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Debunk This.

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posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets

Originally posted by Furbs

Apply Occam's Razor then..

The simplest answer points squarely at terrestrial origin.



The simplest answer to which case?



To all cases.

The simplest answer when dealing with UFOs are always one of four things..

Misidentified naturally occurring phenomena..
Misidentified man made phenomena..
Deceit..
or
Mental Illness..




posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by Argyll
 


I would imagine that empirical evidence would be extremely easy to keep out of every other channel if an organization of unlimited resources and single minded focus were dedicated to that end.

Out of the billions of people on the planet, only a very small handful would even be able or willing to recognize the pattern, fewer still would attempt to record and broadcast it.

And even then, only a small portion would be ready, able and willing to hear the 'truth,' once broadcast.


This is typical in that the appeal to the ALL POWERFUL OZ is first drawn from the holster...In other words, these people who have a VESTED INTEREST (although we have no clue what that might entail) has been EXTREMELY busy in keeping the evidence concealed...BUT WAIT!!! (here comes the flip side of the argument)...


Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by Myendica
 


You may have missed my point.

Literally, there are photos, videos and corroborating evidence by the tonne on both the Interwebs and ATS itself.

I am not interested in rehashing each individual case, but discussing the mathematical improbability of every UFO and Alien encounter being a hoax or 'lantern.'

Trillions to One, by the way.

So, I disagree that their is no 'proof.' There are multiple proofs, yet some will not be sated with ANY proof at all.


WWWWHHHHAAAATTTT!?!?! Either these people with "unlimited resources and single minded focus," are falling down on the job, or you are left holding an empty bag...Honestly, it is an empty bag...



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by jimnuggits
 


Personally I find the ultraterrestrial/extradimensional hypothesis to be the best fit for the evidence, but once again there is no actual proof that such beings exist.


This why we are failing as a species, PROOF.

Because we have being lied to constantly, the only way people will believe is if they have proof. How about you use what's left of your brain properly and decide for yourself.

As the OP says, there's such an overwhelming amount of evidence, just use your brain.

Logicality always wins.. ALWAYS



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Furbs
 


Just as you inability to not understand them is sad. Split Infinity
ps....that doesn't mean I don't have hope!



I would ask for you to clarify, but I honestly do not believe that you have any information worth reading. I am not trying to be a jerk here. I just think that if you have something to add, you should just add it instead of trying to speak in riddles. What does that do for anyone?



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by SativaDub

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by jimnuggits
 


Personally I find the ultraterrestrial/extradimensional hypothesis to be the best fit for the evidence, but once again there is no actual proof that such beings exist.


This why we are failing as a species, PROOF.

Because we have being lied to constantly, the only way people will believe is if they have proof. How about you use what's left of your brain properly and decide for yourself.

As the OP says, there's such an overwhelming amount of evidence, just use your brain.

Logicality always wins.. ALWAYS


LOL..

You hold LOGIC to a high end but decry PROOF??

YOU CANNOT HAVE LOGICAL REASONING WITH PROOF.

Evidence =/= Proof

Without Proof, Logic cannot happen, as Logic is built around Proofs.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by mutatismutandis

Originally posted by humphreysjim
Typical 'believer' nonsense....
...I don't think its so far as believers want the skeptics to say "aliens are testing humans", but more so atleast the admission that at the very least, this many reports for this long must show some kind of phenomenon is occuring. Be it man made or not...


No one can deny that a phenomena is occurring. Even if hoaxes or misidentifications are the most common explanation, that would still count as a phenomena.

That doesn't really help anyone much though, does it?

Can you be more specific about what you want the skeptics to admit to, because no one could deny that UFOs are a 'thing', meaning, there are things that fly that we are unable to identify conclusively given the available evidence.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by SativaDub
 




post by SativaDub
the only way people will believe is if they have proof

No , the only way people will KNOW is if they have solid evidence which constitutes proof , many people believe ( including myself ) in UFO's without solid proof or evidence .



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by Druid42
 


A small, focused group within a resource rich organizational power structure could conceivably keep a crashed disk out of the CNN radar, don't you think?

Hell, when is the last time you saw a story about Fukushima? That was a mere nine months ago, and is completely out of the loop.

