Would you even know you had been tortured?

Most of us have heard about drugs like Sodium Amytal in classic spy movies that are supposed to be used to make people give up secrets against their will under integration. But after reading an article today i found out there is a far more terrifying drug that could be used to extract information without the person even knowing anything has happened.

The drug is called midazolam or Versed. Apparently this drug is sometimes used for invasive medical procedures where the patient has to be awake during the procedure and could be mentally scarred by the experience. Versed's main side effect is that it causes short term amnesia.

It possesses profoundly potent anxiolytic, amnestic, hypnotic, anticonvulsant, skeletal muscle relaxant, and sedative properties. Midazolam has a fast recovery time and is the most commonly used benzodiazepine as a premedication for sedation; less commonly it is used for induction and maintenance of anesthesia.

People experiencing amnesia as a side effect of midazolam are generally unaware their memory is impaired.

Source

Because Versed is very fast acting, it is particularly useful for anesthesia. It can help start the anesthesia process (called anesthesia induction), relieving anxiety and causing memory loss (amnesia). In fact, many people who use Versed for "conscious sedation" during a procedure are awake for the entire procedure but remember nothing, often believing they were "out" the whole time.

Source

So it has been suggested that this drug could be used during torture and the person would have no memory at all about the event. The idea that several sites have put forward is that a government could abduct someone, torture them , extract info and then get them back home. This way as long as they used torture methods that dont leave any marks they wouldn't even know they had given up any information. Information could be obtained without anybody knowing there was any kind of investigation. An almost perfect method for spys.

Versed is particularly diabolical and slightly frightening. Subjects under the influence feel pain and discomfort fully. But when the drug wears off, all memory of the pain and the torture session itself is purged from the mind. The diabolical a heart might see the potential in using versed along with non-marking torture techniques.

Source

More info
Metamemory without the memory: are people aware of midazolam-induced amnesia? PDF

Drugs used for torture

I will have to do some research to find out more about it, but I also (along with what you are pointing out bout these drugs) remember a report on 60 minutes several years ago by Leslie Stahl where neuroscience had methods for actually removing certain painful memories without drugs being used during the torture or painful experience. The debte clearly was about balancing the mental health of the victim, but at what cost and would dealing with the memory be better, if even possible, than removing it, since it may also be very likely that in some inherent and not exactly quantifiable by current physiology and neuroscience's undertanding, the body does not forget, on some level of subconsciousness.

Regardless, both are frightening, and perhaps make more dangerous and brutal torture inevitable because of the plausible deniability it ensures for those torturing.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


Fascinating....though I'd imagine many paranoid schizophrenics will run with this story! They'll find a mark on their body which they don't remember having gotten, and they'll jump to the conclusion that they've been tortured!

Personally, unless you've actually got info worth extracting, I doubt this is something any of us would ever have to worry about....so unless you're a double agent, or secretly a member of some paramilitary group intent on taking over the Government, then It's not something to be all that concerned about in a personal sense.

Now on the other hand....this does bring up certain ethical issues, if it is ever used in this manner. It seems as wrong as any other sort of torture to me, but I can imagine some politician trying to argue "well is it really torture, if they can't remember it?" I could see this becoming a dangerous precedent........But as for now...Unless credible info comes out that this drug has been used in this particular way, it's nothing more than a fascinating and chilling 'What If' scenario...

My daughter was sick. I thought she was dying. The doctors asked my permission to perform a procedure on her - painful and invasive - requiring she remain 'awake' - no pain meds, no tranquilizers. She must be 'lucid' at all times during the course they needed to take to find out what was wrong with her.

(I'm all choked up already - this realllly disturbs me).

I did NOT want the procedure done, but, I wasn't left with any choice, again, I thought she was dying.

The doctors were right up front and told me straight out she would feel pain and the procedure would be extremely uncomfortable but using 'Versed' - she 'Wouldn't remember a thing'.

Against my emotions but to save her life I gave my authorization.

Did she remember anything? The horrific pain? Discomfort? Terror?

NO, she remembered NOTHING. Not one thing.

I wish they'd given me some too cause I still get pretty emotional when I think of what she went through.

