It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by masterp
The real problem of America is not Obama, it is not the big government, it is not spending, it is not corporations, it is not lobbying, it is not even banks.
The real problem of America is GLOBALISATION.
To cut the long story sort, USA has all these problems because American products are no longer made by American hands.
There is a huge wealth leak from America to the outside world, as we speak.
Money does not flow to American families. That is the real issue.
Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.
This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:
If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiotedit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum
Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by macman
That will never happen. Everyone can be deemed equal in the eyes of the Law, but everyone will have different outcomes. Those outcomes are not the fault of anyone else except the person.
Outcomes in this society are rarely from hard work but rather luck, class, or socio-economic factors.
The outcomes we see today are the result of an unjust economic system.
Yes they do, come now. Equality does not equal outcome.
No, that is a libertarian myth. Economic and social circumstances vary considerably; people do not have equal opportunities.
So don't work. In fact, many people don't work. They get a check from the Govt twice a month. Still your choice. Sounds like you have not found the place to work for yet.
Sure, there may be some who live solely on welfare but they are a minority.
Do you really have to bash welfare recipients? You don't think they suffer enough?
Perhaps you want to leave them to the mercy of private charities?
Originally posted by dadgad
Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by macman
That will never happen. Everyone can be deemed equal in the eyes of the Law, but everyone will have different outcomes. Those outcomes are not the fault of anyone else except the person.
Outcomes in this society are rarely from hard work but rather luck, class, or socio-economic factors.
The outcomes we see today are the result of an unjust economic system.
Yes they do, come now. Equality does not equal outcome.
No, that is a libertarian myth. Economic and social circumstances vary considerably; people do not have equal opportunities.
So don't work. In fact, many people don't work. They get a check from the Govt twice a month. Still your choice. Sounds like you have not found the place to work for yet.
Sure, there may be some who live solely on welfare but they are a minority.
Do you really have to bash welfare recipients? You don't think they suffer enough?
Perhaps you want to leave them to the mercy of private charities?
While I basically agree with you I think you should admit that brilliance counts in this system. Lets admit that, brilliant people often become successful. Very often they don't, but many do. It allows for that.
Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?
Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!
Originally posted by dadgad
Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.
This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:
If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiotedit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum
Certainly it is unjust, I wholly agree on that. The thing that bothers me is that we (left) don't seem to have any realistic alternative. This is a strange time we live in.
Originally posted by macman
Not hard work??
Oh come on.
I am where I am today from Hard Work. Hard work breeds luck.
No, just as the many of people that grew up in the slums of what ever city you choose, shows that it is only limited by the person.
And yes, people do to have equal opportunities. Again, see the above.
And who is bashing welfare people?
Never belittled them.
And yes, since the Govt has to take from me to give to them, yes, Private charities where the actual amount of money to the end user is a greater percentage then what the Govt can provide.
I do not work to provide for others. I work to provide for me.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Originally posted by dadgad
Originally posted by lrak2
reply to post by dadgad
Sometimes, yes, but usually these people who accumulate such immense wealth do so through exploiting their workers or society in general.
The point I was trying to make was that much of their wealth has not been 'earned' by them.
Capitalism is profoundly unjust as seen by the wealth inequality today.
This quote summarizes an aspect of my point:
If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. - George Monbiotedit on 13-12-2011 by lrak2 because: addendum
Certainly it is unjust, I wholly agree on that. The thing that bothers me is that we (left) don't seem to have any realistic alternative. This is a strange time we live in.
Market Socialism is a good alternative, yet people don't know what socialism is because they constantly equate it to communism. Just think of socialism as something between capitalism and communism, which means somethings are privately owned while others are publicly owned.
In capitaiism everything is private. Under communism everything is public.
Not that hard to do the math, if the PTB were not so grotesquely interested in misinformaton spreading!
Originally posted by macman
Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?
Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!
My age is really not up for discussion, as I don't know you nor do I post my life story on the internet.
But you go right ahead.
And again, you are clueless as usual.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
You and I may agree on some things, but you are still a conservative and I am still a knowledgeable progressive.
We have established that he government is corrupt(or evil) but still a system that cheats is better than no system. Some people are born retarded while others suffer work related accidents and NEED welfare.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
To say I work to provide for me is pretty selfish sir, nevermind the fact that money that fails to recirculate STAYS at the top and everyone else fights for CRUMBS!
