The ULTIMATE expression of ignorance -- "Pics or it didn't happen"

Originally posted by WannabeMartian
reply to post by Visiting ESB

 

As a great man once said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

I totally agree with that quote , but sometimes we are not always in a position to provide such evidence.

A well written account should be given the credit it deserves , because in all fairness , a picture would not make the account any more believable .

ATTENTION ALL

Enough with the off-topic banter. This isn't 4chan. In other words, we don't use "Facepalm' and troll images to express ourselves. We do it through civilized discussion.

Thank you.

My appologies for using the word "Tr*ll " .
I will refrain in future

My prior posting of my disappointment with some members was a generalized statement based on what I've seen as a reoccurring action, and was not aimed towards you sir as I for the most part have found your posts and sentiments to be rather entertaining and intelligent.

Originally posted by Phage
The "mere reporting" of a sighting more often than not is utterly useless (other than, "Hmmm. Interesting").

Well fortunately many researchers/investigators (myself included) disagree with that train of thought. Sighting reports are an intricate life blood for the gathering of information. The sighting date data alone has helped me in my own personal sighting library. "Over the past year, we've been averaging 500 sighting reports a month, compared to about 300 three years ago (67 percent)," MUFON international director Clifford Clift said. So for myself and many others, this is a very exciting time to be gathering sightings data. The more the merrier we say in these exciting times....

But here's a problem, I think many members perform a disservice to those here that are trying to relate an event or give a report. Here are these folks, who are trying to share about something that they can't quite understand (much less describe completely). And instead of attempting to try and glean as much information as we can about the supposed event, many don't even attempt to ask any questions to the witness before conclusions are made. And without us probing and gleaning for information presented by a witness, small nuggets of 'gold' may never be obtained and discovered.

Not everyone can report or put into words what we researchers might be searching for, this is a new experience for them (the witness) to try and adjust to. They probably already feel a bit weird in having to try and put down in words what they've witnessed. And now some impatient person is yelling out "Pics or it didn't happen". One has to understand that the information extraction methodology with a witness is a skill in itself. Unfortunately I don't see that process being exercised often. Is it any surprise that many people have told me privately that they would not post up their sighting because of those that rush in and start yelling about fakery, hoaxing, lying, etc. Add to that an attitude that the witness must be off their rocker to not be able to distinguish between a plane, a balloon, Chinese Lantern, a piece of lens particulate or moisture. "What, no camera, everyone owns a camera"...." how stupid can these people be" (sarcasm)

(Johnny sighs) Patience people... patience.

Originally posted by Phage
Adding the notoriously low reliability of eyewitness reports, the mistaken belief that one can judge the size, distance and speed of a unrecognized object in the sky and the tendency for the human mind to "fill in the blanks" after the fact, add those to the confirmation bias expressed by most of the witnesses which provide "reports" here and you end up at a dead end. Nothing to discuss unless you just want to say "Wow! You saw a UFO!" I would agree that the witness saw something they were unfamiliar with. Good for them.

A statement like this tells me that here is a member that probably already has a predetermined attitude about the witness (all witnesses for that matter), and as a Moderator makes me wonder why such a member would still frequent said genre/forum. That's not really helping the witness out or the genre (not to mention setting the proper-like ambassadorship as an ATS member). I'm a skeptic, a debunker and a believer, so I need to get as much info as I can, if I have already a predetermined mindset, then I am not doing the thread or the witness any positive service.

I have interviewed a number of people that turned out to be pilots, engineers, policeman and many others that had no photographs or video to back their statements up and still I found their reports very credible. And many surprisingly divulge (after some polite coxing) a great amount of detail that was lacking from the original report. You never know who is on the other end of the 'keyboard', but with a little positive inquiring and patience, it's surprising how much more information you can get with 'HONEY, not 'VINEGAR'

****Continued below*****

Continued:::

Yes ATS, there will be disappointments, yes there will be those seeking a digital ego build because of their hoax's, yes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yes, and yes. But please folks, we will get no where if we follow the thought that "most of the witnesses which provide 'reports' here and you end up at a dead end."

I'm not asking you to give up any belief system, I'm asking you to gather information before coming to premature conclusions. If you think there is something strange about the report, inquire about it. Back up your posts with reasons as to why you feel the way you do after accumulating information. Please don't dive into a thread with a preconcieved idea about a report and sighting.