I wish I could forget, what she forgot.

peace

reply to post by PhoenixOD


you cannot really erase memories
but you can block access to them
by messing with the appropriate neurotransmitters
the body will still remember

reply to post by PhoenixOD


I'm sure there would be signs on your body that you had been tortured ... hmm ... like broken fingers, black eye and stuff ... ... at least i would be "suspicious" if i went to sleep normal and woke up all beaten up with few fingers missing

p.s.: unless they use some other drug to get info from you ... but well .. it's easier just to beat the crap out of someone to make sure they will not talk about this so no need for drug here

Originally posted by bhornbuckle75
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

Personally, unless you've actually got info worth extracting, I doubt this is something any of us would ever have to worry about....so unless you're a double agent, or secretly a member of some paramilitary group intent on taking over the Government, then It's not something to be all that concerned about in a personal sense.

No, not really.

The Penn State scandal comes to mind. What kind of person are you, if you choose to pursue the "drug and torture" field, in your life? Probably the type of person who wouldn't take a second thought in the ritualistic molestation of battered children.

This kind of drug, or 'method', would be very well applied in this sick field. I think people like that are completely manipulated, and are being used as tools to degrade society from the inside out.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


.. and i'm sure you just gave one hell of an idea to some individuals that work in religious institution .. sad but if it will be used you have more chance to find it there

Originally posted by SyphonX

Originally posted by bhornbuckle75
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

Personally, unless you've actually got info worth extracting, I doubt this is something any of us would ever have to worry about....so unless you're a double agent, or secretly a member of some paramilitary group intent on taking over the Government, then It's not something to be all that concerned about in a personal sense.

No, not really.

The Penn State scandal comes to mind. What kind of person are you, if you choose to pursue the "drug and torture" field, in your life? Probably the type of person who wouldn't take a second thought in the ritualistic molestation of battered children.

This kind of drug, or 'method', would be very well applied in this sick field. I think people like that are completely manipulated, and are being used as tools to degrade society from the inside out.

Again, though this is still a "What If" scenario, until it actually happens, or at the very least some evidence shows that it's happened. I'm not one to believe in 'ritualistic molestation'.....there are more than enough perverts in the world willing to ruin other people's lives to satisfy their desires to account for all the Child Molestation cases.....As far as I know, there has been no real proven case of Ritual Child Molestation....most of the stories surrounding it seems to be media hysteria..

with proper administration of the right drugs there is no need to use torture.

and the subject has no recollection of events after.

Versed does not work on its own. I can testify to that fact.

I am allergic to all opiots, so when I have an invasive medical procedure , they use only versed.
They gave me 10 mg ( usually they give one or two) and I was still trying to pull the endoscope out of my throat. The Dr was swearing at me, and quit the procedure. I remember it all. 10 Mg is the max you can give someone without causing breathing to stop.

Now when they mix it with opiates , it is supposed to induce amnesia. Again , did not work, when the endoscope did not work, they gave me phentanol , as it is fast acting and they can counter the allergic reaction and have it ofm y system. Well, I STILL remember the whole procedure, the difference was I did not care. I remember the conversation with the dr after the tube was out as well. So I do not think this would work that well.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


One of the worst archetype to oppose any kind of singular mind control or manchurian candidate theory is what David Icke calls a "Maverick " and i don't mean Dirk Nowitzki, David Icke explains very correctly that the type of person who can never get locked into a single emotion for too long a time and systematically adapts to occurring situations to never go the way of the handlers/controllers will beat this form of mind control, say what you want about David Icke but this does seem to be a very intelligent way of avoidng potential pitfalls.....

Like you said some people can be controlled or conditioned and have been manchurian candidate types in my opinon...

reply to post by amatrine


That does not sound good. When i was researching info for this thread i found one or two posts from people who said Versed dosent work well for them. But for the most part it seems to work very well for the majority of people. Se silo13's post further up this page.

ET abductees deal with this alot. There are signs, post traumatic stress, sleep disorders, inability to sleep, and lots of other things. Even ET can't dispose of the memories and they can be brought up, so their drugs are not going to be 100% affective. They use them with their assassins too.

reply to post by Unity_99


It sucks that the powers that be can use the alien card to hide what might be a assassin attempt on some kind of non-legal black op and you can't dispute the fact which is the hard part because the numbers suggest that extraterrestrial life is out there and there's been enough abductee stories that can't be forgotten or disproven and that's a fact..

I'm just worried that tech such as project blue beam might get to a stage were we can't tell if ET phenomena is real or not or what if they fake some religious moment, you got to be careful when sorting through all the red tape and i guess the best word would always be use "discernment", sure i might not see it in my life time but at some point blue beam is going to be very deceptive once they iron out all the image problems with it.