"Genderqueer" individual "doesn't identify as male or female"; demands special recognition

Why is everyone so worried about other peoples sexual preference and how they identify with themselves.

Get over it.

Don't complain about people seeking attention by giving them attention!

lets talk about conspiracys and aliens.

reply to post by Pinke

Definitions are murky. Especially since several sides of the debate just use whatever term they please whenever they want.

The problem is not that this guy is a TS... I have no problems with people who were once gender confused and finally found their true gender...

I have a problem with this "thing".... you are either a female or a male... you can be one one night and another the other but you choose who you are one at a time... YOU CAN'T BE TREATED AS BOTH AT THE SAME TIME...

So to Mr or Mrs "thing"... I say choose who you are and live with it...

P.S. I won't accept your condescending tone :

Would also recommend reading a few books before building a mental illness argument.

Especially when you have no idea who you're talking to, nor the level and discipline of education that I have...

utterly ridiculous, people dying of malaria and HIV in Africa, economic #storm in the US and Europe, and this attention seeking creep tries to demand this sort of nonsense- should just be laughed at and told to count HIS/HER blessings ffs

OK. This is just getting silly.

While I have some sympathy for the person in question, society operates on a male/female basis, so she just needs to identify herself as female for societal purposes, and stop making a big deal out of the issue.

No-one is forcing her to change the way she thinks about herself.

People need to stop expecting the rest of the population to bend over backwards for their bizarre idiosyncrasies.

Humanity has always included those who do not fit into a gender binary. A great many societies throughout Earth's storied past included the recognition of up to five genders. Many societies actually held special honor
for those who were different than the normal in that way. Native Americans referred to them as "two spirits". Look it up.

Western culture which has come to dominate much of the world does not recognize this. No minority group has as many per capita murders as transgender and similar.

This culture has drawn strict lines in how a person can express themselves and live their life based solely on the configuration of their genitalia. Maybe a boy that was allowed to wear what he wanted, play with barbie dolls and dance in ballet without being called a faggot, face assault, etc would never need to have a surgery. Or reverse the situation for a person born female who's self expression is what is culturally considered to be "masculine".

This concept of the strict gender roles and binary has taken the whole of humanity and divided up who a person can be based on their genitalia. It's very illogical and unrealistic. Activists are trying to change that perception. Gender roles are the creation of society and culture, not true reflections of a whole human being. They are enforced from the start of a person's life as they attempt to mold the into what they should be based on their genital configuration. For many they don't mind and life is fine. Those that aren't have no way to be who they are without persecution in this society. They are treated as mentally ill, as sexual deviants and worse. It is generally acceptable in the culture to act violently and to be derogatory towards these people. The persecution of them is tolerated. How many movies and TV shows include transgender slams, jokes, and negative characterizations? It is constantly present in the popular media.

I really don't buy it, those of you who are so inflamed about the idea of changing language. I don't believe the idea of adjusting the language could be that upsetting. I think you're really upset about something else. But let's look at that for just one moment. Language has always evolved. Language has never been static. If we go by your attitudes, then you should never have had to stop calling blacks 'n-word's and negroes. Why should you have to change what you call someone just to appease someone else?

Nigger and negro were what blacks were called as they were enslaved, as they were burned alive, hung from trees, beaten, segregated, etc. Using those terms is like opening a deep wound.

By the same token those who are transgendered or don't fit into the gender binary false paradigm of current culture have been called faggots, trannies, freaks, etc while they were being beaten, harassed, hated, etc.
But they apparently aren't people. They are monsters who deserve no human respect. You don't have to be friends with them, you don't have to like them, but if you have any kind of human decency and empathy maybe you could step off your majority rules pedestal and try to understand that these people want to be able to live their lives without the violence and hatred that follows them everywhere. So many of you believe these people are mental or deviant in some way, but they are born that way. If they could just be who they are, it probably never would have been a problem. Yet society doesn't want to allow that, it wants to force them to be something they are not; an impossible way for anyone to live. When they try, they face ridicule, violence and hate. Everyone hates the transgendered community. Even a lot of the LGB community has issues with the trans community. T doesn't even really belong in LGBT anyway, because LGB are sexual orientations and T is a gender issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality. It has been scientifically proven that there are female and male-oriented brains and that those differences can be clearly seen in brain scans. Transgendered people have the opposite brain as their physical configuration. It is essentially a birth defect in that regard.

