 'Doesn't Work. It Has Never Worked

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posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by dadgad
 


Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.

This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiot
edit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum




posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Obama is absolutely right. Small government and unregulated big business leads to corruption, infrastructure break-down, and a massive under-class, leading to poverty, crime, and all the other problems this spews up - and all of this mess effects all society in the end. The US is the perfect example of that.

Obama is no fool. He's looked around the Western world to see how other governments are doing it - and wondered why they are so much more efficient and crime/poverty free than the US. Now he wants to do what should've been done in the US decades ago. Simple.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by masterp
The real problem of America is not Obama, it is not the big government, it is not spending, it is not corporations, it is not lobbying, it is not even banks.

The real problem of America is GLOBALISATION.

To cut the long story sort, USA has all these problems because American products are no longer made by American hands.

There is a huge wealth leak from America to the outside world, as we speak.

Money does not flow to American families. That is the real issue.


Well said!! S&F for you.

You are absolutely correct of course. Corporate America and Corporate Europe have decided it's far cheaper and more profitable to make their products with cheap and nasty Chinese labor. And people wonder why the Chinese Government is becoming so wealthy and powerful? Western greed - plain and simple.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
 


Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.

This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiot
edit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum


Certainly it is unjust, I wholly agree on that. The thing that bothers me is that we (left) don't seem to have any realistic alternative. This is a strange time we live in.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by macman
 





That will never happen. Everyone can be deemed equal in the eyes of the Law, but everyone will have different outcomes. Those outcomes are not the fault of anyone else except the person.


Outcomes in this society are rarely from hard work but rather luck, class, or socio-economic factors.
The outcomes we see today are the result of an unjust economic system.




Yes they do, come now. Equality does not equal outcome.


No, that is a libertarian myth. Economic and social circumstances vary considerably; people do not have equal opportunities.




So don't work. In fact, many people don't work. They get a check from the Govt twice a month. Still your choice. Sounds like you have not found the place to work for yet.


Sure, there may be some who live solely on welfare but they are a minority.
Do you really have to bash welfare recipients? You don't think they suffer enough?
Perhaps you want to leave them to the mercy of private charities?



Not hard work??
Oh come on.
I am where I am today from Hard Work. Hard work breeds luck.
No, just as the many of people that grew up in the slums of what ever city you choose, shows that it is only limited by the person.

And yes, people do to have equal opportunities. Again, see the above.

And who is bashing welfare people?
Never belittled them.
And yes, since the Govt has to take from me to give to them, yes, Private charities where the actual amount of money to the end user is a greater percentage then what the Govt can provide.
I do not work to provide for others. I work to provide for me.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by dadgad

Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by macman
 





That will never happen. Everyone can be deemed equal in the eyes of the Law, but everyone will have different outcomes. Those outcomes are not the fault of anyone else except the person.


Outcomes in this society are rarely from hard work but rather luck, class, or socio-economic factors.
The outcomes we see today are the result of an unjust economic system.




Yes they do, come now. Equality does not equal outcome.


No, that is a libertarian myth. Economic and social circumstances vary considerably; people do not have equal opportunities.




So don't work. In fact, many people don't work. They get a check from the Govt twice a month. Still your choice. Sounds like you have not found the place to work for yet.


Sure, there may be some who live solely on welfare but they are a minority.
Do you really have to bash welfare recipients? You don't think they suffer enough?
Perhaps you want to leave them to the mercy of private charities?



While I basically agree with you I think you should admit that brilliance counts in this system. Lets admit that, brilliant people often become successful. Very often they don't, but many do. It allows for that.



Brilliant people make a computer in their garage.
Brilliant people do also know how to work hard, make good choices and continue to advance themselves.

Brilliance comes in many forms. Gotta look outside of the box.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
 


I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?

Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!


My age is really not up for discussion, as I don't know you nor do I post my life story on the internet.
But you go right ahead.

And again, you are clueless as usual.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by dadgad

Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
 


Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.

This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiot
edit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum


Certainly it is unjust, I wholly agree on that. The thing that bothers me is that we (left) don't seem to have any realistic alternative. This is a strange time we live in.


