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The Miracle of Israel

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posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 04:47 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


The designation, Jews, is something you can find in the book of Esther, which is a story set in a Persian palace after the fall of Babylon. According to the story, the Jews were all the people who had likewise been deported from their original homelands by the Babylonians and who had contact with the deportees from Judah, and decided to convert to Judaism, so they aren't necessarily descended from Abraham or ever even had ancestors who even lived in the Canaan region. This is where you get the white Caucasian Jews from Russia and Germany who migrated from the old Persian empire who had their ancestors converted by Persian Jews. These are the people who moved to Palestine before during and after WW II and created Israel and who discriminate against the non-Caucasian Jews who do have roots in the land that goes back to Judean ancestors. My point is that even if there were Jews who were the chosen people, they would not be the ones who are currently making that claim about themselves.




posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 





You, as someone who follows the path of judaism, think thats disgusting and idiotic? For what exactly?


Do you even read my posts??

Search every last one of them, and find anything remotely similar to the moronic hate speech of:




Jews will one day rule the planet...(and possibly other planet too)


I would NEVER word it that way, and I don't believe the Jews will ever "rule the world". It's an idiotic statement. A certain ideology and world outlook may emerge that is more Hebraic, and less Hellenistic, but that does not equal "Jews will one day rule the planet"...

This GUY is a blind religious fanatic. and only someone equally blind would have an issue making a distinction between me and him.

and then this:




Jews are God's chosen people and US gentiles will beg at the feet of the Jews for a chance to enter into the presence of Jesus Christ.




As for Jews right now in the present, they are lost sinners dropping into Hell every day.





posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 




We are all Greeks. Our laws, our literature, our religion, our arts, have their root in Greece.
Percy Bysshe Shelley


For a spiritual person, you do look at things in a very shallow manner when it suits your purposes....

A Greek is less someone from Greece, then it is someone who incarnates, and whose very being, is united with the spiritual principles Greece symbolizes. That's whats meant by a Greek, and by a Hellenist. His way of thinking, meaning, his very SOUL, is the product of the Hellenistic spirit. It's THOSE energies which work, and are active, at a unconscious level within his being.

LIKEWISE, a Jew, A Hebrew, is not merely someone with historical roots to ancient Judea, but on a much more fundamental level, a Jew is someone who finds himself completely at odds with the spirit of Hellas, and who identifies with the core metaphysics, and spiritual ethos, of the Hebrew bible. Someone like this has the spiritual energies of HEBRAISM working within his unconscious, challenging and fighting the dominant energies of the west - Greece.

THAT is how a spiritual minded person understands the distinction between Greek and Jew. YOU are a Greek. Myself, I lean much more to the Hebraic position.

I'd also make the stipulation that one has to undergo a Halachic conversion in order to become a "Jew"...whereas one who hasn't made such a conversion, but thinks along the Hebraic lines anyhow, could very well consider himself Hebraized. Or, in the words of the Greek: A "Judaizer" - something that was leveled against the Puritans by the liberal humanists i.e. Greeks of their day.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 



This GUY is a blind religious fanatic. and only someone equally blind would have an issue making a distinction between me and him.


I know you are different because you are not among the christians here, who blindly support jews and Israel.... I also know that you happen to be a non-jewish fanatic of jews who blindly supports Israel.
I kinda expected something else.

And just to make things even, I happen to be a non-jewish/christian/muslim supporter of Abrahamic monotheism.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I don't blindly support Israel. It is very possible that the anti-christ will be jewish. It seems to be set up that way. The jews rejected Jesus as messiah but they will accept only a jewish messiah. I believe he will rule from jerusalem and torture those who will not take his mark.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by dontreally
 


Jews will one day rule the planet...(and possibly other planet too)

Get use to it people, Jesus Christ will reign in Jerusalem as King of the Jews, being a Jew Himself.

Jews are God's chosen people and US gentiles will beg at the feet of the Jews for a chance to enter into the presence of Jesus Christ.