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hard work alone will not get you very far and it is not the governments fault either. It is human nature to conspire and compete. Some make it and others do not. The government makes an attempt(although poor) to balance things out.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
We have no choice in accepting government so we might as well make it work FOR US and not against us!
Originally posted by dadgad
Originally posted by macman
Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by macman
I''ll be 32 next month, how old are you?
Yes mud slinging, yes you are throwing a hissy fit because you can't win here as me and like 3 other people have your number here!
My age is really not up for discussion, as I don't know you nor do I post my life story on the internet.
But you go right ahead.
And again, you are clueless as usual.
Well I have to agree with Theimmaculate that you do rather lack in social niceties, a rather rude/crude way of communicating. No one is out to destroy you, we're just discussing idea's and opinions you know.edit on 14-12-2011 by dadgad because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
So you prefer everything remains private(with few exceptions) so you can reap the benefits of your hard work plus luck. I really hope for your own sake that you can afford that, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot without realising it.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
Most people don't have that luxury. I don't know if it is the 80%, 90% or 99% but still the point stands.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
BTW I am all for free markets and socialism. The two are not mutually exclusive at all! Socialism allows for a mixture of capitalist and communist ideas. In fact that is EXACTLY what it is!
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
Business exists to make money and with the current tax code enforcement policy I see no wealth redistribution. Just lots of interest payments to central banks and the rest goes to the military industrial complex to fight the terrorism america allowed/created in the first place.
Originally posted by macman
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
So you prefer everything remains private(with few exceptions) so you can reap the benefits of your hard work plus luck. I really hope for your own sake that you can afford that, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot without realising it.
In a nutshell, YES.
I have the basic skills needed to fix my foot.
But seriously, yes. Otherwise the Govt controls it, and we have already established that it is inherently evil.
At least with Private industry, given the little control of the Monopoly issue, I have a choice. Buy here, buy there.
Govt is do this, right now.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
Most people don't have that luxury. I don't know if it is the 80%, 90% or 99% but still the point stands.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
BTW I am all for free markets and socialism. The two are not mutually exclusive at all! Socialism allows for a mixture of capitalist and communist ideas. In fact that is EXACTLY what it is!
Me thinks this is the reason why our economy is in the miss we are in.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by macman
Business exists to make money and with the current tax code enforcement policy I see no wealth redistribution. Just lots of interest payments to central banks and the rest goes to the military industrial complex to fight the terrorism america allowed/created in the first place.
But, under the guise of this is that you tax those with to give to those without.
The fact that America is not really paying the money directly out to the programs, instead it pays interest on a loan that pays these programs shows that it is not sustainable in the first place.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
With everything including the american flag *made in china* I seriously doubt you will have much of a choice to make in terms of seeking employment and the demands they will allow you to make. As for buying american merchandise good luck with that given the continously smaller supply available and "outrageous" prices.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The west cannot compete with the east and only government could have done something about it. It is people like you who play the stock market and wish to double or triple your money fast that allow/encourage government to be so wrecfull. The government stooges are making a killing as well! It takes two to tango and everyone is crying big bad wolf...leave business alone BS!!!!!
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The "luxury" of turning a blind eye to corruption/evilness. Government can work MORE for the people if it is allowed and encourage to do so. When my car breaks down, I call the tow truck and take it to a friendly garage for repairs. Knowing you, you would probably abandon it cause of the headaches and costs involved. Short sighted people make short sighted decisions that cost everyone in the long run.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Yeah socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. CIP, there is much more corporate welfare than social welfare. The FED doesn't even have to disclose anything. They just dictate and execute!
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
I understand what you are saying but like I said a corrupt/broken system is much better than no system at all. Sooner or later things need to change and I think they will. In the meantime it pays to not be naked and work for that change.
Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Obama is trying but no one is giving him enough credit! And lets not forget what happened to JFK who pushed for actual democracy. I understand you hate democracy and prefer republicanism. Too bad, you are not my friend!
Originally posted by macman
Yes, but why did the factories leave to go off shore?
Oh come on.
0bama is out for 0bama, plain and simple.
He is a doofus in Geniuses clothes.
I just want my freedoms back.
We can't be friends? What about tolerance and all that?