The Bible; the Worlds best selling novel?

The Bible has always interested me, coming from a strong Roman Catholic family aspects of it has always been in my life, my grandmother used to read me little passages and what not when I was a kid, but as I've gotten older, it seems as if to me, the whole thing is just a tool for capitalism and fear.

Just so you know, I don't hate religion, it was the inspiration for some of the greatest evens and buildings in history, but it also accounts for a lot of the bloodshed and a lot of the fear and hate which still remains today, so has it gone to far?

The Bible has been knocking about for years now, but when the first pages where being written, it was more than just a few years. Imagine all the strange gods tribes people had, all the weird and wonderful beliefs they had. Beliefs evolve, break away, differ and mould people. So I pose the question, if people believed dragons and woodwose existed only 1000 years ago, what abstract things were they coming up before this? They could have been the ramblings of a drunkard?

Proof is a problem I've always struggled with. If God was proven to be a figment of the imagination of some ancient novelist, all this belief and faith that people had, what was it? The power of suggestion? I always get this vibe around strong religious communities, its a strange one. People say "God talks to me", it is "Allah's will for me to walk this path" and so on and so forth. Has the divine almighty really ever done anything to influence them? That brings me back to this vibe, individually saying "god reached out to me" is fine, everyone in a Church believes you, but imagine the day, if it ever happens, that God is proven to be an abstract tangent of human dependence, everyone then knows everyone else was lying, or everyone else was crazy. It's a strange process, its the perfect lie, no one in your community will challenge you, possibly because they had the same misinterpretation, lie or idea in their head. It benefits people to fit in after all, human dependence and all that. Is the Pope, and everyone before him just in it for the money and power? It would be tempting wouldn't it. The amount of power Catholicism obtained in the past was extreme.

nov·el/ˈnävəl/ Noun: A fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism.

Just to finish up on, we write novels all the time right, we loose ourselves in books even with today's television sets and gaming systems. We love stories, and I'm sorry, someone try and explain to me why these series of books have to be taken literally. We are living in an age now, where we have to start really assessing what has done us more good, Science or Religion.

Thanks for reading.

yes .

reply to post by VraxUK


So everyone should drop religion and follow science ? Or should we drop our beliefs and follow science ?

What if science leads us right back to the belief we dropped in the first place ?

Religion is not what the Creator intended when He created everything. Religion is man-made reference to a spiritual experience.

Too bad you don't seemed to have had such an experience with our Creator-- whose plan was to create man to commune with him. Even going so far as to plan an eventual kinship with us. I am religious only in the aspect that we use the term to describe an experience with some higher being.

I think all people one day will come to knowledge of the Creator.

The Bible has a lot of stuff in it that are facts and on top of that many other religions say the same thing as the Bible in many ways so i don't think its being used as a tool.

reply to post by VraxUK


The thing is no matter what happens there will always be a percentage of the population who will believe in 'god' and the bible. Same as there will be some of us who think it's a great book but that is all it is a novel.

Look back at ancient cultures those people believed in their god(s) like Zeus, Hades, Thor, Cthulhu I think in two maybe three thousand years people will look back at us and laugh at what we believe to be god.

I think it is a little bit of everything, like life in general.. There are truths, there are myths, some is right some is wrong... Much I am sure has been re-done or put out of context by man as far as the bible, but I think there is "some" distorted truth in it. Seems each myth or religion leads back to one source. That is what I am trying to find. I guess you could call it "the bottom of it".


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Originally posted by Viking9019
The Bible has a lot of stuff in it that are facts and on top of that many other religions say the same thing as the Bible in many ways so i don't think its being used as a tool.

en.wikipedia.org...

Another example: The Holy Roman Empire killing thousands pagans in Lithuania etc. It was a tool to envoke fear, and support was it not?

reply to post by VraxUK


I agree and have a similar belief to what is in the OP, The Bible sure is the worlds best selling 'novel' as it's clearly either pure fiction or re-translated so many times the message and history is corrupt and incorrect.

Taking something as 'gospel' means to take something as 'true' however the gospels in the bible are anything but, there are blatant contradictions, for example which gospel account is true about what Judas did, as only one can be true which means the other (at least) is a lie.

I don't think it was one mans fantasy, I think it was put together by people in power as a means of control, and back in history churches were the law of the land and they read what was in a bible to the people, not the people themselves.

reply to post by lifttheveil


I'd also agree with that, people had no idea what was possible back then, stories of men walking on water and elemental forces such as thunder and rain occurring during the crucifixion could probably seem feasible back then.

I know damn well that, that's a pointless miracle.