What purpose would it serve to tell everyone, even those who don't care?

It would cause pandemonium, a complete breakdown of social mores and traditions, not to mention economic and political anarchy. So, even though it is a reality, don't expect to see Skinny Bob on the Real World any time soon.



And here is another time-worn favorite...the good old, "Letting the cat out-of-the-bag would cause widespread panic and pandemonium!!! SOCIETY WOULD CRUMBLE!!!" Of course, this statement is just as imaginative as the one concerning the vast amounts of proof...After all, if the proof is there, then those people who have experienced the proof have not gone into bats-in-the belfry mode...so what evidence is there for this statement? zero, as in the others...



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by SativaDub
 




post by SativaDub
the only way people will believe is if they have proof

No , the only way people will KNOW is if they have solid evidence which constitutes proof , many people believe ( including myself ) in UFO's without solid proof or evidence .



That is called 'having faith' that Aliens are visiting Earth.

Are you a religious person?



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:50 AM
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Is there a single UFO case where the "alien" hypothesis is more likely than any other non-alien explanation?

Usually the answer is no, but we're told the accumulation of cases makes aliens likely, but I don't think this works. If there is a non-alien explanation that is just as likely as an alien hypothesis for 10,000 cases, this does not add any weight to the alien hypothesis.

If I believe I see a ghost, either I'm seeing things, or perhaps ghosts are real. If I see ghosts every day for a week, that doesn't make it more likely that ghosts exist, it actually makes it more likely that I need to see a doctor. Likewise, if we start reporting more and more instances of UFOs, it does not necessarily make it more likely that UFOs exist, it may just as well mean we need to educate ourselves a little more and improve our ability to recognize natural phenomena, and things like balloons, and terrestrial aircraft, and weather phenomena.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by Furbs


You hold LOGIC to a high end but decry PROOF??

YOU CANNOT HAVE LOGICAL REASONING WITH PROOF.

Evidence =/= Proof

Without Proof, Logic cannot happen, as Logic is built around Proofs.


Sorry but logic can sometimes be class as 'our best guess'

The LHC experiments are based upon what they logically think will happen based on what they know but what has happened in some bits actually through them as they saw results the were not expecting.

So although they used a logical approach it ended up as best guess.

As for proof, there's tons of it ala radar data and many other thing BUT you choose not to trust it which in itself would be slightly illogical considering you ask for proof, get it yet say it's not true.

In turn the proof that is given defies known logic (as in nothing ewe have can fly that fast) but yet its recorded on a reliable machine which then gets debunked for no good reason other than the logic used is WE have nothing that fast.

Maybe its because we don't, but others may...Which in itself is a logical thought...Unless you want to play the false logic loop game forever.
edit on 5-12-2011 by Mclaneinc because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-12-2011 by Mclaneinc because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


I agree. Let us weigh the facts on their own merit and allow the supposition to stop.

If indeed we have friends from Zeta Reticuli, let us find the evidence of that in the facts, not the what ifs.

Another problem we have is that our science is only as good as the tools by which it measures.

We are using sticks, figuratively speaking. Yet, even with our rudimentary tools, we have many confirmations that something is happening.

Something we cannot explain and are not responsible for.


And now we revisit to find the OP claiming the PTB and others REALLY ARE NOT in possession of "unlimited resources." In fact, the PTB only have RUDIMENTARY TOOLS...actually, only "sticks."



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


You do realize the courts consider scientific evidence (if available and pertinent) to be the highest form of evidence?



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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what are we debunking here?
i saw 4 lines of events that happen...no pictures even news stories to debunk.

So i debunk the notion of this thread and 20 flags for goodness as a conspiracy to dumb us down more.


It is the Op's thread and he failed to DAZZLE me into believing.

Burden of proof lies on you op not us..and you failed to show us proof..thus nothing to debunk
50 year old storys that still remain iffy are not proof,,sorry
edit on 5-12-2011 by TheAmused because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by jeichelberg

And now we revisit to find the OP claiming the PTB and others REALLY ARE NOT in possession of "unlimited resources." In fact, the PTB only have RUDIMENTARY TOOLS...actually, only "sticks."


