Iran shoots down US drone – state TV

Originally posted by Jepic


I think it has to do with the fact that space is outside of the jurisdiction of any country.

That's why we say airspace not space-space.

Again muddy water.

The Exosphere is the highest layer of the atmosphere, and it's lower boundary is 150-300miles altitude.
The upper boundary can reach up to 100,000+ miles altitude.

There are gas particles (air) found throughout the exosphere region. (Although obviously it's very very dispersed).

exosphere
atmosphere

Also importing to consider:

There is no international agreement on the vertical extent of sovereign airspace (the boundary between outer space— which is not subject to national jurisdiction— and national airspace), with suggestions ranging from about 30 km (19 mi) (the extent of the highest aircraft and balloons) to about 160 km (99 mi) (the lowest extent of short-term stable orbits). The Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has established the Kármán line, at an altitude of 100 km (62 mi), as the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and the outer space, while the United States considers anyone who has flown above 50 miles (80 km) to be an astronaut; indeed descending space shuttles have flown closer than 80 km (50 mi) over other nations, such as Canada, without requesting permission first.[1] Nonetheless both the Kármán line and the U.S. definition are merely working benchmarks, without any real legal authority over matters of national sovereignty.

Airspace wiki

So actually there is no clear defined definition. It's all up for interpretation it seems.

reply to post by muzzleflash

Consider this:
Why isn't having spy satellites fly over a nation considered an act of war?

Do you have to be at a specific altitude when it becomes not an act of war? Say 100,000 ft?

Good point. But drones can carry a variety of missiles, bombs, and who knows what else. Look at the death toll in Pakistan in recent days.

Satellites are supposedly limited to recon only (that we know of, could be rail guns or chemical lasers out there for all we know ...).

Given the number of mysterious explosions happening in Iranian bases lately, could there be a connection?

If there was ordnance on that drone, it will be paraded about soon enough. And it will probably be claimed so even if there was none.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Mind you if ANY nation flew as much as a bunch of party balloons over us airspace they would be declaring war on said nation within minutes. Complete with accusations of wmd and terrorists.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by MrWendal

Sending a drone into Iran is an act of war.

This is very muddy water actually.

Consider this:
Why isn't having spy satellites fly over a nation considered an act of war?

Do you have to be at a specific altitude when it becomes not an act of war? Say 100,000 ft?

That is a very fair question to which there is no easy answer.

Speaking for myself only, I believe spying on another country can be considered an act of war. That being said, sending a drone into another countries airspace without asking is a clear violation of that countries sovereignty

reply to post by rubbertramp


What he said very clearly was if you read the article before disclaiming it was false due to the source, you would of seen another source attributed to the story. You then could of checked out the other source and replied accordingly.

Instead you were lazy, did no research and replied negatively to the post without even thinking for a minute to click the link and do some vetting yourself.

Too often people scan a link and discount a story. What kind of truth seeker is that? A joke thats what kind.

reply to post by metaldemon2000


Please don't play the "Iran is innocent" game. I'm sure if Iran did have the capability they'd more than willingly send a drone over U.S. airspace.

U.S. Jet Shoots Down Iranian Drone Over Iraq (Updated)

Iran Running Drone Competitions to Upgrade Unmanned Air Force

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Mind you if ANY nation flew as much as a bunch of party balloons over us airspace they would be declaring war on said nation within minutes. Complete with accusations of wmd and terrorists.

The Soviet Union used to do that all the time with their Bear bombers back in the day and I don't remember us ever declaring war on them, do you?

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
reply to post by metaldemon2000

 

Please don't play the "Iran is innocent" game. I'm sure if Iran did have the capability they'd more than willingly send a drone over U.S. airspace.

U.S. Jet Shoots Down Iranian Drone Over Iraq (Updated)

Iran Running Drone Competitions to Upgrade Unmanned Air Force

Having a propaganda machine like the west has and now merge the fire power of the west, its only natural for Iran to do anything and everything to defend itself. Oh yes...lets wait for the ultimate stupidity that Iran is now targeting European nations with their ICBM's

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Jepic

Wikipedia says they took control of it not shot it down.

You mean they hacked it and landed it?

That would actually be really cool because it would reveal a level of sophistication that no one expected Iran could muster.

But at the same time, it would be playing a good card too soon, and would allow NATO to totally re-devise their tactics and find a way to prevent it from happening again.

