Under the Bus

Originally posted by AQuestion

I know this answer, I became a pacifist,it is a trick, the answer is neither.

Nobody is a true pacifist. That is why it fails for something like the draft. How silly it is for you to say so, because that means you would never defend yourself in any given situation.

Try again, because you have an instinct to survive which makes you a non pacifist.

reply to post by supine


I truly believe that one day we will all know the essence of forgiveness in this way, and it will be the key to stopping what we do to each other, even in the sense of wishing to control others, in ways that are not our right nor purview nor was ever intended in our existence. And this, I think, will be the key to our healing and understanding truly how to iive and let live, and also loving without possession, as these are often they key elements that lead us to cause each other pain to begin with.
Thank you for a great topic to make us think about such things, for this is all important.

reply to post by tetra50


Really, if you think about it the way you have addressed this, there would never be a need to toss each other under the bus because there would be no need to.

Your reply was very gracious and well thought out.

Thank You.

reply to post by supine


Dear supine,

Nobody is a true pacifist. That is why it fails for something like the draft. How silly it is for you to say so, because that means you would never defend yourself in any given situation. Try again, because you have an instinct to survive which makes you a non pacifist.

Nope, you are wrong and I have lived it, not my whole life, now and for awhile. Think I am the only one, you better look around a little more and investigate. I didn't say it was easy or fun, I said it was possible. Don't justify your actions by saying that they are the only choice, that is self deception. The moment you start telling yourself that everyone would have done as you did in whatever situation, you are deceiving yourself to justify your actions.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by supine

 

Dear supine,

Nobody is a true pacifist. That is why it fails for something like the draft. How silly it is for you to say so, because that means you would never defend yourself in any given situation. Try again, because you have an instinct to survive which makes you a non pacifist.

Nope, you are wrong and I have lived it, not my whole life, now and for awhile. Think I am the only one, you better look around a little more and investigate. I didn't say it was easy or fun, I said it was possible. Don't justify your actions by saying that they are the only choice, that is self deception. The moment you start telling yourself that everyone would have done as you did in whatever situation, you are deceiving yourself to justify your actions.

Well this is about being under the bus....

See how easy it is to be?

We all have differnt opinons, but truly it's how you handle it, and go on about with your life. My comment really doesn't mean a hill of beans to ya. Congratulations of being under the bus free.

reply to post by supine


Dear supine,

Just to be clear, I never said that I have never been tossed under the bus or that it is not how most people act. I said it was not universal. There is a difference. It happens a lot and we should all be careful about it; but, to say it happens every time is not truthful. I recommend that you research Father Damien and I am not a Catholic. He gave his life for lepers. I recommend that you research Mother Teresa. We can agree with her or disagree with what she believed; but, she put others before herself.

I was lucky enough to meet a woman who had spent over 30 years in Papua New Guinea, she was a missionary and in her 20s she moved to Papua to live with a tribe that did not believe in forgiveness, they didn't even have a word for it. She lived with them because she thought they should know the bible and have a written language. Her reward was that they learned what forgiveness was. There are people who care more about others than themselves, don't believe I am one, it doesn't matter. Tell me that nobody believes others, that is not quite right, that doing what is best is not more important that happiness, than selfishness. I have history to call on.They exist and deserve to be recognized rather than be ignored.

How do I cope? I kill people in my dreams. A lot.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

For once, you and I are in agreement. A star for your post.

To the OP

If I really wanted to toss somebody under a bus, I would. Living where I do and being able to afford the necessary bribes and legal counsel, I would probably get away with it. Fortunately, I am not that sort of person, though lots of people in my lawless and dangerous country are.

You enjoy a rich fantasy life, I see. Bear in mind that all self-indulgence is ultimately lethal; success in life consists of finding the right balance of poison and antidote. Anyone who bears grudges is a fool, for holding them consumes mental energy and resources that could be put to more productive use.

You know what people say: don’t get mad, get even. If a slight or injury means enough to you to cause you distress, take revenge. In real life, not in your fantasies. People who fantasize about injuring others without actually doing anything about it are just losers, aren’t they? Impotent in real life, they become Terminators in their dreams. What a sorry lot they must be.