Market Socialism is a good alternative, yet people don't know what socialism is because they constantly equate it to communism. Just think of socialism as something between capitalism and communism, which means somethings are privately owned while others are publicly owned.

In capitaiism everything is private. Under communism everything is public.

Not that hard to do the math, if the PTB were not so grotesquely interested in misinformaton spreading!



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by macman

Not hard work??
Oh come on.
I am where I am today from Hard Work. Hard work breeds luck.
No, just as the many of people that grew up in the slums of what ever city you choose, shows that it is only limited by the person.

And yes, people do to have equal opportunities. Again, see the above.

And who is bashing welfare people?
Never belittled them.
And yes, since the Govt has to take from me to give to them, yes, Private charities where the actual amount of money to the end user is a greater percentage then what the Govt can provide.
I do not work to provide for others. I work to provide for me.


You and I may agree on some things, but you are still a conservative and I am still a knowledgeable progressive.

We have established that he government is corrupt(or evil) but still a system that cheats is better than no system. Some people are born retarded while others suffer work related accidents and NEED welfare. To say I work to provide for me is pretty selfish sir, nevermind the fact that money that fails to recirculate STAYS at the top and everyone else fights for CRUMBS!

Hard work alone will not get you very far and it is not the governments fault either. It is human nature to conspire and compete. Some make it and others do not. The government makes an attempt(although poor) to balance things out.

We have no choice in accepting government so we might as well make it work FOR US and not against us!



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by dadgad

Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
 


Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.

This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiot
edit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum


Certainly it is unjust, I wholly agree on that. The thing that bothers me is that we (left) don't seem to have any realistic alternative. This is a strange time we live in.


Market Socialism is a good alternative, yet people don't know what socialism is because they constantly equate it to communism. Just think of socialism as something between capitalism and communism, which means somethings are privately owned while others are publicly owned.

In capitaiism everything is private. Under communism everything is public.

Not that hard to do the math, if the PTB were not so grotesquely interested in misinformaton spreading!

Sorry, but that is an option that I could not live with nor how America was founded and created on.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
 


I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?

Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!


My age is really not up for discussion, as I don't know you nor do I post my life story on the internet.
But you go right ahead.

And again, you are clueless as usual.


Well I have to agree with Theimmaculate that you do rather lack in social niceties, a rather rude/crude way of communicating. No one is out to destroy you, we're just discussing idea's and opinions you know.
edit on 14-12-2011 by dadgad because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

You and I may agree on some things, but you are still a conservative and I am still a knowledgeable progressive.

We have established that he government is corrupt(or evil) but still a system that cheats is better than no system. Some people are born retarded while others suffer work related accidents and NEED welfare.


The handicap and invalent are a given for assistance. Never said we should be tossing people out on the street that can't operate normally.



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
To say I work to provide for me is pretty selfish sir, nevermind the fact that money that fails to recirculate STAYS at the top and everyone else fights for CRUMBS!


Ok, so I am selfish. So what.
I don't work for others. You should not work to provide for me. If that is the case, then I get a say in how you run your life. The same goes for if you provide for me. You get a say.
That is the difference.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Hard work alone will not get you very far and it is not the governments fault either. It is human nature to conspire and compete. Some make it and others do not. The government makes an attempt(although poor) to balance things out.

Hard work will get you farther then you want to admit.
There are some awfully dumb people out there, that work harder then most that are successful.
But, just because someone does not have the smarts to do what I do, doesn't then mean they are afforded the things I get because it it not fair.
The Govt not only does a poor job at the attempted re-balancing, it encourages more corruption and use of the system.
I do more with my charity and donation then the Govt could do in a million years.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

We have no choice in accepting government so we might as well make it work FOR US and not against us!


But, that is looking out for "your" best interest and not fair, right?
Not really trying to be a smart ass, but it ends up that way.

edit on 14-12-2011 by macman because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


So you prefer everything remains private(with few exceptions) so you can reap the benefits of your hard work plus luck. I really hope for your own sake that you can afford that, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot without realising it.