We need to develope and have a civil investigative sense among ourselves. The esteemed Dr. Jacques Vallee once said: "I am probably the only person who doesn’t know what UFOs are. Most Ufologists know (or think they know) that UFOs are spacecraft vehicles, in other words, spacecraft from another planet… In the meantime, the vast majority of scientists and technologists continue to regard all this as complete nonsense… Never has the situation been so clearly polarized. Never has it been harder to do good research."

So here's some Investigative DO's (BTW, these are not mine, but they do cover a good general portion of what I believe to be effective) :

Always Ask Ask your questions in a clear and concise way. Never assume anything, always ask for more information.

Always Establish Certainties Location/date/time, their activity at that time, weather/day/night conditions, size (from an outstretched arm), luminosity, number of witnesses, trajectory, normal air traffic, nearby airports, possible hospital heliports, etc..

Always be Objective and Thorough. Keep your perceptions clear. Have a healthy dose of skepticism, but keep your feelings and personal opinions to yourself. A rational and balanced skepticism that seeks persuasive evidence and admits to the limits of present-day knowledge is preferred to wide-eyed gullibility. What is being alleged here is not to be taken lightly. The implications may well be staggering. It is just as unwise to render an anomalous claim harmless by covering it with a blanket explanation pulled out of a hat as it is to fill the explanatory vacuum with mystical theories based on little more than unverifiable assumptions about the nature of the universe. Being objective means not pre-judging a claim and allowing for the possibility of coming to accept it as true, if enough facts and evidence are provided. Investigators must be both skeptical and objective.

Always be polite. Treat everyone you post to with respect and dignity, for the most part this is a strange experience for the witness to have to do, to tell an incredible story/report. Politely present any reasons why you think their experience just might have a normal cause and calmly explain those facts. Avoid arguing and name calling with anyone for any reason. It is never worth it.

Always give yourself enough time to allow the most comprehensive information to come to light. Liars rarely tell the same story twice.


:::::And Always Remember:::::

Hoaxers. While monsters and alien spacecraft are not yet (publicly) proven to exist, hoaxers certainly are. Ordinary folks will go to extraordinary lengths to carry out a hoax and many are prepared to invest an enormous amount of effort in their deceptions for no obvious reward. Hoaxes have significantly influenced the development and perception of many unsolved mysteries.

Hoaxers fall into one of two basic categories. The engineers of an active hoax takes pleasure in the limelight and public interest and happily assign their name to the "experience" and spurious evidence in the form of photographs, videos, et cetera. By far the more numerous, the participants of a passive hoax act in secret and prefer anonymity. Passive hoaxers create crop circles or mysterious tracks when and where the chance of being discovered is slight. They dress up like Bigfoot or launch balloons with flares attached. They mail bogus photographs or sighting reports anonymously to the media or to recognized researchers. Quite often, merely uncovering the identity of the passive hoaxer solves the case. While most hoaxes are clumsy attempts, others are truly ingenious.

Never underestimate the capabilities of a hoaxer or the possibility of a hoax. But with that said...

****Continued****

Continued::

Weird happens.

People have encountered unexplained lights, objects, creatures and entities since man has walked the Earth. We are being constantly bombarded by astonishing tales of huge hairy bipeds, frog people and reptile men; living dinosaurs and monsters in our lakes and seas; eerie apparitions and ghost lights; Mothman; everything but the kitchen sink falling from the sky; crop circles; giant birds; Men in Black; cattle mutilations; UFO's and USO's and those that pilot them. The list goes on and on. One need not believe in such things in order to meet them either. Anomalous phenomena can evoke shock and terror. Factors of perception such as duration of the event and distances involved come into play. Our sum total of knowledge concerning the unexplained and unknown has always depended too heavily upon the accuracy of excited eyewitness observation and memory.

As any researcher will tell you, it is of the opinion that over 97% (+ -) of all sightings can be explained after a well completed investigation, but that 3% can be extremely exciting to contemplate!

Happy Investigating!
Johnny

I wonder how many incredibly great, truthful and accurate accounts of startling events that were never posted because of discouragement or a fear of being blasted with "POIDH". We can't know what true stories and phenomenal events that were/are true and amazing, and could have been shared, but were never shared.

The point is -- the very people we want and we hope to discourage from posting nonsense, crazy exaggerations, distortions and outright lies are the very same people who don't care if they are told ... "Pics or it didn't happen" -- that doesn't deter or discourage "them" from posting made up events .... them = liars.