Didn't we have a thread on the USA drones being hacked awhile back? If Iran is playing the "yeah, we hacked ya" card, then who is in bed with Iran to do so considering we use Microsoft, hmm? Makes you wonder...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
reply to post by metaldemon2000

 

Please don't play the "Iran is innocent" game. I'm sure if Iran did have the capability they'd more than willingly send a drone over U.S. airspace.

U.S. Jet Shoots Down Iranian Drone Over Iraq (Updated)

Iran Running Drone Competitions to Upgrade Unmanned Air Force

Interesting straw man fallacy there.

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his words or by means of [false] assumptions.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Straw man wiki

So it's ok that we send drones over Iran because in the hypothetical parallel dimension where Iran is a superpower they would do the same to the USA? Interesting.

Originally posted by Jerisa


Didn't we have a thread on the USA drones being hacked awhile back? If Iran is playing the "yeah, we hacked ya" card, then who is in bed with Iran to do so considering we use Microsoft, hmm? Makes you wonder...

Bit of a strech imo. Hacking and messing it up is one thing,
but taking control of it and a soft landing is quite another.

Originally posted by Jerisa

Didn't we have a thread on the USA drones being hacked awhile back? If Iran is playing the "yeah, we hacked ya" card, then who is in bed with Iran to do so considering we use Microsoft, hmm? Makes you wonder...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for the link to that thread, I am sorry that I missed it when you posted it originally. It's totally relevant to this discussion.

Here is a quote from the source article you linked in your OP:

A fleet of U.S. military drones on a Nevada Air Force base has been infected by a keylogger virus that tracks every key and button their pilots press, Wired.com reported Friday -- and top Air Force sources strongly contested. The virus was first noticed by officials at Creech Air Force Base nearly two weeks ago using the base's security system. It logged every keystroke of the pilots in the control room on the base as they remotely flew Predator and Reaper drones on missions over Afghanistan and other battle zones.

Starred and flagged your thread, hopefully more people will take notice of it.

They're just computers, after all. "[The drones] are controlled by standard PCs," Ghosh told FoxNews.com. "None of this should be surprising." The system should be replaced or "re-imaged" with a virus-free, bit-for-bit copy of the data on the drive in order to get rid of the infection, he said.. "If they are connected to a larger network they will be infected again,"

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Mind you if ANY nation flew as much as a bunch of party balloons over us airspace they would be declaring war on said nation within minutes. Complete with accusations of wmd and terrorists.

The Soviet Union used to do that all the time with their Bear bombers back in the day and I don't remember us ever declaring war on them, do you?

edit on 12/4/11 by Ferris.Bueller.II because: (no reason given)

They still do that, it's typical tactics to 'probe air defense systems'.

Here is an article about a Tu-95 entering NATO airspace and being escorted out just this August, and it says it's the fourth such event this year. aero-news.net

Yet again they'e downed a drone...or have they really??

If i were the Iranians, considering the media bashing the world is giving me, i'd have that drone on tv with an angry mob dancing on top and burning flags in a propaganda coup..i'd be screaming "how can the world talk about me with the US illegally entering my airspace" etc etc etc.

Until i see it i still think its just another bit of sabre rattling between the two.

Originally posted by andy1972
Yet again they'e downed a drone...or have they really??

If i were the Iranians, considering the media bashing the world is giving me, i'd have that drone on tv with an angry mob dancing on top and burning flags in a propaganda coup..i'd be screaming "how can the world talk about me with the US illegally entering my airspace" etc etc etc.

Until i see it i still think its just another bit of sabre rattling between the two.

Agreed.

I am willing to wait around 24-48hours for them to retrieve the craft (or debris), and to make video tape of it so that their claims can be taken more seriously. The RQ-170 should be quite difficult to knock down, especially through hacking ecm.

Before I am totally convinced I would also like to see some evidence.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Before I am totally convinced I would also like to see some evidence.

Maybe the US has given them the evidence they need.
Maybe, just maybe, the US sent this drone into Iran painted illuminous pink with a fog horn on board that played "Dixie" every 2 minutes letting everyone know it was there.
Maybe they let them shoot it down, trying to push Iran's hard liners into making the mistake that everyone wants them to make.. giving the US carte blanche to do what they did in Libya.

edit on 4-12-2011 by andy1972 because: (no reason given)