No Weapons of Mass Destruction.....

Maku, first let me point out that getting bogged down in procedure for procedure's sake is definite trait of a bureaucrat. Do you work for the government?

There is nothing illegal about the war. The legalities aren't found in the United Nations, although it is interesting that one might think that it is where law is made, but international law and laws of nations was present before the U.N. or its equally useless predecessor, the League of Nations.

Yes, im referring to international law, the law that we all agreed upon

Even the US signed the United Nation's charter. To be clear, im not in favor of law just because "it's the law", but because the law makes sense, and that is to outlaw violence. When dealing with dictators, or terrorizing regimes, there's the security council. And that security council only has an authority if all its members uphold it. What the US did was undermining and ridiculizing the UN and international law. The alternative to the rule of law is the rule of violence. That sounds nice to you because you think you're the biggest and strongest.. but tomorrow you will be , perhaps the fourth biggest and strongest and then you'll become an agrarian province of the world governement. Nobody will be there to hear your whining

Thats why every sensible person or nation should be interested in the rule of law


[Edited on 12-4-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

You just beat your own argument.
The whole UN security council signed up to 1441. When the chips were down most of them didn't back it.
The US and the UK did.
So what role does the UN security council have if it can't even uphold it's own resolutions?

That's all I ask. Give me one good reason why the UN "Security Council" knows what is best for the US. Every country that is on that security council would be begging us for help if it was their country that was in trouble. But because we are the US and everybody thinks we are arrogant and too powerful, they want to drag their feet in helping us out. Why did the security council approve military action 12 years ago when Sadaam was a threat but not now? It's times like this when we have to re-evaluate the worth of a world security council. Maybe it's time for new leadership or something else but in the meantime the US will continue to do whatever it takes to insure our security and way of life. On that note, I'm gone. Have a nice weekend everybody.

LOL. You are too arrogant and too powerful!!!
That's the whole root of the bloody problem. The hope is that the US can show compassion and build a nation that will be a beacon in the Middle East. Then you've got to put your money where your mouths are and deal with the Israeli issue.
In the past, the US has shirked it's responsibilities. It's OK saying it's not your problem, but you only seem to get in other nations affairs when it's in your own interests. Off the top of my head, only Kosovo and Serbia stands out as an example of the US actually doing the right thing, but even then it needed prompting from the UK.
This is all about trust. Gain the trust of the Arab people and you will have won the battle. But it isn't only the Arabs who see the US as untrustworthy or arrogant. Most of the world do.

I'm a big fan of the US. I vacation there at least twice a year. But sometimes even I cringe at some of the mistakes it makes on the international stage.

Mokuhadzushi, WMD are weapons used to commit genocide correct? They are also weapons used in war against combatants correct?

I submit that the government of Iraq applied its military to commit acts of genocide against its people. As a result we have already found WMD used to commit genocide. If what you want is to go by the letter of the law one could easily see this point has a legal value.

What you are suggesting is ludicrous there are soldiers trying to kill our soldiers. Once we stop them from killing our soldiers then we can look for the weapons after, the issue of establishing rule of law.

The fundamental purpose of the UN was to address the matter of Genocide. What is apparent is that the UN has failed in every respect to addressing this issue. It is ridiculous to treat the UN as capable of doing its Job.

When an Institution does not adhere to what is fundamental to its function it is no longer legitimate.

Back on Topic:

Iraq's chief Scientist El Saadi turned himself in to German TV and the US troops. From the interview it is convincingly clear that Iraq posesses no Weapons of Mass Destruction. He turned himself in to "establish the historical truth"

Yup. And we all know how reliable Hussein's people are.

Did you know that there are no coalition forces in Baghdad or at the Saddam international airport? It must be true as the ministry of information released that information a few days ago!

You'll believe anybody except you former ally, won't you?

Originally posted by Leveller
You just beat your own argument.
The whole UN security council signed up to 1441. When the chips were down most of them didn't back it.
The US and the UK did.
So what role does the UN security council have if it can't even uphold it's own resolutions?

leveller, he did more than just beat his own argument, he made it perfectly clear he is ignorant of what "international law" is.

The point has pretty much become moot. It's like arguing with a kid about some of which he has no knowledge. Enjoy the debate, but it seems the other side needs education instead of debate.

Could someone please delete Thomas Crowne's nonsense ?

Why don't we also do away with a justice system too and just ask criminals if they are guilty or not. If they say they didn't do it, who are we to argue? Just kidding of course about the point made that the Iraqi Science advisor claims there are no WMD.