As for Jews right now in the present, they are lost sinners dropping into Hell every day. They are no better than anyone else right now....but soon they will be kings of the Earth.

Deal with it. S&F OP


I think you missed the part in the book of Revelation where Jesus only saves 144,000 jews. The jews were his chosen people, but that torch has been passed to the gentile nation of Messianic believers until God is done taking for himself a people from the gentiles. When he has completed that task of taking a people from the gentiles for himself he will then resume his attention to Israel after he has removed his gentile people from harms way. Remember, the Israelites were not always "chosen", at one time they too were pagan gentiles until Abraham threw down all the other gods and chose to only serve one.

I have already surrendered to Jesus, and it is at his feet where i wish to be.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I don't blindly support Israel. It is very possible that the anti-christ will be jewish. It seems to be set up that way. The jews rejected Jesus as messiah but they will accept only a jewish messiah. I believe he will rule from jerusalem and torture those who will not take his mark.


Or he could be of jewish descent. The romans took 100k jews into slavery to europe in 70 A.D. after the failed rebellion, their descendants may not even know who they are or where their ancestors come from. He could be of jewish descent from the U.S. but not even know it as 99.9% of the people here cannot trace their lineage back further than 150 years. I myself can only go back 1000 years and thats because i came from nobility who were very assertive about maintaining their bloodlines and keeping records of our family tree.

We cannot assume we know anything at all because we could be very very wrong and in truth me may not know a bloody thing. It is written that the anti-christ will fool the very elect. Who are the elect? The bride of Christ are the elect. So the anti-christ is going to fool even us. I think he will be a zionist wether a christian zionist or jew i cannot say, but he will be one smooth talker and have the entire world eating out of his hand including the jews.
edit on 9-12-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 




Remember, the Israelites were not always "chosen", at one time they too were pagan gentiles until Abraham threw down all the other gods and chose to only serve one.


And you have missed the part about the Israelites being from a grand-son of Abraham. i.e - There were no "Israelites" when Abraham encountered God.... or His angels.

Because all the "choosing" happened with Abraham.
and Isaac...father of Jacob (Israel) was ONE of the sons of Abraham.
Jews, i.e people following Judaism.... are just ONE of the people who descended from Abraham.

Either way, simply being from Abraham wont guarantee anybody salvation.

edit on 9-12-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-12-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by dontreally
 


Jews will one day rule the planet...(and possibly other planet too)

Get use to it people, Jesus Christ will reign in Jerusalem as King of the Jews, being a Jew Himself.

Jews are God's chosen people and US gentiles will beg at the feet of the Jews for a chance to enter into the presence of Jesus Christ.

As for Jews right now in the present, they are lost sinners dropping into Hell every day. They are no better than anyone else right now....but soon they will be kings of the Earth.

Deal with it. S&F OP


I think you missed the part in the book of Revelation where Jesus only saves 144,000 jews. The jews were his chosen people, but that torch has been passed to the gentile nation of Messianic believers until God is done taking for himself a people from the gentiles. When he has completed that task of taking a people from the gentiles for himself he will then resume his attention to Israel after he has removed his gentile people from harms way. Remember, the Israelites were not always "chosen", at one time they too were pagan gentiles until Abraham threw down all the other gods and chose to only serve one.

I have already surrendered to Jesus, and it is at his feet where i wish to be.


"144,000 jews"? No, was 144,000 Israelites. Even if we agree for the sake of the argument that the Jews are Judah, which I do not agree to, only 12,000 of this group were "Jews." The rest were from other tribes. The Jews would like to be all of Israel, and their propaganda is biased that way, but they never were, are not, and never will be.

The "pagan gentiles" to which you refer were not Israelites before Abram, as he was named originally, but they were Hebrews, descendants of Heber.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Who's Heber? You mean Eber? There's no "Heh" in the word Eber. Just as there is no Heh in Ivrim - Hebrews, or Ivrit Hebrew. Do you even know what that means???

The Hebrews were not pagans, and to say that is to really not understand what is meant by the word pagan.