Most people don't have that luxury. I don't know if it is the 80%, 90% or 99% but still the point stands.

BTW I am all for free markets and socialism. The two are not mutually exclusive at all! Socialism allows for a mixture of capitalist and communist ideas. In fact that is EXACTLY what it is!

Business exists to make money and with the current tax code enforcement policy I see no wealth redistribution. Just lots of interest payments to central banks and the rest goes to the military industrial complex to fight the terrorism america allowed/created in the first place.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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at least he admits government has never worked.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by dadgad

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
 


I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?

Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!


My age is really not up for discussion, as I don't know you nor do I post my life story on the internet.
But you go right ahead.

And again, you are clueless as usual.


Well I have to agree with Theimmaculate that you do rather lack in social niceties, a rather rude/crude way of communicating. No one is out to destroy you, we're just discussing idea's and opinions you know.
edit on 14-12-2011 by dadgad because: (no reason given)


Crude??? Rude??? Me????
Please, read what is under my screen name.


I am not here to play nice, nor win popularity points.

Still, my age is not an option. So, we move on.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


So you prefer everything remains private(with few exceptions) so you can reap the benefits of your hard work plus luck. I really hope for your own sake that you can afford that, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot without realising it.

In a nutshell, YES.
I have the basic skills needed to fix my foot.
But seriously, yes. Otherwise the Govt controls it, and we have already established that it is inherently evil.
At least with Private industry, given the little control of the Monopoly issue, I have a choice. Buy here, buy there.
Govt is do this, right now.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


Most people don't have that luxury. I don't know if it is the 80%, 90% or 99% but still the point stands.

Luxury of what exactly?


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


BTW I am all for free markets and socialism. The two are not mutually exclusive at all! Socialism allows for a mixture of capitalist and communist ideas. In fact that is EXACTLY what it is!


Me thinks this is the reason why our economy is in the miss we are in.



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


Business exists to make money and with the current tax code enforcement policy I see no wealth redistribution. Just lots of interest payments to central banks and the rest goes to the military industrial complex to fight the terrorism america allowed/created in the first place.

But, under the guise of this is that you tax those with to give to those without.
The fact that America is not really paying the money directly out to the programs, instead it pays interest on a loan that pays these programs shows that it is not sustainable in the first place.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


So you prefer everything remains private(with few exceptions) so you can reap the benefits of your hard work plus luck. I really hope for your own sake that you can afford that, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot without realising it.

In a nutshell, YES.
I have the basic skills needed to fix my foot.
But seriously, yes. Otherwise the Govt controls it, and we have already established that it is inherently evil.
At least with Private industry, given the little control of the Monopoly issue, I have a choice. Buy here, buy there.
Govt is do this, right now.


With everything including the american flag *made in china* I seriously doubt you will have much of a choice to make in terms of seeking employment and the demands they will allow you to make. As for buying american merchandise good luck with that given the continously smaller supply available and "outrageous" prices.

The west cannot compete with the east and only government could have done something about it. It is people like you who play the stock market and wish to double or triple your money fast that allow/encourage government to be so wrecfull. The government stooges are making a killing as well! It takes two to tango and everyone is crying big bad wolf...leave business alone BS!!!!!




Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


Most people don't have that luxury. I don't know if it is the 80%, 90% or 99% but still the point stands.

Luxury of what exactly?

The "luxury" of turning a blind eye to corruption/evilness. Government can work MORE for the people if it is allowed and encourage to do so. When my car breaks down, I call the tow truck and take it to a friendly garage for repairs. Knowing you, you would probably abandon it cause of the headaches and costs involved. Short sighted people make short sighted decisions that cost everyone in the long run.



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


BTW I am all for free markets and socialism. The two are not mutually exclusive at all! Socialism allows for a mixture of capitalist and communist ideas. In fact that is EXACTLY what it is!


Me thinks this is the reason why our economy is in the miss we are in.


Yeah socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. CIP, there is much more corporate welfare than social welfare. The FED doesn't even have to disclose anything. They just dictate and execute!