It is necessary for people who are routinely subject to hate, violence and persecution to attempt to humanize themselves to the ignorant, bigoted public through political displays. It is an attempt to change a bigoted, ill-informed and hateful bias ground deep into society's collective consciousness.

You can go on being afraid deviant tricksters trying to lure you home from the bar under false pretenses, and feel uncomfortable and hateful and not like you. But just admit it and quit acting like adjusting your terminology is a monumental inconvenience. You sound like rotten little babies who are getting a lollipop yanked from their mouth. Waaaa! Don't take my hateful words away! Well I actually agree, everyone should be free to feel and say whatever they like. You could rise above that though and show some compassion.

yeah, because "he" and "she" are words I use with such "HATE", don't arrogantly speak for me there fella.


This has nothing to do with a black man being lynched, or indeed a black mob stabbing to death a white man (though you would never use that analogy would you now, it would disturb your comfort zone of victimhood)

In some cases a person is physically neither gender or is physically both genders. This isn't just about a person born male but identifies female or vice-versa. In cases where the person is neither or both the pronouns he/she him/her do not apply and I can't imagine it's all that difficult to refer to a person as their name or as person or as they/their/they're. This person, Ryth is not asking for humanity to invent new words. Nor is it back bracking to insert they as opposed to he/she.

reply to post by Kali74


But aren't you just talking about hermaphrodites ? I haven't seen anything which suggests that Ryth is one.

She was declared female at birth, so must have female physiological characteristics to be identified as such.

Regardless, hermaphrodites have to pick a sex which they identify with for societal purposes, so why should it be any different for a non-hermaphrodite who is confused about their gender identity ?

This is such a non-issue with me I am not even sure why I am dignifying it with a response. I do not care how some people want to label themselves. That is up to them, they could call themselves a tree for all I care.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Ryth was assigned female at birth which suggests gender wasn't apparent but lets pick the closest one for this infant. Ryth grows up identifying with both genders or neither, either way Ryth is not male and is not female. I fail to understand why this is complicated. My name isn't Kali, it's a handle I chose to be identified with on the internet. No one here on this forum seems to be screaming that isn't your real name and I refuse to call you anything other than your real name. No, people online are quite happy to call me Kali. Everyday we see that it isn't difficult at all to address someone as they choose to be addressed.

ETA: Also, I'm pretty sure some hermaphrodites do identify with one gender over the other but I'm also pretty sure some identify with neither but spend years trying to fit one in order to fit into a society or maybe simply in order to protect their person from idiots that take this matter one step further than posting hate online and decide to beat a gender into them.

reply to post by Kali74


Actually, I think you may be right about Ryth being a hermaphrodite. I interpreted it as her being born a female, but not actually feeling either female or male.

However, that doesn't really change the point which I'm making. Hermaphrodites have existed in nature ever since some species mutated into two distinct sexes.

Society is clearly defined along male/female lines, for practical reasons, and hermaphrodites have to fit into these societal norms. Ryth seems to be making an issue out of something that doesn't need to have an issue made out of it. She is free to personally identify herself how she wishes - but please don't expect the rest of society to change because of it.

People shouldn't expect the majority to bend over backwards to accommodate their left-field eccentricities.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


So because someone was born different than the majority they are automatically wrong and have to conform. All because it is too difficult for someone to wrap their tiny brain around a pronoun. "Left-field eccentricities" indeed.

I've seen some of your posts and if I remember correctly you seem a person determined to be accurate...wanting to use correct definitions and such. If this is so, then defining a person who is neither gender or both as a male or female is simply a matter of incorrectness and done merely to be obtuse or a jerk. If someone were to run around calling the moon a planet simply because it is a large roundish object floating around in space, I sense you would call that person an idiot for inaccuracy.