The Jews would like to be all of Israel, and their propaganda is biased that way, but they never were, are not, and never will be.


What difference does it make. Do you have an oral tradition? Do you even know the esoteric/metaphysics of the Torah or Hebrew Bible? No? Well, the Yehudim, the Jews, do. Therefore, they are the only ones able, logically speaking, to bring the other 'lost 10 tribes' into the spiritual fold of the Hebraic tradition. Because Christianity, the Hellenistic incarnation and usurpation of Judaism, is certainly not that. But merely a new clothing for the Gnostic religion of Greece/Egypt/Babylon.

You should read, and understand the mythos of Greek civilization, Hesiods theogony. Gaia gives birth to Uranous, who marries gaia, and together they have cronus. Cronus is girded by Gaia to castrate his father, Uranous. The blood from his severe penis falls into the Ocean below, and from the blood and semen of Uranous, a foam is produced, and from the foam, Aphrodite.

One can also see this process in Romes collapse and the conversion of Constantine to Christianity. With Constantines conversion, the old (Uranous) order destroyed (via the passage of time - Cronus) and a New order, or system (Aphrodite) was established.

And so we see today, the Hellenistic drama again at play, with Christianity making way to a New Age humanism. Gaia - mans basic nature, cannot countenance the old order - Uranous - over the passage of generations (Cronus). Therefore, Gaia through Cronus destroys the old order. Deliberately, and consciously. The 'essence' of the old - uranous' semen - symbolizing the spirit of the old order, with his blood - symbolizing the energy - falls into the void - the ocean -. And from the conflict and chaos of disorder - the foam - desire, and beauty (aphoridte) and a new world order - emerges..
edit on 9-12-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


You're right, I knew of Eber, but for some reason wrote Heber. It happens. For the other, I was merely pointing out that Judah does not equal Israel. It's a subset. Where did this strange Greek mythos stuff come from? I recall that God even told His people that His ways were not their ways, nor His thoughts their thoughts.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 





Where did this strange Greek mythos stuff come from?


The mind of the Greeks. And according to Herodotus, ultimately from the Egyptians.




I recall that God even told His people that His ways were not their ways, nor His thoughts their thoughts.


True. But it wouldn't make very much sense to give a Torah, and then annul the entire thing.

The God of the Jews, or the Hebrews, does not endorse a relativism. Which is what Christianity is all about.

You look at Hebraism - the metaphysics (the inner philosophy) of the Torah, and compare that to Hellenism, Sophism, and especially to the above allegory above, in Hesiods Theogony, it's not hard to see at all that the Christian religion is the product of the hellenistic spirit, and not the Hebraic spirit. Its relativism, its lack of moral instruction beyond abstract philosophical principles, and oh, its history of senseless bloodshed for the sake of expansion (of not the religion per say, but of the empire of Rome, guided by certain noble families) should at least beg the question "what are the morals of Christianity", and, "What is its relationship to other, Non-Hebraic philosophies".. I think you would be quite surprised.

For instance, the Valentinians, who interpreted the Gospels in an esoteric, symbolic manner, used the symbol of the Greek, as an enlightened, pneumatic type, whereas the Jew, served as a symbol for the unenlightened, egoistic type, who ignorantly serves the demiurge as if he were the highest God.

And so, we understand the constant reference in the new testament to the 'father' as referring to the Godhead, as opposed to the Hebraic concept of God, as YHVH, as the 'being' of creation. The Christian God is beyond creation and is alien from creation. Thus, the Christian, who incarnates the spirit of the Godhead - referred to as Christ - is as well above the limited, created, and moral injunctions of the demiurge.....

Understand now the symbolism of the "Jews killing Jesus"? It's a blasphemous allegory, inasmuch as it is purely allegory, and fiction, which situates the Jew as the incarnation of egotism, and delusion, whereas the Christian the properly directed follower of the one true God.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by dontreally
 


You're right, I knew of Eber, but for some reason wrote Heber. It happens. For the other, I was merely pointing out that Judah does not equal Israel. It's a subset. Where did this strange Greek mythos stuff come from? I recall that God even told His people that His ways were not their ways, nor His thoughts their thoughts.



