Have Christians ever sought to conquer the World for Christianity ?

The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

en.wikipedia.org...

This seems to fit.

reply to post by mikejohnson2006



The fundamental difference is that Christianity is a religion.
Islam is not merely a religion, it is a religious-political system. Christianity is not. Islam has a concept called "Dar-Al-Islam" (Extent of Islam) which basically states that the world belongs to Allah, and furthering the cause of Islam can be justified either by the sword (gaining political ground) or by conversion.

In Christianity, no such interest exists.

Where the Crusades are concerned, be careful with accepting the PC story that Crusade=evil, because it's just not that black and white.

I'm not suggesting that the Crusades and/or Crusaders were without fault (I don't think anyone can logically argue that - there were certainly atrocities committed), but the reason behind the Crusades was to reclaim and/or liberate the Holy Land from the grip of Islam. It's important to note, though, that this wasn't because of some great Biblical command to conquer the world, but because the Catholic Church saw the spread of Islam throughout the Middle East and into Europe, and saw that (political, religious and military) invasion as a threat - and sought to push it back... which ultimately they did... even if only for a time.

So the Crusades are a reflection of the church becoming a political entity (which it never should have been), and not because the Bible, or Christ, teach a form of Christian militarism. Neither do.

All that aside...
seperate Islam and Christanity out not according to history, but according to text and you'll have your answer. Islam mandates the establishment of a global Caliphate. Christianity doesn't seek to do any such thing. Jesus taught His disciples to go into the world and preach, not conquer.

hope that helps.

From what I have witnessed with Christians lately I don't think they are trying to conquer the world, they are trying to conquer our minds but if they conquer our minds they have indeed conquered the world.
All the preaching and threats I hear from them is just as bad tbh.

Well, there's a lot of talk about this and that, but, when push comes to shove, it was really just about political power with Christianity used as a convenient scapegoat. I really think that's what it's all about now.

Some really powerful, really rich people just find themselves in a position to make some money or get more power by exploiting Islam. These terrorist attacks are really just political statements.

I mean, think about it: they scream about infidels, but would they really care about "infidels" half a world away if we weren't always in the Middle East monkeying around in their affairs? Somehow, I kind of doubt it.

Particularly since they'd probably be too busy with their Sunni/Shia infighting.

The whole thing is really not so different from that Christian Dominionism garbage here in the States. Just somebody using religion to further their political agenda because religion is just about the easiest tool in the bag of evil-genius tricks.

do the crusades ring a bell ?
today's 'war on terror' is a veiled modern day crusade.

christians have a nasty habit of meddling in the affairs of governments around the world in their continuing attempts at world conquest.

in the 16th century the jesuits and all christians were expelled from japan for attempting to subvert the government.
with the penalty thereafter being immediate execution of all christians. one of many things the shogunate did right that ensured the peace and soveriegnity of japan up until the meiji restoration when japan was forced to open up to the outside world.

there are plenty of examples both past and present throughout history of christian attempts both overt and covert at taking over the world.

Originally posted by mikejohnson2006
The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are two categories of control in this world. Tyranny and Self-governance. All countries are a degree of this, just like fear and courage; hate and love; up and down and so on. Once you know this, follow the mindset by the fruit they produce.

The true Christian religion is based on faith in God for authority. The God of the Bible stands for equality of all people in loving-kindness to each other. This is a mindset that focuses on the power of the individual to serve the greater good of the many in place of the temporary gain of the individual. The golden rule is the primary law and is the only rule a person needs to live in peace and harmony with the world. Faith is in the spirit of the individual as a reflection of God's perfect love for us.

Anything else is a degree of difference toward tyranny. The Muslim faith seeks covet means to gain power and control by stealing, killing and destroying. The power rests in the few at the top who control the masses. Laws are geared toward taking the choice away from the individual. Faith is in power and not in God.

Know them by their fruits. America was founded on the mindset of Altruism and the power of choice for the individual to express liberty and freedom according to law and justice for all. As we drift away from this, we embrace tyranny and slavery of the people for the temporary gain of the few.

The good in life we all seek is found by where we start. If we start with seeking the things in life first, we end in suffering. If we start with God, requiring suffering work for the reward of others first, we gain true reward for ourselves in the end. Peace and security follows.

Matthew 6:33

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

The kingdom of God is love for others. If our faith is not placed in God, we do not see the goodness of ourselves in the other person. Humility before God is required.

reply to post by Awen24

Originally posted by Awen24
The fundamental difference is that Christianity is a religion.
Islam is not merely a religion, it is a religious-political system. Christianity is not.