Defining the moon as a planet was perhaps acceptable until we learned more. We have the knowledge now that moons are different roundish objects floating in space than planets, refusing to acknowledge the difference now would be quite ignorant, wouldn't it?

reply to post by Kali74


you are either a man or a woman in this world... if you desire to change which one you are, go ahead... you can't BE BOTH AT ONCE...

It's not something difficult to understand, it's not about definitions or social conformity... it's about COMMON SENSE and LOGIC...

plain and simple...

reply to post by Magnum007


Science says that you are wrong.

In biology, a hermaphrodite is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes.
...
Recently, the word "intersex" has come into preferred usage for humans, since the word "hermaphrodite" is considered to be misleading and stigmatizing,[3] and "scientifically specious and clinically problematic."[4][1]

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Kali74
So because someone was born different than the majority they are automatically wrong and have to conform.

Where on Earth did I suggest that a hermaphrodite or someone with a gender identity crisis is ''wrong'' ?

They only have to conform when it's necessary for practical reasons. Society is divided into males and females - not males, females and ''its''.

Originally posted by Kali74
All because it is too difficult for someone to wrap their tiny brain around a pronoun. "Left-field eccentricities" indeed.

It's not a question of ''wrapping a brain ( of whatever size ) around a pronoun''. It's entirely a question of those with bizarre, marginal idiosyncrasies respecting the rest of society - just as we respect their wishes to feel how they want about themselves.

Nice ad hominem, by the way.

Originally posted by Kali74
I've seen some of your posts and if I remember correctly you seem a person determined to be accurate...wanting to use correct definitions and such. If this is so, then defining a person who is neither gender or both as a male or female is simply a matter of incorrectness and done merely to be obtuse or a jerk. If someone were to run around calling the moon a planet simply because it is a large roundish object floating around in space, I sense you would call that person an idiot for inaccuracy.

Yes, I generally place a lot of importance on accuracy and consistency, but I'm certainly not a captious pedant.

I never suggested that people have to be slotted into a male/female bracket on a physical or personal level. However, to facilitate a smooth and practical society, then a black and white male/female divide is preferable.

I mean, should all public toilet blocks now be broken in to three compartments: men, women and ''gender confused'' ?

Incidentally, I would never call someone an idiot for being inaccurate, or for disagreeing with me. The only time I have ever called someone an idiot is if that person is - in fact - an idiot.

Originally posted by Kali74
Defining the moon as a planet was perhaps acceptable until we learned more. We have the knowledge now that moons are different roundish objects floating in space than planets, refusing to acknowledge the difference now would be quite ignorant, wouldn't it?

Again, differences in gender identity are fine on a personal level. But people shouldn't expect the rest of society to accommodate these niche peculiarities.

I fail to see how someone unfortunate enough to be born as a hermaphrodite, or someone who suffers from a gender identity crisis, can't just carry on as normal in society, without imposing their personal issues upon the rest of us.

When society runs along a clear male/female line, is it really that hard for someone to just adopt one of these identifications for social purposes, rather than making a big thing about the fact that they are ''different'' ?

This Ruth woman has some serious issues. Fact is, she was born with a vag, so she is a woman. I don't do this PC crap, there are two genders - male and female. Ruth is a female.

There are two separate toilets to use. Since Ruth is a female, she should be using the female toilet. If she doesn't want to use the toilet because she feels she is special, she has two options; clamp her legs together and wait till she is at home, or soil herself.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


I really don't see how a few simple pronouns can throw society off kilter. I honestly can't help giggling right now at how silly this is despite how tragic a statement this makes for humanity.

As society grows and encompasses more and more we adapt, it has always been this and will always be this way. There will always be something new to incorporate. And sadly there will always be opposition to new and different, because we never seem to learn to not reject something we don't understand.

I've said all I can think to say, now I'll leave this ignorance disguised as discussion, and hope that those who feel alienated can see that not everyone wishes for you to conform.

Originally posted by Magnum007
I have a problem with this "thing".... you are either a female or a male... you can be one one night and another the other but you choose who you are one at a time... YOU CAN'T BE TREATED AS BOTH AT THE SAME TIME...