Originally posted by VraxUK
The Bible has always interested me, coming from a strong Roman Catholic family aspects of it has always been in my life, my grandmother used to read me little passages and what not when I was a kid, but as I've gotten older, it seems as if to me, the whole thing is just a tool for capitalism and fear.

Capitalism? Really? Are you familiar with the word "anachronism?"

Are you familiar with "Blessed are the poor?"

You read "fear" and not "hope?"

Just so you know, I don't hate religion, it was the inspiration for some of the greatest evens and buildings in history, but it also accounts for a lot of the bloodshed and a lot of the fear and hate which still remains today, so has it gone to far?

And you could say the same for capitalism and communism and socialism, and human society in general-- so why focus on Religion as if it is the source? Why not focus on humanity as it being the source, since we see that humans do these things without respect to the spiritual views?

The Bible has been knocking about for years now, but when the first pages where being written, it was more than just a few years. Imagine all the strange gods tribes people had, all the weird and wonderful beliefs they had. Beliefs evolve, break away, differ and mould people. So I pose the question, if people believed dragons and woodwose existed only 1000 years ago, what abstract things were they coming up before this? They could have been the ramblings of a drunkard?

A subtle ad hominem, but not so subtle as to fly over my head. So, let me turn that question around so you get to take it head on:

Were you drunk when you wrote that? I mean, that could explain the OP and its title, couldn't it?

Proof is a problem I've always struggled with. If God was proven to be a figment of the imagination of some ancient novelist...

That you believe the Bible was written by a single person strongly suggests you are intellectually unprepared for a reasonable discussion-- so I take it your OP is but a rant.

... all this belief and faith that people had, what was it? The power of suggestion?

You mean like asking a question with an answer already provided in it? As you just did. You are not asking what causes it, you are presenting an argument that others are more complaint and open to suggestion than you are, and then attempting to exploit that.

There is an answer-- but you are not ready for it.

I always get this vibe around strong religious communities, its a strange one. People say "God talks to me", it is "Allah's will for me to walk this path" and so on and so forth. Has the divine almighty really ever done anything to influence them?

In some cases, Yes. That you seem to have lacked, so far in your life, such an experience, is hardly a claim in which to presume on the experiences of others.

Just as there are stupid liberals and stupid conservatives, there are also brilliant liberals and brilliant conservatives. You assume religious people persons are stupid? That is not going to work out well for you.

Here is an idea-- stop listening to stupid religious persons, and start listening to persons smarter than you who have different ideas.

It is not fair for me to characterize all atheists as the most intellectually challenged-- and I have known some atheists who are as dumb as a bag of hammers, so the reasons why they are atheists not worth hearing... BUT the smart atheist presents a challenge with valid perceptions.

So, if you want to bash religious persons-- you will do well to at least be smart enough to know what is going on inside of you, personally, that brings out the anger which motivates you to want to bash them. Because a bright religious person and a bright non-religious is going to read your post and know more about you than you know about religion.

That brings me back to this vibe, individually saying "god reached out to me" is fine, everyone in a Church believes you, but imagine the day, if it ever happens, that God is proven to be an abstract tangent of human dependence, everyone then knows everyone else was lying, or everyone else was crazy.

LOGIC 101 class: You cannot prove the non-existence.

Also, the Bible, even if nothing but a novel, is hardly the start of the belief in God.

We love stories, and I'm sorry, someone try and explain to me why these series of books have to be taken literally. We are living in an age now, where we have to start really assessing what has done us more good, Science or Religion.

No. We love only good stories-- stories which describe the human experience.

Science and Religion make a very good marriage-- both seek truth. Only the ignorant ignore one or both

Sorry but you really should edit the title - "The Bible: the World's Best Selling FICTION Novel?"
2nd

say what you will but I assure you Jesus being raised from the dead is an absolute fact and the scriptures witness to the same

reply to post by Frira


The pure fact you referred to my actions as "bashing religious persons" is completely wrong, if you took it the wrong way I do apologise. A few things I'd like to point out on my behalf:

1) I know the bible wasn't written by an "ancient novelist", I was merely making a point, you say it was written by many people, perhaps you could tell me as I guess you know the authors very well, and you could vouch for their credibility. You know what they say, deny ignorance.

2) You seemed to have taken this in a very defensive matter, most Christians, Muslims and who ever else I know, would rather than being negative, share their point of view in a positive way. Perhaps you could try and enlighten me.

3) I was clearly stating an opinion, take it in which ever way you would like but please don't take it badly. Even if my knowledge isn't as vast as yours on the subject, I am not dumb, just not informed, so please remember to maintain your dignity, decorum and manners my friend.


