*Updated* The Masonic Pysche with Personal E-Mail from Author

Could a mod please move this to the Secret Societies Forum?

I found this quote, and I thought people would be interested:

Instead, the Masonic apologist generally uses an ad hominem argument to defend the Lodge. An ad hominem argument is an argument that attacks an opponent's character rather than answering his contentions.

This was written by a 32nd degree Mason with a proficiency card!

Could this be a defense mechanism resulting from the Masonic oath?

I, _________, of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God, and this Worshipful Lodge, erected to Him and dedicated to the holy St. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the secrets, arts, parts, point or points, of the Master Mason's Degree, to any person or persons whomsoever, except that it be a true and lawful brother of this Degree, or in a regularly constituted Lodge of Master Masons, nor unto him, or them, until by strict trial, due examination, or lawful information, I shall have found him, or them, as lawfully entitled to the same as I am myself.

Due to some people questioning the authenticity, I decided to write an-email to the author of the first quote and many of its subsequent in which he replied:

"As my webpage indicates, I was a 32nd degree Mason and Shriner. I also
received the Proficiency Card for being an expert in Masonic ritual. I have
certificates, pictures, documents, rituals, letters, etc. to prove it. But
that really doesn't matter. What matters is what I and many Christian men
are saying about Freemasonry. Masons love to attack the messenger, but they never want to address the message. This is because their Freemasonry is indefensible from a Christian perspective. All this will be coming soon in
my book about Freemasony which will be out by the end of the year.

God bless.

John Salza"

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

So the masons on ATS do this because its common to their kind to attack peoples credibility and honor instead of giving an actual intellectual argument?

Did the article say anything about the much seen phenomenon of jumping on discussions with overwhelming numbers, all writing 500 word posts with nothing in them but hot air and like this, booring everyone out of the discussion? After wich they will call the discussion a victory because they are the only ones that still bother following the thread?

Well, here's another little bit:

Freemasonry...promotes indifferentism. Indifferentism is the heretical belief that all religions are equally legitimate attempts to explain the truth about God which, but for the truth of His existence, are inexplainable. Such a view makes all truths relative and holds that God can be equally pleased with truth and error.

I.E. All Masons are equally right as they are wrong. Does this help matrix?

Wow, interesting, this taken from the Masonic Oath:

All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steady resolution to perform the same, without any hesitation, myself, under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had of so vile and wicked a wretch as I would be, should I ever, knowingly, violate this my Master Mason's obligation.

Kind of gruesome, don't you think?

Masons conspicuously avoid using their rituals to defend the Lodge against...opposition.

When [one] criticizes the teachings of Freemasonry using the rituals, the Mason often evasively responds by saying "No one speaks for Freemasonry." Such a response is not genuine, and is really just an effort to avoid addressing the rituals. Any honest Mason would admit that his Grand Lodge's ritual is the authority that speaks for Masonry in his jurisdiction, and it is from these rituals that we learn of Masonry's teachings about God, resurrection, and eternal life...

Hmm, so Masonic rhetoric is just fluff without knowing ritual?

Looks like it.

Did it say anything about the thing where they point a sword at you while taking the oath?

Do they use that sword for other things?
Do they wear swords?

I would so shove that thing where the sun don't shine if they even remove it from the scabard when I'm around.

I've been reading about it too, something writen by pope Leo 13, seems the catholic church (and other religions) are quite opposed to Masonry.

Why don't you just provide the link for this material instead of disseminating it piecemeal? Not "profitable" enough?

Jamuhn's "secret source".

After finishing with the disinformation, a good place to look.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Why don't you just provide the link for this material instead of disseminating it piecemeal? Not "profitable" enough?

Jamuhn's "secret source".

After finishing with the disinformation, a good place to look.

Ah, Mirthful Me, you employ the ad hominem argument instead of debating the points made....typical.

So instead, you criticize me and provide me a vague website and provide no specifics...

BTW, you forgot one:

Masonic Oath

[edit on 6-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Mirt: I'll read that site the moment my popupblocker stops going bonkers.

Hope its not some hyper pro masonic site with more senseless banter, because I really don't feel like falling asleep yet :@

A pitty you guys aren't alowed to share the knowledge, ways and information of the lodges, now we goto go find them all by ourselves.

Nice though that a 32 degree mason still has enough sence in him to be able to leave his lodge and let the world share some knowledge.
(I also heard this specific guy had some sort of card with wich he was alowed to command everyone in his and the lower degree's?)