I cannot say what TPTB have or don't but I back the fact that we are presuming our sophisticated tools are the best there is when in fact they ARE mere 'sticks' compared to the sort of tech we really need to explain a lot of things.

Show me a scientist who reckons he does not need better kit and I'll show you that he or she is an amateur.

We may think we are so damn clever but as always, logic dictates there will be someone wiser..



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


best response i have herd in this end of the ATS forum. i too think the ET route is a little too closed minded. a broader form of research needs to be taken with the events that have been taking place even before we knew there was an "outer space" i dont know how to begin to do anything like that my self but i would love to see a group or indivdual of inteligent open minded people look into this subject



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by Furbs


You hold LOGIC to a high end but decry PROOF??

YOU CANNOT HAVE LOGICAL REASONING WITH PROOF.

Evidence =/= Proof

Without Proof, Logic cannot happen, as Logic is built around Proofs.


Sorry but logic can sometimes be class as 'our best guess'

The LHC experiments are based upon what they logically think will happen based on what they know but what has happened in some bits actually through them as they saw results the were not expecting.

So although they used a logical approach it ended up as best guess.

As for proof, there's tons of it ala radar data and many other thing BUT you choose not to trust it which in itself would be slightly illogical considering you ask for proof, get it yet say it's not true.

In turn the proof that is given defies known logic (as in nothing ewe have can fly that fast) but yet its recorded on a reliable machine which then gets debunked for no good reason other than the logic used is WE have nothing that fast.


No. Logic is not a 'guess'. Conjecture is a 'guess'. Conjecture based on Logic is STILL a 'guess', and simply because the guess was wrong, it is not the fault of the logic, which ALWAYS has large lists of proofs under it. The more complex the problem, the larger the lists of proofs it requires.

What is a radar blip 'proof' of, exactly?

Is it proof of aliens? Certainly not.

Is it proof that something was even in the sky? No. Sure, it CAN be EVIDENCE of something in the sky, but it is not PROOF.

Is it proof that electrons were released onto a screen emitting light that bounced off the retina of the radar operator that alerted someone that something may be in the sky? Yes, I will give you that.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by Furbs
 




post by Furbs
That is called 'having faith' that Aliens are visiting Earth. Are you a religious person?

I wouldn't call it blind faith at all as there is plenty of evidence for the existence of Unidentified Flying Objects , but no proof that they are piloted by ET .

No I'm not in the least bit religious , in fact I would say there's more evidence for ET than there is for a God

edit on 5-12-2011 by gortex because: forgot more.... Doh !!



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by Sek82

Though, with all the photographic/video/eyewitness evidence, unfortunately it all does not equate to tangible proof that a scientist can put their hands on, or put under a microscope. Something that we can hold or closely analyze...




Must also keep in mind that most, if not, all scientists would dare to touch on this field for the sake of their lives, credentials and funding. The government, or 'shadow government' would make great haste to make them look as if they just got off the crazy boat. One person who comes to mind is Bob Lazar, and a shame what they did to him for speaking out.

You either keep your mouth shut, or suffer being labeled as a sex offender, murderer, or my favorite - a terrorist.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by TheAmused
what are we debunking here?
i saw 4 lines of events that happen...no pictures even news stories to debunk.

So i debunk the notion of this thread and 20 flags for goodness as a conspiracy to dumb us down more.


It is the Op's thread and he failed to DAZZLE me into believing.

Burden of proof lies on you op not us..and you failed to show us proof..thus nothing to debunk
50 year old storys that still remain iffy are not proof,,sorry
edit on 5-12-2011 by TheAmused because: (no reason given)


You have debunked nothing, all you have done is refuse to believe beyond the realms of what we understand, because you do not understand it by lack or intelligence or bloody mindedness does not make it false to anyone else but you.

Its the simple thought that stops so many becoming better, if you believe you are in the smartest species, the most technically advanced species then you aspire to no better, there's a myriad of stuff we have not a clue about, maybe if we keep looking we will find we were not as clever as we first thought.

We may even evolve and learn...

The proofs out there for to see, if you choose to ignore it then you have debunked nothing..

If you want to debunk it then prove what exactly the proof is, the fact its been checked again and again by some pretty smart people sort of tends to suggest that its a little more than a Chinese lantern or swamp gas with these.



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