The Miracle of Israel

Originally posted by 547000
You may be right, but I disagree with your interpretation. Even the apostles spoke of the end times, therefore prophesying, which supposedly ended with Jesus.

The ones which existed before John the Baptist met their completion in Jesus. That does not mean that his Apostles could not make prophecies.

reply to post by jmdewey60


That's one way of looking at it if you think all the prophecies in the OT have been fulfilled, but books like Isiah show this is a false interpretation.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

That's one way of looking at it if you think all the prophecies in the OT have been fulfilled, but books like Isiah show this is a false interpretation.

What I said (or attempted to) was that whatever prophecies had not been fulfilled have been reinterpreted in the light of the past events which were fulfilled.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Fine, I'll show one one verse as you asked:

Show me ONE.... just ONE verse in the bible which explicitly reads "Jews are Gods chosen people", and I promise I will leave this forum for good, and stand corrected all my life.

DEUTERONOMY 7:6
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath CHOSEN thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Now keep in mind, this is one of at least 200 more verses I can post, but this should give you a good starting point on worming and slithering around the scripture like a slimy snake. Enjoy!


The rest of the statement:
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Fine, I'll show one one verse as you asked:

Show me ONE.... just ONE verse in the bible which explicitly reads "Jews are Gods chosen people", and I promise I will leave this forum for good, and stand corrected all my life.

DEUTERONOMY 7:6
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath CHOSEN thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Now keep in mind, this is one of at least 200 more verses I can post, but this should give you a good starting point on worming and slithering around the scripture like a slimy snake. Enjoy!


The rest of the statement:
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I can't really argue with that. It is written.

Uh oh i said it. Someone will get on here and say something like "it was written by men not by God" blah blah blah. There's one in every thread that has anything to do with Jesus or God.

I know there's an atheist out there looking to troll...here's my bait attached to my pole. I'm a fisher of men, take the bait (i got a nice club here to hit you in the head with)

reply to post by KJV1611

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Fine, I'll show one one verse as you asked:

Show me ONE.... just ONE verse in the bible which explicitly reads "Jews are Gods chosen people", and I promise I will leave this forum for good, and stand corrected all my life.

DEUTERONOMY 7:6
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath CHOSEN thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Now keep in mind, this is one of at least 200 more verses I can post, but this should give you a good starting point on worming and slithering around the scripture like a slimy snake. Enjoy!

Actually you happen to be slithering around scripture by interpreting "Israelite" as Jews... when the two are not one and the same.

Israelites = descendants of Israel.
Jews = Followers of "judaism", (named after ONE of the sons of Israel, Judah.)

Remember, all that choosing happened before "Judah" after whom Judaism is named, was born.

So, my earlier challenge still stands... see if you can find me one verse that explicitly reads on the lines of "Jews are chosen", or "You jews are a holy people" etc
Key word = JEW

So dont just post another verse referring to Israelite and interpret it as meaning "jews".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Well done - you are correct! The failure to rightly divide the Word of God in this area creates a lot of confusion, even evil. However, it seems that no matter how often people are reminded of the distinction between Hebrew, Israelite, and Jew, it never seems to sink in. You know, a look at the history of the word "Jew" in the Oxford English Dictionary is very revealing.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

. . . a look at the history of the word "Jew" . . .

To find the source of the name, Jew, read the Book of Esther.
There were these people who were the deportees from the aristocracy of Judah, taken by the Babylonians, who remained in the Empire after it was overrun by the Persians. Once they became established in the Persian aristocracy, a lot of the other people converted to calling themselves Jews for financial benefits associated with this new favored class, at least in their eyes at that time. So the word, Jew, could be equated with, opportunist.

reply to post by KJV1611

The rest of the statement:

Conveniently leaving out the true context of the verse.
The first word of the verse is, for, or in the Greek Septuagint version, it could be translated as "that the cause of is".
This opening shows that what proceeds is the explanation of the cause of what came before this verse, which is a call for complete extermination of anyone who is, them, and not, us.
So anyone subscribing to the present validity, as in this commandment being carried forward into today, should understand that you are signing your own death warrant.
Modern, decent people recognize the barbarity of this concept and should reject it out of hand.
This is why there is a New Testament and why this saying is relegated to the Old Testament by Christians.
There is no current validity to this saying and is part of a myth saga about a supposed ideal history of a scattered people who once were members of an alliance of tribes who for a certain time maintained a bit of sovereignty up on a high hill country which seemed rather impregnable.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So I post one verse of hundreds, and I get three personal opinions as a reply? Something about an Israelite not being a Jew.....then something about a Greek Septuagint (what a funny stupid name), and wrong context accusations? You guys are braking your back's to get around the whole Jew issue

My Lord guys, you do know being an Israelite and being a Jew are the exact same thing right?