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Ah, Mirthful Me, you employ the ad hominem argument instead of debating the points made....typical.

So instead, you criticize me and provide me a vague website and provide no specifics...

My criticism is specific, you were posting snippets from one website without credit or link, I provided the link to the "vague website" and a link to another website that thoroughly refutes your parsimonious "quotes" (how fair minded of me). I think that dispels your ad hominem claim, perhaps you would be willing to confirm your source, and permit the discussion to begin in earnest.

Yes, that is the source I used, I think it's fairly obvious. But, I'm not going to dig through that site because I know I will not find anything refuting the claims of the 32nd degree Mason.

If there were refutations to be found, I'm sure you would have quoted it by now. Glad to see you are evading the statements...typical.

By all means, begin!!!

[edit on 6-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yes, that is the source I used, I think it's fairly obvious. But, I'm not going to dig through that site because I know I will not find anything refuting the claims of the 32nd degree Mason.

Ignorance Denied?

What proof do you have that the claims are made by a 32nd Degree Mason? There is no name, nothing that can be verified... yet you put unwavering faith in this "claim". Let you in on a little secret, every one of my posts is made by a 32nd Degree Mason... me. What's more, it can be proven (unlike your source), at the ATS Adventure in Michigan I showed all the attendees my dues cards (and my proficiency card!) for Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, York Rite, and Shrine. Feel free to u2u any of those that attended and verify this... how's that for irrefutable?

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yes, that is the source I used, I think it's fairly obvious. But, I'm not going to dig through that site because I know I will not find anything refuting the claims of the 32nd degree Mason.

Ignorance Denied?

What proof do you have that the claims are made by a 32nd Degree Mason? There is no name, nothing that can be verified... yet you put unwavering faith in this "claim". Let you in on a little secret, every one of my posts is made by a 32nd Degree Mason... me. What's more, it can be proven (unlike your source), at the ATS Adventure in Michigan I showed all the attendees my dues cards (and my proficiency card!) for Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, York Rite, and Shrine. Feel free to u2u any of those that attended and verify this... how's that for irrefutable?

Once again, you provide nothing to refute the claims of this 32nd degree Mason. Obviously, you are concerned with personal status alone and wish that to be the dominant influence in this thread. Am I surprised? definitely not in your case.

LOL, do you think I really care who or what you are? No, no I don't.

Ignorance Denied?

Why don't you look at the bottom of the page? You will see that the author is named John Salza.

Actualy, before you start boasting your apearance there, don't be to proud of it. The other people that attended weren't to happy. Seeing they weren't able to talk about much ATS related exept hearing you doing a Masonic promotion tour while sipping a nice glass of wine.

I think Jamuhn propably didn't pull this site from out of his ears without checking its validity. I'm sure he has a valid and credible source.

On another note, are you ready to refute something a pope said about Masonry? Something being a text nearing booksize? Posted on the vatican site itself?
Do you want me to post a link to the Humanum Genus paper writen by Pope Leo 13?

Anti Masonic Drivel
There are many misunderstandings among the general public about the organization called Freemasonry (also known as "Masonry" or "the Lodge"). While much of the public thinks that Freemasonry is just a fraternity, Masonry has been judged by every Christian church that has studied it to be a religion that is incompatible with Christianity. The Lodge religion espouses a belief in God as the Grand Architect of the Universe, the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body. Masonry also believes that man can achieve salvation by his good works, independent of God's gift of grace. However, Masonry does not require its members to believe in Jesus Christ or His Church.

Freemasonry is also controversial because it keeps its religious and moral teachings secret behind the Lodge doors. To that end, Masonry requires its members to swear to God an oath that they will never reveal the teachings of the Lodge lest they be worthy of death. Masonry also conditions its members to believe that Masonry is just a fraternity. By God's grace, more and more men are leaving the Lodge each year and revealing the incompatibilities between Freemasonry and the Christian faith.

Refuted here.

And here.

Here too.

Types of objectors.

Since you have no personal experience to draw on, nor any other source than whichever anti-Masonic site you are currently visiting to draw upon, I will simply follow suit, and refute via proxy.

LOL, I'm not posting Anti-Masonic rehetoric. Everything I posted draws on why I would never join Masonry and the pysche of Masons. As well, one of two sites I showed was just a mere repition of the Masonic Oath!