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
 


Business exists to make money and with the current tax code enforcement policy I see no wealth redistribution. Just lots of interest payments to central banks and the rest goes to the military industrial complex to fight the terrorism america allowed/created in the first place.


But, under the guise of this is that you tax those with to give to those without.
The fact that America is not really paying the money directly out to the programs, instead it pays interest on a loan that pays these programs shows that it is not sustainable in the first place.


I understand what you are saying but like I said a corrupt/broken system is much better than no system at all. Sooner or later things need to change and I think they will. In the meantime it pays to not be naked and work for that change.

Obama is trying but no one is giving him enough credit! And lets not forget what happened to JFK who pushed for actual democracy. I understand you hate democracy and prefer republicanism. Too bad, you are not my friend!



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

With everything including the american flag *made in china* I seriously doubt you will have much of a choice to make in terms of seeking employment and the demands they will allow you to make. As for buying american merchandise good luck with that given the continously smaller supply available and "outrageous" prices.

Yes, but why did the factories leave to go off shore?


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The west cannot compete with the east and only government could have done something about it. It is people like you who play the stock market and wish to double or triple your money fast that allow/encourage government to be so wrecfull. The government stooges are making a killing as well! It takes two to tango and everyone is crying big bad wolf...leave business alone BS!!!!!

Wrong, I don't play the stock market.
I don't gamble and know that fast is not always good, or profitable for that matter.
If someone wants to be a day trader, so be it. The issue comes to pass when they loose their shirt, and look to Govt to provide. Or, they make a killing and the Govt looks to collect.
Sad day that either way, the Govt has to have its hand in the cookie jar.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The "luxury" of turning a blind eye to corruption/evilness. Government can work MORE for the people if it is allowed and encourage to do so. When my car breaks down, I call the tow truck and take it to a friendly garage for repairs. Knowing you, you would probably abandon it cause of the headaches and costs involved. Short sighted people make short sighted decisions that cost everyone in the long run.

Nope. The redneck in me is to have it brought to my house, and I fix it myself.
I know it betters my position to not only save money by fixing it myself, I know have the experience in fixing what ever broke.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Yeah socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. CIP, there is much more corporate welfare than social welfare. The FED doesn't even have to disclose anything. They just dictate and execute!

I say Capitalism for all.
I don't agree with handouts to companies, nor people that can function and work.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
I understand what you are saying but like I said a corrupt/broken system is much better than no system at all. Sooner or later things need to change and I think they will. In the meantime it pays to not be naked and work for that change.

I am mixed on this.
Kind of like asking someone to either slit their throat or slit their wrist.



Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Obama is trying but no one is giving him enough credit! And lets not forget what happened to JFK who pushed for actual democracy. I understand you hate democracy and prefer republicanism. Too bad, you are not my friend!


Oh come on.
0bama is out for 0bama, plain and simple.
He is a doofus in Geniuses clothes.
I just want my freedoms back.
We can't be friends? What about tolerance and all that?



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by macman

Yes, but why did the factories leave to go off shore?


Really not obvious enough? Because the bankers, investors and speculators can make much more in developing economies then they can make in developed economies. The less something costs to produce the higher the profit margin per item and the more marketable each item becomes.

But they could not give a rats ass about "consumers are workers and workers are consumers". So if you make less then you ALSO spend less, which means a spiraling out of control unemployment problem. 100% short sightedness, to put it mild.

The solution was simple. Gradually incrase tariffs till exports and imports balance each other out. Instead tariffs became a dirty word for the globalistion focused capitalist gang. And some conservatives are hypocritical enough to criticise globalisation saying it is a liberal or progressive idea.



Oh come on.
0bama is out for 0bama, plain and simple.
He is a doofus in Geniuses clothes.
I just want my freedoms back.
We can't be friends? What about tolerance and all that?


Obviously I should not speak for you, but I will say that when corporations start having less freedoms, I will have more. I look forward for that day and it will come.



posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Increasing tariffs leads to isolationism and protectionism.
Not fruitful roads to travel.

And why did costs rise here for those companies that moved off shore?




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