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*Updated* The Masonic Pysche with Personal E-Mail from Author

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posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Although the context of Salza's words were christian (though not all), the context of this thread is not a christian context, but much more broad.


Let me hop into the argument for a sec:

I've never heard of Salza, but will assume momentarily that he's telling the truth about being a former Mason. Even if this is true, we can easily see by his website that he has come under the influence of the Roman Catholic Church, which has waged relentless war against Freemasonry and other free thinking societies since the Inquisition.

It's also ironic that he accuses Masons of using fallacious ad hominem, while he himself engages in ad hominem repeatedly. I don't know about you guys, but where I'm from, this is called being a hypocrite. First someone posts some garbage about Masons being satanists or worshipping owl gods or whatever; a Mason responds by calling the accusation ridiculous, then an opponent of Masonry accuses the Mason defending the fraternity of using ad hominem. Surely I'm not the only one who sees the comedy in this "logic".

Fiat Lvx.

Like I said many times before, I'm not talking about Catholicism, I am "reading between the lines."

And actually, I think he is attacking the message rather than the messengers, or rather the lack of message. For to say he is attacking the messengers, then we are assuming that the message is being given, yet it isn't, that is his point! His beef is with masonry being indefensible to christianity. And maybe you have not noticed it, but Masons on this board are employing such method...repeatedly. I didn't want to say it, but I think you are being blinded by your brothership and, in this respect only (at least the only I have noticed), you are clearly biased.
I thought it was quite obvious that it was a generalization he was making, and as with all generalizations there are exceptions. I wouldn't have posted this though if I hadn't noticed this particular tactic being employed on ATS.

But, back to your second post, how prevalent are the many rituals in Masonic books? As Salza says, rituals are the most important part in Masonry, and it is the rituals alone that Masons do not divulge when defending their Brotherhood.

How do you respond to those questions/statements?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Jamuhn]




posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by Jamuhn
But, I am still wondering how many masons have broken their oaths by saying certain things on the board.

Of the ATS members that are Masons I would expect that few if any have violated the oath they took in their particular Lodge or jurisdiction. The fact that you are left wondering is the evidence that nothing has been divulged. If folks are still guessing, the secrets are safe.



And if they haven't I have attempted to answer why they haven't. Though I'd appreciate more on-topic responses about 'the masonic pysche.'

I accept that you posted in the NWO topic group by accident, however it being posted here does have an influence. Perhaps more Masons visit "secret societies" topic group than visit the NWO topic group. I'd expect that you would receive even fewer posts had it been posted under predictions.
.


Well, the reason I am wondering is because the many boards I have perused, I have yet to encounter something solid in a few respects. For example, I still don't know the point of rituals, and I've heard many masons try to downplay its importance and thus avoid the question. Yet, this guy salzo is claiming it's the most important part of Masonry. So, I'm wondering if the rituals are covered by the Masonic oath, and when allegories of rituals might come into play to answer honest questions, they are avoided as a result.

Yea, df1, I am still trying to get it changed, go figure...


df1

posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
I still don't know the point of rituals...

I am not a Mason but I have started the process to become a Mason. One thing that influenced me to look into Freemasonry was the philosophy written and oral. This led me explore the symbology and ritual. My conclusion is that Masonic philosophy is expressed through ritual and symbology as well as the written and spoken word.

This same philosophy is expressed to the candidate in each of the 4 different forms to improve the candidates ability to clearly understand the information being conveyed. The mind evaluates written information differently than orally presented information. And the same holds true for information conveyed through the symbols and rituals. Also some individuals process information better in one form versus another form.

So ultimately "ritual" is one method of expressing Masonic philosophy.

Any Mason should feel free to refute, correct or expand as needed.
.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
His beef is with masonry being indefensible to christianity.


I could likewise say that I have a beef with his religious beliefs, because they are incompatible with Masonry. But if I did say such a thing, I would certainly deserve having my statement called silly by the other posters on this forum.
The reason for this is that his beliefs are none of my business, and my beliefs are none of his. That's why I level the "silly" critique at Mr. Salza: I do not believe he has a beef with Masonry because it is incompatible with Christianity. After all, Hinduism and Taoism are incompatible with Christianity, but Salza isn't creating websites about them.
It appears to me that his real beef is that those Masons who are Christians disagree with him, and this continues to ruffle his feathers. He has "seen the light" (so to speak), but his former Masonic brethren ignore him. The need to have one's beliefs validated by others was elaborated on in depth by Freud and Jung, so there's no reason to get into all that here. If he really found Masonry incompatible with his religion, he should indeed have left the fraternity. But his attacking Masonry points to a psychological phenomenon, not a theological one, IMO.