The sites you have posted have no relevance whatsoever. That is precisely why I left all religious contexts out of my quotes. Instead of getting real responses to the statements, you have chosen to hand me crap about religion.

The only relevant link I found was the last one, which attempts to call all those who are opposed to Masonry bigots and the like.

Once again, employing the ad hominem argument you are, totally avoiding the statements made, and instead chosing to claim that vague websites refute the statements I have given from a 32nd degree Mason with a proficiency card.

Am I surprised? No, not at all, in fact, you are precisely proving the quotes I have shown. Thanks.

By the way, I have frequented masonicinfo.com and I've found a lot of information in there that turns me off masonry even more. As well, I have been turned off by the fact that certain Masons on this board try to declare that all who don't join Masonry are morally bankrupt. That is, in addition to the handicapped and women who aren't allowed to join, but no, we never talk about this.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by thematrix
Actualy, before you start boasting your apearance there, don't be to proud of it. The other people that attended weren't to happy. Seeing they weren't able to talk about much ATS related exept hearing you doing a Masonic promotion tour while sipping a nice glass of wine.

I think Jamuhn propably didn't pull this site from out of his ears without checking its validity. I'm sure he has a valid and credible source.

On another note, are you ready to refute something a pope said about Masonry? Something being a text nearing booksize? Posted on the vatican site itself?
Do you want me to post a link to the Humanum Genus paper writen by Pope Leo 13?

Actually the Catholic Church's condemnation of Freemasonry is a source of pride for most Masons, the thought of being accepted by the Vatican is personally revolting to say the least. I'll save you the trouble.

Humanum Genus

As to my presence during the ATS Adventure in Michigan, the only person who objected to my attendance was All Seeing Eye, and he demonstrated the same lack of internet bravado that you would have if you had attended. The rest of the attendees seemed quite comfortable with me (Ycon was a mystery, she didn't say two words to anybody), and I would say the u2u traffic I have received from them since would indicate your perception is incorrect.

It was good wine.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
As to my presence during the ATS Adventure in Michigan, the only person who objected to my attendance was All Seeing Eye, and he demonstrated the same lack of internet bravado that you would have if you had attended. The rest of the attendees seemed quite comfortable with me (Ycon was a mystery, she didn't say two words to anybody), and I would say the u2u traffic I have received from them since would indicate your perception is incorrect.

It was good wine.

Lol, nice try on the ad hominem thingy

You'd have a handfull with me if you'd meet me in person.
Don't think I would be scared by someone that looks like a sports jock with a load of Masonic signs, blabering about things I've aquired more then enough information about and still am in the process of learning more about.

When I was younger I've been fired from more jobs then I can count simply because I don't let anyone toss bullocks at me, no matter if hes the VP of Staples International or Bill Gates himself.
Although I did have a good time talking to Bill at The House of the Future some days before it was opened and he visited to check the place out, I did go into a rather deep discussion with him about the implications of the over informatizing of money and personal information systems.

Apart from that there are also some notions of refusing direct orders of a superior on my record, because I knew by heart what he wanted me to do was incorrect, and after dealing with the repremends for it, I did prove him wrong and got his apology.

Attacks on my person won't work, getting me down won't work either, booring me till I fall to sleep won't work either since. I got other stuff to do then sleep.

PS: normaly I would require you to prove the U2U traffic, but having been online for a long time and respecting and protecting privacy online, I'll have to disregard your argument and can't ask for that proof, I also hope you refrain from showing disrespect to the people U2Uing by using them as arguments without their consent.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by thematrix]

So...have any masons broken their oaths by speaking about Masonry on ATS?

Just curious, cause it seems there are only three options: 1. to ignore questions/statements totally, 2. lying about the information, 3. breaking the Masonic oath.

I realize this isn't in respect to all information about Masonry, but I saw this in a Masonic oath:

I, _________, of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God, and this Worshipful Lodge, erected to Him and dedicated to the holy St. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the secrets, arts, parts, point or points, of the Master Mason's Degree, to any person or persons whomsoever, except that it be a true and lawful brother of this Degree, or in a regularly constituted Lodge of Master Masons, nor unto him, or them, until by strict trial, due examination, or lawful information, I shall have found him, or them, as lawfully entitled to the same as I am myself.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Mirthful Me, it was nice meeting you at the party. I am not a fan of the masons and if I would of known a 32nd degree royal mason was going to be there, I probably wouldn't of went. Its nothing personal Me a mystery? LOL that might be one thing I agree with you on.