When the first crusades were proclaimed by Pope Urban the II. with the words "Deus lo vult" (God wants it), he was in fact the ultimative authority of the religious-political system christianity was at that time in europe (1095 A.D.).

Originally posted by Awen24
Where the Crusades are concerned, be careful with accepting the PC story that Crusade=evil, because it's just not that black and white.

When it comes to the economic motives and goals behind the "holy" crusades then yes, it is that black and white.
If you go to other people's places, murder them and their families to take their stuff... then in my book thats evil.

reply to post by ColCurious


I have heard that the Crusades were primarily to take back their territory which the Muslims had just invaded and conquered. In your opinion, is that largely true?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by ColCurious

 

I have heard that the Crusades were primarily to take back their territory which the Muslims had just invaded and conquered. In your opinion, is that largely true?

false... they were for conquest and profit by the church.

reply to post by Expat888


Dear Expat888,

Thank you for your response. I wondered where I had received the impression concerning the causes of the Crusades, so I went looking. If you're interested, here's what I found:

Causes of the Crusades

Cause of the Crusades - 3000 Christian Pilgrims massacred in Jerusalem
Cause of the Crusades - Religious Conviction
Cause of the Crusades - The Instinct to Fight
Cause of the Crusades - The Preaching of Peter the Hermit
Cause of the Crusades - The Threat of the Turks
Cause of the Crusades - Pope Urban II & the Council of Clermont
Cause of the Crusades - "It is the will of God"

Maybe that's where I got my idea from. Or maybe it was from here:

The Crusades were a series of religious wars, blessed by the Pope and the Catholic Church with the main goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem. The Crusades were originally launched in response to a call from the leaders of the Byzantine Empire for help to fight Muslim Seljuk Turks expansion into Anatolia; these Turks had cut off access to Jerusalem.

Then again, it might have been here:

C. Immediate Causes

Since their victory at the Battle of Manzikert (1071), the Seljuk Turks had been pressing towards Constantinople and were now actually within sight of the city.

Alexius Comnenus, the eastern emperor, needed reinforcement. A couple of years previously, he had seen a group of western knights under the command of Count Robert of Flanders and returning from a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. He had been impressed by their fighting ability and decided to try to hire about 1200 such warriors. he sent his request, and the reasons for it, to Pope Urban II.

Urban was pleased, since the Holy Roman Emperor had set up a rival "pope" as a manoeuver in the Investiture Controversy, but the eastern emperor had asked for help from him. He wanted to help, so, after a council held at Aurillac in France, he gave an impassioned speech to the laymen who had come to hear him. He said little about helping Alexius -- since the westerners did not like the Byzantines all that much -- and concentrated on the mission to free the Holy Land. He promised them the Church's blessing, the aid of god, and the certainly of being taking immediately into heaven for those who fell in the attempt.

The crowd was swept up in the call, and the cry of Deus vult! ("Gods wills it!") spread far and wide. Almost all classes and nationalities of Europeans responded in a movement far greater and more varied than Urban may have expected. It is unlikely that anyone realized how well this call suited the needs and predisposition of the Europeans of the time.

www.the-orb.net... Well, at least now you know why I didn't think it was for money and conquest.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by mikejohnson2006


no, i have not ever attempted to dominate the world, maybe a conversation, but not the world

reply to post by Awen24


so islam is evil?

reply to post by charles1952

Your linked sources are not incorrect.
The first one unfortunately primarily concentrates on the christian "war propaganda" so to speak, but the second one does mention the real reasons behind the crusades here:

A. Basic Causes

2. Europe was already in a period of expansion, and its capacity for war and conquest had grown during the years of fending off raiders from all direction. Most importantly from the standpoint of the crusades, the Italian city states had developed navies of merchant/fighting vessels that had seized control of the Mediterranean. They had reconquered Sicily and southern Italy from the Muslims, and there was a general sense that, like the Vikings and Magyars, the force of the Muslims was spent and that the way eastward lay open.[...]

B.Intermediate Causes

Despite their growth, European society and economy were in a state of transition, and were unstable.

1. The aristocracy found themselves at relative peace, and were losing the importance they had enjoyed when they stood between Europe and its attackers. Their numbers were growing because there were no longer the losses in battle they had once sustained. They needed more land with which to endow their children and were beginning to fight with each other over the land that was available to them.[...]