And maybe you have not noticed it, but Masons on this board are employing such method...repeatedly.


Again, I only need to point to the record here. I have never (not once) seen a Mason on this forum initiate an ad hominem attack. What I have seen, and constantly, is some conspiracy theorist pop up in the middle of a civilized thread, and begin attacking Masons with the most ridiculous of accusations, using ad hominem in infinitum. Masons are people, and when people are maliciously slandered, they get angry, and some return fire. I do not deny at all that some Masons here through momentary weakness have returned nastiness for nastiness, but it cannot be claimed that they were not provoked, and in the most offensive ways.


But, back to your second post, how prevalent are the many rituals in Masonic books? As Salza says, rituals are the most important part in Masonry, and it is the rituals alone that Masons do not divulge when defending their Brotherhood.


I think you yourself should be able to judge this statement of Salza's to be completely false; we discuss Masonic ceremony on a regular basis in the Secret Societies section, and have never refused to anyone's questions.

Fiat Lvx.









[edit on 10-9-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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Yes....they have Masonic Light. I've seen many a people be called idiots, or morally bankrupt, so on and so forth, for bringing honest statements/questions in reference to the order at large, not even the individuals. I know that other stuff occurs, and I think it's significantly covered where it happens, so I'm not bringing that up. I guess by provoke, you mean to question the mighty order LOL. Some guy can accidently step on my toes, and this could be taken as a provocation. So do I start yelling at the guy, calling him names? Of course not.

So, then...maybe you could point me out to a couple rituals. Or rather, could you explain to me the purpose of blinfolding a man, putting a noose around his neck and a sword at his chest while he reads the masonic oath?

What I'd really like for you or another mason to do, is debate the statements of Salza point by point, and where he would have thought of such an idea if the statements were false. I can see it now...it's all in his head.


Misdirection seems to be the word of the day.

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yes....they have Masonic Light. I've seen many a people be called idiots, or morally bankrupt, so on and so forth, for bringing honest statements/questions in reference to the order at large, not even the individuals. I know that other stuff occurs, and I think it's significantly covered where it happens, so I'm not bringing that up. I guess by provoke, you mean to question the mighty order LOL. Some guy can accidently step on my toes, and this could be taken as a provocation. So do I start yelling at the guy, calling him names? Of course not.


I think your statement here is extremely dishonest. Everyone who have asked questions respectfully have been answered respectfully, and anyone on this forum can run a search of past threads to see that for themselves.
Anyone can also see that as soon as someone honestly asks questions, a troll appears accusing us of being:

1. Liars.

2. Satanists

3. Atheists

4. Zionists.

5. Fascists

6. Communists

7. Liberals

8. Pagans

9. Jesuits

10. (insert your favorite scapegoat or crime group here)

Then, when a Mason attempts to defend himself against such ludicrous charges, the "opposition" cries "ad hominem", although I still can't find one single instance when a Mason actually used ad hominem on this forum. I've seen Masons get angry and engage in petty bickering with the trolls, but every ad hominem I've noted has come from the other side. Also, you will notice they almost always butt in a serious conversation started when an innocent bystander asks an innocent question. If anyone doubts this at all, simply click in the Secret Societies forum and read the threads.




So, then...maybe you could point me out to a couple rituals. Or rather, could you explain to me the purpose of blinfolding a man, putting a noose around his neck and a sword at his chest while he reads the masonic oath?


It seems I recall answering this exact same question yesterday on the Secret Societies forum. I'll assume for the moment that you honestly didn't see my reply, so will repeat it here:

Masonic rituals as used today had their beginning in the early 18th century, and the purpose of them was to communicate the philosophies and ideals of the Enlightenment. To understand Masonic rituals, it is absolutely necessary to understand the Enlightenment, and this is why all the major thinkers of the Enlightenment were Masons (Voltaire, Goethe, Benjamin Franklin, Frederick the Great, etc.).

According to the Enlightenment thinkers, men had been hoodwinked by the superstition of the dark ages, and had been bound by an allegorical cable tow of religious and political tyranny. The purpose of the Enlightenment was to free men from these bonds, and bring them into the light of reason and science.
Thus the candidate enters the Lodge room blindfolded (to represent the blindness of superstition), and bound by a cable-tow (not a “noose”). Upon receiving the rudimentary philosophy of the Enlightenment, which is given in Masonry in the form of speeches by the officers, he is freed from his blindfold and cable-tow, which ceremonially represents his receiving the light of knowledge against the false doctrines of the dark ages that made kings and priests the chiefs of the world, while making all others slaves.