Best of all, of course, is not to let other people bother you so much.

It all depends upon the person for me.

If the person did something and it wasn't intentional then yea I can forgive them. If the action was intentional then, no, I'm not going to forgive them. Why should I, or anyone for that matter, forgive someone when they knowingly set out to do something to someone that would have lasting permanent consequences? What really gets me are the people that do things like this and they try to justify their actions as a "joke".

I'm currently going through a situation like that now. They know what they did was wrong, yet after my repeated requests to stop they didn't. So now I'm going after them legally. It isn't about revenge it's about getting what is owed to me. They say the best revenge is success, and I agree, that is why making them cut me a check for a few million dollars is the best revenge.

I know they don't want me to go this route because it will effectively turn the tables and they will end up in the position that I'm currently in. To that I say oh well. You reap what you sow. There are situations for forgiveness and then there are situations for revenge. If you can't deal with the consequences of your actions because it has grown outside of your control then you shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Originally posted by proof-would-be-good
reply to post by supine

 

I was sold that "package" of saying "I forgive you,” until I realized that it simply let the other person off the hook and I was left hurting from what was done. And while we are spending our energies "forgiving,” the culprits continue to repeat their actions on others. So what have they learned? Nothing.

What does it matter if they've learned anything? What matters is if you've taken that incident and improved yourself through transcending its impact on your psyche. Most people never learn anything that matters, but that doesn't mean that you are prohibited from learning and becoming stronger as you learn.

This life is pretty brief (it certainly will seem so once you've crossed the 50 year line), and the triumphs that others have over you won't survive intact once death has cleared the board - not for them anyway. If you're actually able to achieve a full release from the oppression that these triumph over you are meant to inflict upon you long after each conflict itself had ended, then you might just get to win the true war that contained all of those small skirmishes; the war between your best and worst self for ultimate control of your permanent expression.

In the end, it comes down to whether you want to win each battle or win the war, and it takes a lot of strength to accept losses here and there, even when those losses actually serve a larger success strategy. The best way I know of is to identify the battles, and never confuse them with the true war you're engaged in. Winning battles is fun, but winning the war itself has a satisfying calm that few of us will get to feel in the end. A good rule of thumb is to know that the battles are fought with others, but the war itself is between the weakest, most repugnant version of what you can ever become as a human being and what exists as the best, most powerful you - with the circumstances of your life, and how you deal with them, the real theater of combat. That ugly version of you is really good at amplifying the relative significance of each small loss; making them insufferable if not directly countered with (at the very least) pettiness and bits of revenge. It ends up winning the war in most of us.

Then again, the only real requirement is that each of us craft an inimitable, fully identified, self. So do what you wish. You'll have plenty of time to make do with what you've created of yourself.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by NewAgeMan

You know what people say: don’t get mad, get even. If a slight or injury means enough to you to cause you distress, take revenge. In real life, not in your fantasies. People who fantasize about injuring others without actually doing anything about it are just losers, aren’t they? Impotent in real life, they become Terminators in their dreams. What a sorry lot they must be.

On the contrary, murdering people in your dreams usually means you are wanting to change some aspect of the "victim" in yourself. My blue crab man, for example, is me wanting to get rid of my life-long depressive tendencies and easily-irked irritability. I am taking steps to change myself and the way I have always thought. Nothing "sorry" about that, other than I'm sorry I wasn't strong enough to do so when I was younger.

I can agree, though, that it doesn't make sense to walk around seething and devising cruel ways of torturing people you hate. Seriously, it's a waste of time. The easier solution: forget about it. People are people, you can't change them... but you can always change yourself.

Best of all, of course, is not to let other people bother you so much.

Definitely agree, we all should live our lives to be happy and happiness is not wasting time hating other people for their faults.

Originally posted by supine

Sometimes we are wrong. I guess it depends on the situation. Being bull headed has it's place.