Mokuhadzushi what you have said was nonsense just because you think he sounds convincing does not make is so. Neither does that fact make his comments historically valid you seem to be somewhat Grandiose.

The mans role is as a representative of Saddam interests to the press and to the world. He is paid to seem convincing.

Also its silly to say he turned himself in to German TV

He is in the hands of US troops

Originally posted by Toltec
...As a result we have already found WMD used to commit genocide. If what you want is to go by the letter of the law one could easily see this point has a legal value.

Only if you show what you've found.

What you are suggesting is ludicrous there are soldiers trying to kill our soldiers. Once we stop them from killing our soldiers then we can look for the weapons after, the issue of establishing rule of law.

Fortunately, it's not your mission, but the UN mission to found those. If it were yours, you would put what you'd want to be found. Yes, the Inspectors will be back.

The fundamental purpose of the UN was to address the matter of Genocide. What is apparent is that the UN has failed in every respect to addressing this issue. It is ridiculous to treat the UN as capable of doing its Job.

Even more as USA is constantly undermining and under-funding the UN.

There will always be those who refuse to accept reality, even when they have VX placed under thier upthrust noses to sniff...

Are you talking of Bush and his supporters ? No proof was given for Iraqi WMD, and even now, after blaming the poor inspectors for alledgedly siding with Saddam Hussein, as the US troops have the "inconditional" access to Iraqi installations, they havent found anything...

Who's loosing the grip on reality, dragonrider ?

Again MakodFilu this war which seem to be near to being won by coalition forces is not yet complete, such a response is premature and sophomoric.

How can you sit there and ignore what has to date been found as relevant. The torture chambers, the dead found which is the result of maintaining political control by the Saddam regime?

In light of the obvious problems with Afghanistan and the Ethnic cleansing found with regard to Bosnia. the ways you are talking seem so surreal.

Furthermore this type of behavior in respect to the United States, which does not engage in Genocide. How is it translated in countries where genocide is government policy, by the masses?

Would not the masses of such countries believe then that the US is to blame for why genocide is inherent in their country?

How come the UN inspectors did not discern the politically motivated murder of Iraqi citizens as relevant to the issues. Was it not important enough for them to identify it as a human rights violation?

Mokuhadzushi what will you say when WMD outside the use of the Iraqi military against civilians (actually a legally valid conclusion) are found???

Up to date nothing has been found .. the whole war is a farce.

Iraq was never a security threat to the united states. The "278 chemical warheads found" are the THIRD con attempt (remember number one = HUGE chem weapons cache = GLASS FACTORY, number two: chemical grenades = fog grenades) by Gen. Franks. Will he lie until one of his lies is believed ?

This regime (Bush+policy board) is crazy and is lying every hour, get real!

The farce is in believing all the hostility generated against the US. is not translated by masses in countries where mass murder is applied. As a very real threat the result of something the US approves of.

Therefore in those countries the whole thing gets out of hand and the target of hostilities becomes the US, for something is has nothing to do with. The response of the Iraqi people is much more than clear. The crime being committed at present is by those who perceive the former leaders of Iraq, as having any legitimacy.

As well, the steadfast belief that what has been reported even by Al- Jezera (sp), as the celebration of the Iraqi people (as a reuslt of the Coalition success).

Clear justification for this war is somewhat deluded, or at the very least not supportive of the will if the Iraqi people.




[Edited on 13-4-2003 by Toltec]

Three strange things in the world: loving war more than peace, loving excess more than sufficiency, and loving falsehood more than truth

It is sad that you guys keep saying that Bush is right about lying about Iraq's possession of WMD think of this. What if a stronger counrty came along and said that the US was a threat to their security and attacked us and killed women and children? I can guarantee you guys would be asking the UN to stop it because they had no grounds to attack. Bush's argument on Iraq is inane and they bring up all this "freedom" crap so that you guys would forget all about his former ramblings of why we should attack Iraq. I feel sorry for you guys because you are the ones who are really being decieved. You are Bush's pawns and to be honest if you guys like this war so much go fight it yourself instead of sitting here talking about it and guess what? When we start attacking the whole world for Terrorism and they need more soldiers the are going to reinstate conscription and guess who going to have to go? 18 - 23 year olds and my brothers will fall into that group. I don't want to see them fight for the Army that is going to lead the world into apocalypse or better yet the "New World Order."