Here is where they are spoken of as one and the same:
JEREMIAH 34:9
That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess, go free; that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a JEW his brother.

Here is future Zionism where the JEWS rule the world:
ZECHARIAH 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a JEW, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Want some even more damning verses? Here Jesus Christ is shown to be a Jew without correcting her:
JOHN 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a JEW, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Try and refute. I have tons more ladies

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Once again to make you look the fool:

So, my earlier challenge still stands... see if you can find me one verse that explicitly reads on the lines of "Jews are chosen", or "You jews are a holy people" etc
Key word = JEW

So dont just post another verse referring to Israelite and interpret it as meaning "jews".

ZECHARIAH 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a JEW, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Start squirming

reply to post by KJV1611

ZECHARIAH 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a JEW, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Wow.

You are right. The bible does say something on those lines.... "God is with the JEW"...
While I may not agree that "Jew" in Zechariah 8:23 refers to the same modern "jew" who denies Jesus, I will admit.... you have won basis the conditions of my challenge.

So if the bible says that the pre-Jesus Jews during Zechariahs time were implied as being 'chosen", then so be it. Nothing more, nothing less.

That said, I will indeed quit this forum, because I do not want to be remembered as someone who does not keep his word....and I promise I will never return to ATS.

Parting words: Proverbs 24:17-18

Peace be upon you...and I hope you find your salvation through the jews...as you believe

reply to post by KJV1611

In Zechariah 8:23, the word ( in the Septuagint version) is ιουδαιου [IOUDAIOU] (that is Greek for anyone who does not recognize it). The definition is: Judæan, i.e. belonging to Jehudah.
You find the same word being used (starting with, according to the standard order of the Old Testament of the Christian Bible) in 2 Kings 16:6
(NETBible)
(At that time King Rezin of Syria recovered Elat for Syria; he drove the Judahites from there. Syrians arrived in Elat and live there to this very day.)

Same verse but in the NIV:
At that time, Rezin king of Aram recovered Elath for Aram by driving out the men of Judah. Edomites then moved into Elath and have lived there to this day.

The King James has it as "the Jews" which is obviously in error since the word "Jews" was not commonly used until the time of Christ.

reply to post by KJV1611

Once again to make you look the fool:

ZECHARIAH 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a JEW, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Start squirming

The fulfilment of this Old Testament oracle (not a proper prophecy but a word of encouragement), can be found in the New Testament of the Christian Bible, in
1 Corinthians 14:25

The secrets of his heart are disclosed, and in this way he will fall down with his face to the ground and worship God, declaring, “God is really among you."

When you look at the quoted verse in Zechariah, you may notice in the second half, the use two times of the preposition, with. In the Greek version, there are two different prepositions used nut they have to do with proximity (thus the term, pre-position). You can see another example of the play on prepositions in
Ephesians 2:17,18

And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

In this case, "the Jew" is Jesus, and the people grabbing ahold is the Greeks in
John 12:20,21

Now some Greeks were among those who had gone up to worship at the feast. So these approached Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and requested, “Sir, we would like to see Jesus.”

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

I can't really argue with that. It is written.

Uh oh i said it. Someone will get on here and say something like "it was written by men not by God" blah blah blah. There's one in every thread that has anything to do with Jesus or God.

Wellllll when you say ridiculous things, expect to be ridiculed. Some people on here actually care whether or not what they believe is true or not.

KJV1611 sez:
"My Lord guys, you do know being an Israelite and being a Jew are the exact same thing right?"

Laz replies:
To say that is to ignore all the "begats" in Genesis, and logic too. "Jew" is a subset of "Israelite," and "Israelite" is a subset of "Hebrew." I will leave aside for now my views on whether the people now commonly known as "Jews" are really of the tribe of Judah. Do you really think the eleven other tribes of Israelites just marched off into oblivion, leaving Judah to represent all of Israel? Get real. Lost does not mean non-existent. I have a good idea who and where some of these very tribes are today. God states in the Bible that He knows every detail of their dispersion and wanderings. Do you really think that one quote from one prophet overthrows all the history in the Book of Genesis? I think your Jew-worship has skewed your whole understanding of the Book you value so highly. We part ways here.

reply to post by KJV1611



Just a few more posts, to put things on record...

Referring to your quote of John 4:9 which identifies Jesus as a Jew. Yes, Jesus was a jew, meaning a Judean, I've never denied that, so I dont get to see why you used that particular verse.

Dont worry, I fully recognize now that there are indeed verses in the bible that establishes the "Jew" as being special to God. So I am starting to see the scriptural basis on which you have framed your views on Jews.