Sometimes it's ok to admit you are wrong, even if you have beliefs otherwise. We can all be humbled.

wrong is objective not subjective, any realization mean could be wrong, this is never an issue since right is what is objective, that is how the concept of wrong exist since it cant exist, so truth always is the exclusive reason of all and any that is

subjects are never wrong so they can b evil like what u mean i guess, liars

humility is to evil, sorry for that

reply to post by AQuestion


altruism is right where it is an expression of objective value

objective definition is else all, from one freedom out of all

so when altruism mean really others and not objective fact or cause or reason it becomes subjective so the one itself only life of evil lies business or of free liar business market alone, god and satan

You have the power to forgive someone for murdering your child. You don't get many chances in life to experience forgiveness form where it is given. If straightout forgiveness is to hoaky for you ? Then you refuse
a whole part of life at the same time. Revenge is easy apple pie. Forgiveness is divine.

reply to post by randyvs


What is the point of forgiving someone when they intentionally hurt you? They are not going to stop their behavior they aren't going to fix what they broke. What is the point?

Why is it when people hurt you, they want the victim to forgive the perpetrator?

There comes a point where all you leave a person is the option to a legal fight.

reply to post by Timing

This brings up an essential point to it: is forgiveness, in fact, further enabling those who hurt others to continue on with their same behavior, and here you make a good point. But I think what else is being said by several others is what the lack of forgiveness costs you, while who hurt you will continue being themselves regardless....and there is some small, if unlikely, chance within that crux that your act of forgiving might speak to the one who hurt you enough to have some impact. If they are a sociopath, then no, it won't.
But the other point to think about, perhaps, is that if we believe in principles of karma and reincarnation, and even quantum entanglement, this forgiving and letting go concept can be destructive over a very long period, and keep an entanglement going because it represents an unresolved conflict, which will continue to haunt your soul and all it's lives, whether the face of your perpetrator, or even your face and identity, change---until there is a resolution of the conflict.

It's rather convenient that this post is here.

Lately I have been dealing with my self and trying to expand my consciousness. The one thing I am having the most trouble with is: stubbornness or bullheadedness. However, now that I am aware of it I can start to observe myself for falling into the same trap I always do. Most of the time I don't even want to be happy because it would mean accepting my situation or not getting the sympathy I think I deserve. I want to be angry, mad, upset, depressed. I want the people who have "wronged" me to see the pain they caused me and hopefully feel it like I do... but I know they never will. That being said, that is how I have always been. So, now I am being stubborn about my stubborn tendencies. I could go on living my entire life like that but what would I learn? It certainly wouldn't change me or allow my personality to grow. I would just continue being the same old me who falls victim to suffering that I create for myself.

Negativity begets negativity.

Still, even though I am stubborn I have already became aware of it and haven't planted the seeds in my mind to allow the flower of forgiveness to grow. It will still probably take me a long time, but I can forgive myself for that. *smirk*

I'm not saying you should stop feeling these emotions when someone upsets you, that is a completely normal response, but it is a little too normal. Try to instill a thought in your head every now and again that will allow you to observe yourself during these hard times. Is this how you have always acted? Does this truly solve something or change the outcome? Could I receive a different result from being happy even if I truly don't want to be?

In the end, and as much as my stubbornness hates it, I have found that the outcome is generally better and I even feel better about myself when I just let go of things, forgive, and make up.

I hate universes and all in it, so the day i have enough power I will destroy all universes and god effectively becoming the universes destroyer.

You are not obligated to forgive unless you are asked and the person shows remorse. That is scriptural.

I don't understand.

How is me not forgiving the people that wronged me negatively affecting me? Nobody has directly contacted me and said they were sorry about what they have done, so what benefit is it that I get from forgiving them? They obviously aren't sorry just by the lack of action no matter how small.

It's simple. In life we need money to go live our lives. They have put me in a position where I am unable to earn for myself. Sure I might be mad at them, but not to the point where I dwell on the situation. The fact of the matter is the only way I can move on with my life is to obtain a significant amount of money to get out of debt and start my own business.

This is about survival. By them not showing remorse for their actions or to fix the situation they are showing they are not sorry, but are getting the results they intended.

If they didn't want this to happen then they shouldn't have done it.