In addition to your Logic 101 lesson, which I thoroughly..... found depressing. I'll try and give you my take on logic 101; until its proved, its unproven. If it can't be proven, no one knows for sure. Which means there is no credibility. Being unprovable leaves it as a concept, loved in many cases, enjoyable, aesthetically pleasing, but not quite there in terms of reality.

As for religious experiences, how about you share some of them with us?

Originally posted by VraxUK
reply to post by Frira

 

The pure fact you referred to my actions as "bashing religious persons" is completely wrong, if you took it the wrong way I do apologise. A few things I'd like to point out on my behalf:

Great. But I provided some groundwork for discussion in that post, yet the "bashing" tone I pointed out, is all you addressed in your reply. And I gave cause for my taking your intent as the tone implied.

1) I know the bible wasn't written by an "ancient novelist", I was merely making a point, you say it was written by many people, perhaps you could tell me as I guess you know the authors very well, and you could vouch for their credibility. You know what they say, deny ignorance.

Your point was made on a false premise.

There are many articles available to address the authorship, source criticism, and canonization of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. That question was not, however, the apparent thrust of your post.

So when you take many authors from a wide-spread community that is both ethnically and spiritually connected which tell stories that articulate the shared spiritual and religious experiences and history of that people, the "why we believe what we believe and why we do what we do" is hard to remove from it using your premise.

An example: Star Wars is a powerful story of our time. Everyone knows it is fiction, but find much truth in what it tells by analogy of government, family, religion, spiritual power, war, and so on.

On the other hand: World War II is a powerful story of our time-- and everyone knows it is real. Part of the World War II narrative, from various sources, includes some of the same truths mentioned above, which we take as analogs to our own experiences. See: Implausible World War II which, I think, makes your point in reverse.

2) You seemed to have taken this in a very defensive matter, most Christians, Muslims and who ever else I know, would rather than being negative, share their point of view in a positive way. Perhaps you could try and enlighten me.

Each person is different.

* For one, it may be philosophical: "Why do we appreciate beauty, music, mathematics,, etc.?"
* For another it may be personal and intimate: A vision, inspired knowledge, interpreting a spoken language never learned, and so on.
* For others it may be finding explanation: Wisdom, hope, love, valor, justice, and all the altruisms known to man.
* Still others look for meaning and purpose in interpersonal relations (why people do what they do and want what they want in others), suffering, dying, existence, grief, ecstasy, and such.
* For a few, religious expression is simply an acknowledgment of what is perceived inwardly, that others do not see.

3) I was clearly stating an opinion, take it in which ever way you would like but please don't take it badly. Even if my knowledge isn't as vast as yours on the subject, I am not dumb, just not informed, so please remember to maintain your dignity, decorum and manners my friend.

From the OP:

* "the whole thing is just a tool for capitalism and fear. "
* "it also accounts for a lot of the bloodshed and a lot of the fear and hate "
* "an abstract tangent of human dependence"
* "lie" ... "crazy" ... "misinterpretation"
* "just in it for the money and power"

Were you really presuming to write to me about dignity, decorum and manners?

In addition to your Logic 101 lesson, which I thoroughly..... found depressing. I'll try and give you my take on logic 101; until its proved, its unproven. If it can't be proven, no one knows for sure. Which means there is no credibility. Being unprovable leaves it as a concept, loved in many cases, enjoyable, aesthetically pleasing, but not quite there in terms of reality.

As for religious experiences, how about you share some of them with us?

My religious experiences are not for the purpose of persuading others. They do serve as wisdom within a community of others with like experiences. One particular use of my experience is that I dare not deny that of others-- because I know what I know and it is what it is.

Sam Houston, before becoming the hero of Texas, was leaving Tennessee after a terrible and humiliating end of his marriage and political career. He stood at the rail of a steamboat contemplating suicide. An eagle swooped down over his head at that moment and then soared up into the setting sun, crying out. From his memoirs we know that, immediately, Sam Houston knew-- KNEW-- that his fulfilled destiny lay in the West. I understand that. My soul knows that language-- has always known that language.

reply to post by VraxUK


I think I understand how you feel. Intellectually I have a hard time with Christianity. Even St. Paul said that Christianity is foolishness to the Greeks. On the other hand, I grew up in a Christian family so I know I would be more peaceful and happy as a Christian than I would as a Buddhist - even though Buddhism seems more sensible. I would like to go to church, but I don't want to be around those gung-ho Christians that apparently experience God in dramatic ways - it's like rubbing salt in my wounds.