I'm not sure, but it's very possible if I had an unusual story or phenomenal event to tell, or I witnessed an unusual event that seemed out-of-this-world, hard-to-believe defying logic, I might not bother to post it because I know I'd just get blasted with the idiotic "POIDH".

No one wants to be called a liar. But, those who lie and make up stuff and fabricate events and stories really don't care if they are attacked or called a liar with "POIDH". They'll just move onto another audience, a more gullible audience, until they find one they can screw around with and play head games.

I believe many of the very people that become discouraged with "POIDH" or feel "why bother" are the ones with a true story to tell -- not those who are lying attention seekers hoping to jerk people around and play games.

In other words, IMO, we are probably missing out on some really great stories and events that are true and that DID happen because of "POIDH".

I starred you OP ... thanks for bringing about this awareness.

Honestly...noone really cares much about your "experience" as that is PERSONAL to you, sharing an experience is done so through a different medium, i.e pictures.

Please do not waste anyone's time here by rambling on about your fantastic voyage aboard a Grey's spaceship if you don't have anything to show for it.

We have seen enough hoaxer threads on ATS to last a lifetime, people seeking a degree of popularity or attention.

Pictures/Video do go a long way in substantiating claims, especially if they pass scrutiny.

reply to post by Visiting ESB




OK if you want to compare this business to a court then be sure to include a prosecution as well as a defense. In the case of a UFO sighting by one person how are we, the jury, to make fair judgment when there is no opposing side to rebut? So we become the prosecution out of need. Now add to the fact that there is so incredibly much bull# floating around the internet and it should be pretty easy to figure out why noting is ever proved one way or another. Now here you are with a picture or two. And on the other side is Photo Shot waiting to attack. Sorry man. It just isn't that easy.

You know what you're right and the fact is that people who debunk this stuff try to change something in the public opinion , of what people really think about UFOs.

if the masses of people are beginning to believe ,the ones who have to fight of this battle that is going on about UFOs are going to loose and governments are to having problems to withhold evidence that is so overwhelming in our mids.

I also do think that secret fundings are taking place that stimulates all computer graphic imagery companies to make it possible that the subject is fully ignored due to CGI fakes. Its strategy nothing else. The new unblurr PS5 or 6 function for example. I think they gonna sabotage it because it will be harmful for lot of people who dont want us to know!

At the other-hand we have to look in a skeptical way to new material thats been placed on the you tube or somewhere else because there still real footage taken within a lot of fake stuff.

But some stories ore more convincing that 1000 pictures together. So never stop believing!

oopsie double post

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
I'm a skeptic, a debunker and a believer,

Great quote. I will pinch that and add to my sig after tea.

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
As any researcher will tell you, it is of the opinion that over 97% (+ -) of all sightings can be explained after a well completed investigation, but that 3% can be extremely exciting to contemplate!

And probably at least 97% (+ -) of sightings aren't reported at all. These are the ones that you come across only by chance and chatting. That's been my experience anyway.

Originally posted by Phage
Growing up I believed that UFOs were most likely ET visitors.
I don't believe that so much any more.

Wow coming from you that is unusual because you crash lots of threads around here? I do not mean this offensively because your a very bright person when it comes to evidence..

reply to post by tpg65


They really want us to shoot them down.. The ultimate evidence I think...or will they say its the best Lego ship I've ever seen?

reply to post by nv4711



I thought someone would caught on LOL! The OPPS I mean OOPS LOL!

2nd line

Hmmm... 14 pages of discussion about whether you need evidence or not.

Well, there's a great precident for this - it's called religion.
Or faith, belief, whatever.

I don't see a sign at the door saying Church of Above Top Secret, so please bring some evidence if you desire 'followers'.

Simple as that really.

Maybe I'm wrong, and this place really is a church, with poor marketing?

Now if folks started off each claim by sayin' "I BELIEVE I saw a UFO...." we'd be getting somewhere.

But they don't. They leave out the belief part, provide no evidence, and therefore confuse fact with personal belief.

Believe what you like or think you saw, but if you want more than blind followers you need something more. That's just the way it goes outside of the religious stuff.

Originally posted by ommadawn


Now if folks started off each claim by sayin' "I BELIEVE I saw a UFO...." we'd be getting somewhere.

But they don't. They leave out the belief part, provide no evidence, and therefore confuse fact with personal belief.

Can you expand on that a wee bit? It's a tad confusing.

It's a tad confusing.

That's not a question, just a statement.