The accusation that a sword is held to the Candidate when he assumes the Masonic obligations is false.




What I'd really like for you or another mason to do, is debate the statements of Salza point by point, and where he would have thought of such an idea if the statements were false. I can see it now...it's all in his head.


With all due respect, I have neither the time nor the interest to debunk Salza point by point, as the information on the subject is readily available for anyone interested on Masonic websites anyway. However, if you have any specific questions, I’ll try my best to answer.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:38 PM
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LOL, I think I know what happened from my own experience. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me the course of events or the intentions of masons responding to statements/questions. The fact that you are trying to defend situations/people that are totally a mystery to you and that you want to tell me I read opposite is just plain silly...LOL

But anyway, the ritual is very interesting Masonic Light, but I guess that's just the tip of the iceberg, eh? And, the sword part I got from an ex-mason on this board, so I'm assuming that it just doesn't happen in your large. BUT IT'S NOT...false.

I am starting to understand a little more now, as for the statement about Masons being as right as they are wrong...perhaps to do with the diversity in lodges and orders?

Anyway, yes I do have particular statements/questions, which I have scattered throughout this thread...And another asking about the most/next-most noteworthy ritual in your lodge.

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
LOL, I think I know what happened from my own experience. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me the course of events or the intentions of masons responding to statements/questions. The fact that you are trying to defend situations/people that are totally a mystery to you and that you want to tell me I read opposite is just plain silly...LOL


I wasn't speaking about you, but the trolls who populate the Secret Societies forum. "Mr. Necros" and "Public Gadfly" in particular, whom the moderators (who are all non-Masons) have had to issue numerous warnings for their behavior.


But anyway, the ritual is very interesting Masonic Light, but I guess that's just the tip of the iceberg, eh? And, the sword part I got from an ex-mason on this board, so I'm assuming that it just doesn't happen in your large. BUT IT'S NOT...false.


I don't know what any "ex mason" told you, but a sword is not held on the Candidate when he takes his obligation.


I am starting to understand a little more now, as for the statement about Masons being as right as they are wrong...perhaps to do with the diversity in lodges and orders?


I'm not sure what you mean about being as right as wrong. Obviously, this is impossible. If you're getting this from Salza, it is his position that the Roman Catholic Church is "right", and everyone else is "wrong". I don't think it's necessary for me to state exactly what I think about the Roman Catholic Church.



Anyway, yes I do have particular statements/questions, which I have scattered throughout this thread...And another asking about the most/next-most noteworthy ritual in your lodge.


I do not know what you mean by most/next-most noteworthy ritual. Again, if you have a specific question, I'll be happy to answer.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 07:29 PM
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LOL, yea, I stopped reading some of those mason threads, they are getting kind of ridiculous, aren't they. Well, when he Salza said "as right as they are wrong," I think he means that Masons believe strongly in relativity as opposed to absolute. I don't find this grounds to criticize any individual person on, especially seeing as I believe the same thing!

But when he starts saying that the organization itself is relative to each individual member, it makes me wonder how any Masonic elements can be defined.

Here's a question (I'll warn you, I probably have a followup), are rituals only performed during conferrence of degree ceremonies? Are there rituals that occur as specified times throughout the years (like holidays)? And if the answer to the later is yes, I was wondering if you could give me an example.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
LOL, yea, I stopped reading some of those mason threads, they are getting kind of ridiculous, aren't they. Well, when he Salza said "as right as they are wrong," I think he means that Masons believe strongly in relativity as opposed to absolute. I don't find this grounds to criticize any individual person on, especially seeing as I believe the same thing!


I suppose it would depend on what we mean by "relativity". Again, the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century comes into play. During that period, in continental Europe, all doctrines and beliefs not sanctioned by the Church were ipso facto heretical, and those who held such beliefs could be handed over to secular authority for punishment, or to the Holy Inquisition if such heresy was deemed "infamous". This heresy included, but was not limited to, Newtonian physics, neo-Platonism, modern French philosophy which tended toward Deism, the practice of Judaism, Islam, or Protestantism, etc.
Masonry simply states that each person has the right o his or her own beliefs without fear of persecution for holding them, providing only they do not interfere with the rights of others. If this is relativism, then I confess I am a relativist, and that proudly.
But if by "relativist" we mean one who does not believe in a priori knowledge, then Masonry is the opposite of relativism. It appears that one of the original purposes of modern Masonry was to provide a place for men to congregate who believed in God and the pursuit of proper ethics, but had lost faith in organized religion due o centuries of corruption and cover-ups of scienific knowledge. In a sense, it provided a system of regeneration without regard to the discredited religious authorities.