Does it mean that modern day Jews are indeed still "chosen" after their denial of Jesus? You decide for yourself.
Does it mean that the bible indeed contains a verse that establishes that the Jew has a special connect to God? Yes, I will admit.

However, my bowing out of ATS will not change a few facts that the bible itself makes it clear... Like I said earlier....

Israelites = descendants of Israel.
Jews = Followers of "judaism", (named after ONE of the sons of Israel, Judah.)

Remember, all that choosing happened before "Judah" after whom Judaism is named, was born.

Hmmmm, lots to answer here, thanks for the conversation guys.

First of all jm019231----- (or whatever your name is!) I am not greek, nor hebrew. So I use the english translation of God's words. We could go on and on about this but I don't want to get off topic. USE ENGLISH bud unless you are greek or hebrew. And don't you dare say you prefer the "originals" as opposed to the english. There are NO SUCH ORIGINALS today, so whatever lexicon, critical apparatus, or manuscript you use.....its a copy, of a copy, of a copy. All we have are copies. Abandon the greek bud, and take up the english, the King's English. Matter of fact, the Greek I use (Nestles-Aland) is on its 28th or so edition!

Laz-----We can differ on subjects, no biggie. And the "Jew subject" seems to be a big one for us. First off, I don't consider the tribe of Judea as being the sole owners of the demographic term "Jew". I hold to all tribes of Israel are collectively known as "Jews", OR "Hebrews", or "Jacob". When Go restores the "Jews" in their homeland of Israel (which includes ALL the middle east, not just the little land they now live in) after the tribulation, he restores a "remnant" from each tribe that the 144,000 Jewish male virgins preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to.

Scorpion------ Practicing Judaism does not make you a Jew. If that was the case half the foolish actors in Hollywood (Madonna etc.) would be Jews. They are not. Being Jewish is hereditary, not voluntary. In the Bible, converted Jews were known as "strangers", never Jews. There was always a distinction.

In conclusion: Jews today, regardless on whether you think they are "lost tribes", "British Israelis", Judea only", "Bankers", or whatever else people make up, they are all LOST and on their way to Hell. Jews, just like Gentiles still need Jesus Christ in order to be "chosen" for eternal life. Without Christ, it doesn't matter if you have a direct, unbroken bloodline from Adam, you will burn in Hell like the rest.

Although, after the tribulation, Jews will inherit the World, and will rule and reign from Jerusalem with their King, the Lord Jesus Christ. This is more sure to happen than the sun rising tomorrow morning. Don't take my word for it, take God's words for it.

reply to post by KJV1611

Scorpion------ Practicing Judaism does not make you a Jew. If that was the case half the foolish actors in Hollywood (Madonna etc.) would be Jews. They are not. Being Jewish is hereditary, not voluntary. In the Bible, converted Jews were known as "strangers", never Jews. There was always a distinction.

The only thing that is hereditary is bloodline.Not a religious belief.
Which is why even the muslim pashtuns call themselves "bani Israel" meaning "sons of Israel".... despite harboring a strong hatred for the jewish state of Israel.
Proof that one can be an Israelite and fanatically follow another religion, while being opposed to the modern definition of "jew".

BTW, Madonna is into some commercialized version of "Kabbalah"...she is not exactly practising judaism.

In conclusion: Jews today, regardless on whether you think they are "lost tribes", "British Israelis", Judea only", "Bankers", or whatever else people make up, they are all LOST and on their way to Hell. Jews, just like Gentiles still need Jesus Christ in order to be "chosen" for eternal life. Without Christ, it doesn't matter if you have a direct, unbroken bloodline from Adam, you will burn in Hell like the rest.

The jews have rejected Jesus for some 2000 years, and yet, you believe salvation through hinges on these jews?
Bizarre. I was always under the assumption that Christians were focussed on Jesus..... and at worst, Paul.

But now, I've encountered you who believes everybody will beg at the feet of Jews to save them. What happened to begging at the feet of Jesus????

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Gentiles will beg at the feet of Jews during the millenium....not right now in the church age. Didn't you read my post about Jews needing Christ "right now"? Heck you even quoted it and didn't seem to understand it.

Let me make this super, baby, first grade reading easy for you:

EVERYONE on the planet right now needs Jesus Christ in order to get to Heaven (the Gospel, death, burial, resurrection, grace through faith). After Christ returns in the second advent the Jews will rule this planet with Jesus Christ as their King (Jew) in Jerusalem. This is when gentiles will beg at the feet of Jews in order to enter Jerusalem to see Jesus in order to offer Him sacrfices AND GIFTS.

This is what the Holy Bible teaches. You should read it some time. It will happpen just as sure as you will die someday, this will happen.