Indeed.

Isaiah 55:8 "Your thoughts are not my thoughts, neither are your ways my ways"



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:53 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


It's true...but the application of the aphorism is very wrong.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


It's true...but the application of the aphorism is very wrong.


Best i could do off the top of my head. It's one of my favorite verses and also one of the scariest because it shows us just how wrong we could be in assuming anything about knowing his mind. reading that verse makes me think were little more than a pissant compared to him.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Well, He's God...What do you expect? When we say mind, we think of OUR mind, and not what mind even is. So, the principle, abstraction of the concept of mind, is something a mind can never fathom, and so the human being has no chance in hell of ever understanding the creators mind.

Were only given an approximation of things. Our hand is an approximation of Gods hand. Our hand, is a physical symbol of what Gods "hand" - the power of giving, and sustaining, is. So, generally speaking, when people read the Bible, they don't read it with a developed and mature mind. They don't realize that a hand, and a leg, or eyes, are mere allusions to abstract spiritual concepts, which are only comprehended by human beings, in a simple yet concrete way, by physical analogy.

Remember that when you read the Bible. Try to understand the deeper ideas, the abstract - and archetypal "essence" of what that thing is. Understanding Hebrew is a way to help one understand. For instance, the word Panim - face - has the same root letters as Pnimim - "Inner". Thus, when God says Moses cant see Gods face, he means Man can't know Gods essential nature; only Gods 'back' - his Achor, his rear side. The part of Him which He emanates through creation.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 




The God of the Jews, or the Hebrews, does not endorse a relativism. Which is what Christianity is all about.


The God of the Hebrews is the God of the Christians, and no, there is no relativism. The new covenant offers forgiveness if you confess your sins and repent. The new sacrificial lamb is the Eucharist.

If you do not repent you will not have salvation. It's as simple as that. Don't let protestantism and its permissiveness deceive you. Sin is a very serious matter.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 04:33 AM
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reply to post by 547000
 
Christianity has a new name for god, Jesus.

Eucharist is what some Protestants call communion, which is the portrayal of the unity trough Christ between believers, where Jesus is absent physically but is present figuratively by the representation of his life and death, in the symbols of the bread and wine.
It does replace animal sacrifice but it does not serve the same function. It does not pay for sins after the fact but gives us the spirit of Christ to not commit sins in the first place, since we recognize each other as brothers through Jesus in that we share the same food, which is the spirit.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 05:08 AM
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dontreally sez:

"...when people read the Bible, they don't read it with a developed and mature mind. They don't realize that a hand, and a leg, or eyes, are mere allusions to abstract spiritual concepts, which are only comprehended by human beings, in a simple yet concrete way, by physical analogy."

Laz replies:

So you're saying that a real, concrete hand, leg or eye is a mere allusion "to abstract spiritual concepts". Such as an abstract, spiritual hand, leg, or eye. Sounds like Plato to me, and that's Greek!

In all you remind me of a would-be-Jewish friend of mine, who used to go on about Greek vs Hebrew thinking. I didn't really "get it" then, and what you say is still not connecting with me, except for the Plato thing.

On the other hand, what you say about God's face - the close relationship between the words for "face" and "inner" - now that does ring a bell. It reminds me of something I learned here on ATS,and it was worth all the time I have spent on the www. It is that if we plug the pictographic meanings of the letters into the tetragrammaton, YHVH or YHWH, we get "Behold the hand, behold the nail." Now, what do you suppose that means??



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


He said if you didn't eat His flesh or drink his blood you will not have life. It was not figurative, but He emphasized it becomes His flesh and blood. Same was repeated many times, and some disciples left Him for saying that. The Jews had to eat the sacrifice and so do we. It's not the one time sacrifice, but Christ established such a practice and we have to keep it.

I'm trying to draw hoe the old covenant foreshadowed the new. It's the same God.
edit on 10-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)




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