But Masons having their own private opinions about religious issues does not make the fraternity relativistic. Again borrowing from Enlightenment thinkers, Masonry has recognized the moral truths taught by the prime philosopher of the German Enlightenment, Immanuel Kant. Although Kant was not himself a Freemason, the Masonic Fraternity is profoundly influenced by his thought (because those Masons who modernized the Fraternity in its current form were largely Kantians). Kant believed there was a moral absolute, which he elaborated upon in "Grounding For The Metaphysics of Morals", "The Metaphysics of Ethics", and "Critique of Pure Reason". According to Kant, moral knowledge is a priori, meaning it can be approached through pure reason without reference to empirical evidence. In other words, rational beings can ascertain moral truth through reason and are obligated to act accordingly, regardless of their personal religious beliefs. The method to accomplish this he called the “categorical imperative”, which, in a sense, is hardly more than a highfalutin re-wording of the Golden Rule.



Here's a question (I'll warn you, I probably have a followup), are rituals only performed during conferrence of degree ceremonies? Are there rituals that occur as specified times throughout the years (like holidays)? And if the answer to the later is yes, I was wondering if you could give me an example.


In Ancient Craft Masonry, the three degrees of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason are the primary ceremonies. Some jurisdictions also use an honorary Past Masters Degree, which is conferred upon the Worshipful Master – elect as part of his installation.
Aside from the degrees, there is a Masonic funeral service for those who wish to be lain to rest with Masonic honors, as well as a ceremony called the Lodge of Sorrow, which is a memorial service for deceased members. There is also an annual ceremony to install officers for the incoming year, usually held in December. The non-degree ceremonies are open to the public.

In the Scottish Rite, aside from the degrees (4° - 33°), the Chapter of Rose Croix (which controls the 15° - 18°) commemorates Maundy Thursday and celebrates Easter Sunday. The Lodge of Perfection (which controls the 4° - 14°) celebrates the Feast of Tishri. These are also open to the public.

In the York Rite, besides the degrees, the Order of Knights Templar has a Christmas observance which is held at noon on Christmas day. This is likewise open to the public.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:26 PM
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I don't really follow on how a relativist could be defined as one opposed to a priori knowledge, but it seems that there are a couple of absolute truths, at least in the requirements of Masonry. And aside from that it becomes relative to the founders of the rites, lodges, orders, etc. as far as what is included.

BTW, I have the Kant book 'groundwork...;' I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it's on my list. I also have a book by Gay called "The Enlightment, The Rise of Modern Paganism." I haven't read it yet, but kind of a strange title. It seems the Enlightment had many spirits (no pun intended).

I see where you are coming from though, and it seems the Masonry takes from the Enlightment a passion for freedom (good). It seems this is where the relativity fits in, as per your first paragraph, in that freedom entails freedom of thought and expression.

I think I'm starting to get a better understanding of Masonry now. I keep thinking back to the supposedly original Libertarians, who were the Illuminati. What does this have to do with Masonry? The original Illuminati believed in freedom, all around. And I still wonder, "so wait, why are they bad again...." "order out of chaos, you say" I just don't understand how that connection is made, but that's a different thread.

Another thing I don't understand is why Masons are so proud of their order seeing as much of the world seems very similar. And, I still don't understand the part about women and the handicapped. I honestly don't buy the historical basis. I mean, historically America had slaves and women couldn't vote. Things change, you know, I'd figure Masonry would too. I couldn't even fathom who or what would initiate such a change if it were to happen, do you know?

Anyway, thanks for the response.


[edit on 10-9-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 05:55 AM
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mason psyche?? thats an easy one

total CONTROL FREAKS, and can you say P S Y C H O P A T H I C ????

no conscience. this may seems harsh, im sure there are some good Masons, but from the high ranking Masons I have know the above applies..to the point where they get heavily involved in others lives (control seems to be a MAJOR issue )



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
BTW, I have the Kant book 'groundwork...;' I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it's on my list. I also have a book by Gay called "The Enlightment, The Rise of Modern Paganism." I haven't read it yet, but kind of a strange title. It seems the Enlightment had many spirits (no pun intended).


lol, I've never heard of that one, but I'm putting it on my list also.