I don't believe I was condescending ... but if your entire argument is this, then I honestly don't think you've read up that much on the issues that people face. It's a complex issue and even a lot of gender and trans persons disagree on the specifics of how it should be handled. I don't see you handling those specifics.

Especially when you have no idea who you're talking to, nor the level and discipline of education that I have...

I'm basing my points entirely on the arguments you are presenting which is, as I paraphrase it, "there are men and women as far as I'm concerned so step in line." You're not arguing from a position of well read science, and definitions seem to be murky for you. Unless you're completely understating yourself and you really are the Stephen Hawking of gender biology and psychology.

I may not agree with a part of an argument but I certainly understand it. You've stated that you don't understand it.

Society is clearly defined along male/female lines, for practical reasons, and hermaphrodites have to fit into these societal norms. Ryth seems to be making an issue out of something that doesn't need to have an issue made out of it. She is free to personally identify herself how she wishes - but please don't expect the rest of society to change because of it.

There's only so much a person can conform, and in the 'structure' you put forward Ryth can't actually be strictly honest. Going to the toilet and being physically assaulted is a very real risk for intersex persons. Romantically proposing someone and being ostrisized is a very really risk also. Ryth can't make her appearance or genitals more pleasing to you. It is a great deal more comforting to say to a person ... I'm intersex ... or I'm trans ... rather than, I'm a manly looking woman, please don't laugh, oh and btw it's purely biological so don't discriminate against me please; oh btw can I please please use your toilet?

Originally posted by Magnum007
reply to post by Kali74

 

It's not something difficult to understand, it's not about definitions or social conformity... it's about COMMON SENSE and LOGIC...

plain and simple...

You know when Einstein was researching physics he discovered things that didn't conform to common sense and logic? He fought to find the answer to this the remainder of his life and never did because he didn't like the idea that life could be so 'spooky'. He never did find the answer, and that was physics and maths related.

If you have the answer there are a lot of biologists waiting on it.

I fail to see how someone unfortunate enough to be born as a hermaphrodite, or someone who suffers from a gender identity crisis, can't just carry on as normal in society, without imposing their personal issues upon the rest of us.

You should try living that way for a while. I mean logically you could use the same ideas for physically handicapped people. Legless people are an even smaller percentage than a number of alternate people. Why don't they conform? It's clearly obvious, am not going to patronise. They can't.

A gender person can't look more conforming or have more conforming genitals or ignore something that's a huge part of themselves any more than a person without legs can walk. It shouldn't have to be a dirty little secret, and it shouldn't require a badge of honor. When a person says, oh btw I'm an intersex person it should be Tuesday or Wednesday or some other normal day. It should be no different from someone saying 'I have a tummy ulcer'. It shouldn't require an apology, or have some person saying 'don't put your stomach ulcer in my face! how dare you digest differently from me!'

The discomfort you feel walking into the wrong toilet is most days for an intersex person. Without carrying your birth certificate around like a sick note for permission to step into the bathroom people will be uncomfortable (often in either bathroom). Not to mention the issues it causes with airports and other security stations not finding what they're expecting.

It's just really not as simple as all this black and white stuff that people are throwing around, but am really not going to bother continuing to discuss it here.

There's reasons why things like this aren't put up to a democratic vote, the same reason quantum physics isn't a democracy either.

Originally posted by Magnum007
reply to post by Kali74

 

you are either a man or a woman in this world... if you desire to change which one you are, go ahead... you can't BE BOTH AT ONCE...

It's not something difficult to understand, it's not about definitions or social conformity... it's about COMMON SENSE and LOGIC...

plain and simple...

I beg to differ - this is NOT common sense or LOGIC.

In South Asia you have several intergender/trans identities. For two examples, here they are. Hijra are one example. They are not freaks of nature, but part of the culture. They are not male or female, but third gender.

In Thailand the term is phet thi sam indicated third gender, too.

That's just two. There's plenty more.

Don't worry, you're still a girl. Or a boy. Or alternate. Ryth isn't hurting anyone, so why are there so many offended? Ryth's identity in no way alters yours.

Jokes aside why don't they call 'them' a 'thing'?