6. The economic system was in a state of transition, with some districts specializing in some "industrial" crops to the point that they did not raise enough grain to feed themselves, and were doing so before the transportation and internal trading system had advanced enough to distribute consumer goods efficiently. So there were frequent local famines. At the same time, agriculture was improving so greatly in productivity that many people no longer had work. The peasants needed more food and more land to cultivate.[...]

I had this stuff in advanced history course back in school so my sources are in book form (and in german) but if you want to learn more about the circumstances, I would suggest to read up on the contemporary economic and social factors in europe.
For example: Robert Bartlett - The Making of Europe: Conquest, Colonisation and Cultural Change, 950-1350.

By the way... I'm not saying that any side of the conflict was "more evil" or "more rightous".
I was just responding to Arwen24's post to make clear that Christianity's role in this wasn't merely self-defensive at all.

reply to post by ColCurious


Dear ColCurious,

Thank you very much for your courteous and helpful reply. I have a lot of learning to do in this area and I appreciate the start you've given me.

I should keep in mind that there is almost never a single motivation for an act.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by mikejohnson2006
The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 6-12-2011 by Maxmars because: spelling correction

They started the Crusades, because they wanted to free the grave of our father, from Muslims.I don't see anything wrong in that.
They never intended to conquer the World or Palestine.

First of all, Catholics are not Christians......they are Catholic. How hard is that guys? Can't people spell, much less read Sound it out! How embarrassing that I see this same mistake almost 5 times a day on ATS.

So in conclusion, Islam, and Catholics have both tried to take over the world, multiple times. Christians have never wanted the world, at all!

Matter of fact:

1 John 2:15-17

"15 LOVE NOT THE WORLD, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So if a Christian wanted to take over the world, he would technically NOT be a Christian at all. (he would probably be a catholic)

reply to post by KJV1611


I spend most of my life confused, your post has temporarily extended that confusion. Starting from the premise that Catholics aren't Christians, would you pleas identify who the Christians were prior to, oh, say, 1700?

One other thing I'm not clear on, which I think you can clear up for me; when Jesus says "go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations . . . ." Do you see that as conquering the world?

By the way, I'm sure there must have been, but could you remind me of the Christian Armies who have conquered another country in the last 400 years?

Originally posted by boymonkey74
From what I have witnessed with Christians lately I don't think they are trying to conquer the world, they are trying to conquer our minds but if they conquer our minds they have indeed conquered the world.
All the preaching and threats I hear from them is just as bad tbh.

I believe they are the same thing as Muslims, they have their supposed witnessing, are successfully getting more people into going to Church to be brainwashed on their half truths. They have missionaries that go to other countries to basically force their religion on people who have no interest in what they are saying! There was the crusades who sought out and killed many gnostics, and people who were against Christianity. Christians proclaim that their way is the right way and they use fear mongering, and force their Children to go to Church so they can brain wash them at a young age. Tell their kids if they don't believe in God and do this and that they will go to hell. Real nice parenting there.
Then you have the Catholics who are part of the political system, who do the same thing, except they worship some already dead Pope, who thinks he's in charge. Mix all this together and yeah i would love to have all of them taken out, they are spreading their disease and have become successful.
Except now people like me who have come out of the brainwashing, and figured things out are rising up against these oppressors. These groups are like robots, and you ask them what does this mean, and their only come back is, This is the word God, blah, blah, blah!! Then they start malfunctioning and slowly and hopefully die off.
The three religions i mentioned, i believe are pure evil and not from God at all!! I can't wait until all these idiots wake up and go oh #! I just #ed myself! There is no rapture, Allah, Jesus, the pope, and God is not in control, and will not save you, period!! Get over it, you are in charge of your own actions and lives, and as soon as we get rid of these diseases, the sooner we get rid of War, fear, Evil, and negativity!

reply to post by Awen24

The fundamental difference is that Christianity is a religion. Islam is not merely a religion, it is a religious-political system.

So is Christianity, friend. Preachers such as Billy Graham have had the president's ear for many years now, and there is always a movement around this time of year to put Nativity scenes on government property, and reinstate Bible principles for everyone to live by. I just this morning on one of the cable news shows heard a preacher say that the Founders meant for America to be a Christian Nation. (Most were Deists) And what about the Aztec Nation that was put to the sword in the name of Christ? (For Being Pagan) Politics are preached from the pulpit, and the Churches pay not a cent in taxes. If the two book religions were to be put on trial, they would be put under the jail; for crimes against humanity, and defrauding a people while lining their own pockets.