I think I'm starting to get a better understanding of Masonry now. I keep thinking back to the supposedly original Libertarians, who were the Illuminati. What does this have to do with Masonry? The original Illuminati believed in freedom, all around. And I still wonder, "so wait, why are they bad again...." "order out of chaos, you say" I just don't understand how that connection is made, but that's a different thread.


As for the Bavarian Illuminati, they were only one of many revolutionary liberal groups that existed in that period. After their suppression by the Jesuit Electorate of Bavaria, they became famous due to the infamous propaganda campaign waged against them by the clergy.
Concerning "Order Out Of Chaos": this was originally a motto of the Rite of Perfection, which evolved into the modern Scottish Rite of Masonry. This term was originally introduced by Newton to describe an orderly universe, governed by natural law, emerging from primordial chaos, but other Enlightenment writers also used it to describe the advent of the Age of Reason, and it is in this latter sense that it is used in Masonry.


And, I still don't understand the part about women and the handicapped. I honestly don't buy the historical basis.


If a man applied for membership in a sorority, he would be refused admission. Likewise, only men may apply to join fraternities.
As for the handicapped, they are perfectly welcome to become Freemasons. Our constitution states that those who are physically disabled may become Freemasons with a special dispensation from the District Deputy Grand Master, providing only that they are in possession of sight, speech, and hearing, without which they could not comprehend Masonic ceremony.
If a Candidate is bound to a wheelchair, the ritual may be slightly altered by the Lodge to accomodate him, with the permission of the DDGM. I've never known any DDGM to deny a dispensation to allow such a person to be initiated.


I mean, historically America had slaves and women couldn't vote. Things change, you know, I'd figure Masonry would too. I couldn't even fathom who or what would initiate such a change if it were to happen, do you know?


Grand Lodges convene once per year for an annual meeting; Grand Lodges usually consist of three representatives from each Lodge in the Jurisdiction, as well as the Grand Officers, whom the representatives elect from among themselves.
At these Grand Lodge meetings, Brothers may introduce amendments to the Grand Lodge Constitution, which contains the rules and regulations of the Fraternity. If proposed and seconded, the legislation is voted on. If a two-thirds majority approve the legislation, it becomes Masonic law.
To use an example, 2 years ago we approved a change in our constitution to lower the minimum age of joining the Fraternity from 21 to 18. The logic behind this change concerned the son of one of our members. He had wanted to become a Mason like his father, but was only 19. He was a member of the US Navy, and was killed in action in Bosnia. The Craft almost unanimously decided that if a young man is old enough to fight and die for his country, he is old enough to assume the responsibilities of being a Mason, and the young sailor who lost his life was made an Honorary Mason posthumously.

P.S. Please note the post written by "Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction", and recall what I wrote yesterday, that every time a Mason and non-Mason began to engage in a serious discussion on the subject, the thread is flamed by an opponent of Freemasonry using ad hominem.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 11:30 AM
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Hello Ladies, Gentlemen, Brothers,

I just stopped in to see how Leveller, Alex, Mirthful, and Masonic Light were getting along "fighting the good fight" so to speak.

First let me say to my Brothers here, hello, and I hope you are all well. I'd like to let you all know that I am now a Master Mason, as well as a Mason of the 32nd Degree in SR. It was all due to you, and you have my thanks.

I chose to post here, rather than making my own thread to come to the side of my fellow Brothers, and let them know that no matter what ignorance they face here, it's worth it to protect our beloved order.

I also wanted to tell the non-Masons here a few things...

First let me say that you are on the outside looking in, and Masonry is far from a glass house. You truly have no concept of The Craft, and therefore your constant prodding, guessing, and I assume, envy will never allow you to understand our order.

If you only knew what I have been through; the changes in myself and my life via the road of a Master Mason. If only you could understand what it is we believe in, and hold dear. A man who is independent in his thoughts and actions should harbor no fear of Masonry or Masons. No. No, it's only the meek, the coward, who should fear the lessons taught by Masonry.

I tell you now, I have seen and learned of things that I'd never have even thought of outside of The Order. I have made bonds with men, great men, which are stronger than some of my dearest family ties. I have been shown another side of the world, and I was man enough to accept it upon first viewing.

I feel sorry now for the non-Mason. You'll always stand on the outside of understanding, the outside of independence, and the outside of true knowledge.

I however, will be here, with my brethren, and I will never hunger for the above items.

Regards,

The Seeker



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 04:10 PM
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Seeker,

Safe it for someone who needs help in discovering their own soul and true potential.

Me and mason threads are done for a good while now. Thanks for the replies, arguments and interesting threads.


I still have not decided but you do well in either educating the people about freemasonry or unknowingly/knowingly protecting the hidden body that hides in the shadows.


[edit on 12-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by TheSeeker
First let me say that you are on the outside looking in, and Masonry is far from a glass house. You truly have no concept of The Craft, and therefore your constant prodding, guessing, and I assume, envy will never allow you to understand our order.


Never assume lol. Personally, I don't want to join something I don't know about. I've talked to many locally as well as on the board and I could talk to everyone in my city, but it would still take time to decide whether I wanted to join.

Though, through my experience, the masons in person seem much more approachable. While, on the other hand, there are masons on this board that seem to turn me off entirely. I'm not talking about you btw.

Just a perspective of a guy trying to get a peak before some other guy closes the curtains again.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Personally, I don't want to join something I don't know about. I've talked to many locally as well as on the board and I could talk to everyone in my city, but it would still take time to decide whether I wanted to join.


Actually, I feel the same way. Before I applied for membership, I'd already made a long study of Freemasonry, reading both Masonic and anti-Masonic books. If you're interested, I'd suggest the following:

"The Builders" by Joseph Fort Newton
"Symbolism of Freemasonry" by Albert G. Mackey
"Jurisprudence of Freemasonry" by Albert G. Mackey
"Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike
"Legenda" by Albert Pike
"The Mens House" by Joseph Fort Newton

As for anti-Masonic books, my favorites are "Freemasonry Interpreted" by Martin Wagner and "The Truth About The Masons" by Robert Morey. These are probably the best two anti-Masonic books because they base their arguments on facts instead of conspiracy theories, although of course I do not agree with their conclusions.
But the conspiracy books, even if they don't give a picture of reality, are at least fun to read. "Dark Majesty" by Texe Marrs, "Behold A Pale Horse" by William Cooper, and "The New World Order" by Pat Robertson fall into this category, as do the English translations of Leo Taxil's books, which likewise influenced Edith Starr Miller's "Occult Theocracy". I'd read most of these before I joined (I've heard that William Schnoebolen's "Masonry: Beyond The Light" was quite a doozy, but haven't got around to that one yet).

You can also read a pretty good Masonic book online: "Isit True What They Say About Freemasonry?" by Arturo DeHoyos, 33°, and Dr. S. Brent Morris, 33°, G.C.
The front page is only Chapter 1, be sure to click on the linkk at the bottom of the page for Chapter 2:

www.srmason-sj.org...

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Sep, 21 2004 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
DF1, Leveller.

does a man in a skeleton suit hug the 33rd degree mason at any point within washington?

Do 33rd degree masons leave through a different door then everyone else in the washington grand temple place?


They never have when I've been there...and I'm there often.

Oh, and it's called the House of the Temple on 16th St. NW in DC. You should go there sometime...they give a fantastic, informative and FREE tour. There is one place in the building you can't go in, though. The Vault in the Archives. It's FULL of dusty old books and manuscripts...some handwritten by Pike himself. They're actually fascinating to book-lovers like myself...

The general public isn't allowed in there though because they tend to sneeze a lot.



posted on Sep, 22 2004 @ 02:30 AM
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You know, Jahmun, I have read through this thread, and what I see is a lot of complaining about not knowing the secrets of masonry. It kind of begs the question: what makes you think you have a right to the answers?

More to the point, while you complain (endlessly) about not getting straight answers, I really haven't seen a question to be answered. You go on and on about ad hominem this and that and how no one will answer... well, ASK for g-d's sake and stop complaining, and MAYBE one of us will answer your question.

How about that?



posted on Sep, 22 2004 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
ASK for g-d's sake and stop complaining, and MAYBE one of us will answer your question.


I've noticed a few of the masons using g-d instead of the standard god (or God). This is something that previously I had only encountered with followers of Judaism, which I believe is not the case here. Can one of you elaborate on this? I remember a Jew once telling me that the use of the word God was blasphemous, as it is one of the true names of the Judaic deity. One more question, if you don't mind, while I'm asking. I seem to recall one of the prominent mason posters stating that the secrets of masonry do not solely lie in the means of recognition, but ML has stated this to be untrue a few posts back. I wish I could quote them, but I have absolutely no idea in which thread I read this.




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