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Where does the bible explicitly describe an afterlife?

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posted on Dec, 11 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


I don't want to take this off topic to much further but you can read why I beleive what I do in this thread of mine from 2009.
www.abovetopsecret.com...




posted on Dec, 11 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by lightseeker
 


I don't want to take this off topic to much further but you can read why I beleive what I do in this thread of mine from 2009.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



You made some interesting points in that thread, but I think you might be missing something. My personal understanding of the use of "Hades", "Sheol", "Gehenna", and "Tartarus" throughout the Bible was to avoid confusion for the people Jesus was speaking to at the time. Jesus had enough trouble already with people not understanding what he was trying to say. I don't see how it would have helped one bit to create new words for what we now call Hell. Instead he used words that the people would have been more familiar with. Same way he used parables. So that people could relate to what he was preaching. Imagine trying to explain how supercomputers work to them. That'd be next to impossible. But Heaven and Hell are infinitely more complicated than supercomputers aren't they? Almost 2000 years later, we're still arguing over Heaven and Hell. We STILL don't completely understand it. And we probably won't until we see Heaven and Hell for ourselves.




Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
And to the OP point of an afterlife, the correct and vital knowledge is there is no physical place God is allowing his creation to burn in pain forever, that is not love, it is a pagan ideology. God will end a souls life if it chooses to be rebellious, but he won't allow it to be tortured forever because it used it's free will to rebel. Common fatherly feelings of imperfect humans wouldn't even do that, would you stick your child in a oven? We are made in God's image we have his sense of justice, if we wouldn't do it, neither would he.


edit on 10-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)


If you were in God's place, would you allow Satan to take away everything from Job? His children, his servants, his possessions, everything, and drive him to the point where he would BEG for death? Or allow your chosen people to be enslaved (more than once) for years at a time? Or make them wander aimlessly in the desert for 40 years until they begin to forsake you? I doubt it. I don't understand why God would allow such things. Fortunately for me, I don't have to. Isaiah 55:8-9,

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. "

God specifically TOLD US that we wouldn't understand or agree with everything he does. And your opinion of how much we will understand is much higher than my own. I hope we can agree that God knows better than you or I do. I believe that in time everything God does will make sense to us. But not right now. God will not allow sin in His presence. Rebelling against Him is sin, and he won't tolerate it.

My recommendation to you is: learn your limits. It's GREAT that you've clearly spent a great deal of time thinking on this, and I hope praying on it. But know when you've gone in over your head and aren't meant to understand something. This is a problem I myself have faced, and I can tell you it's not easy. I've had to overcome pride and stubbornness to admit that I can't understand parts of God's will. But if you've prayed about this, and if God has told that you've posted is what He wants, then ignore every word I'm posting. But before you ignore this or refute this, I ask you to pray. I'll be praying for you.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lightseeker
 



Good work here Sir, reading your responses and you're nailing it.


Amen to that!! You are doing fantastic lightseeker. Keep it up!!



posted on Dec, 11 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 


Very well stated, EPH612; you hit it out of the park, both with your words and with your compassion and empathy. Thank you as well for the words of encouragement, They are much needed and very much appreciated. God's blessings on you and yours this Christmas Season.



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by EPH612
 


I get your points, now try to understand mine, every example you posted, every test, every persecution, every hardship endured, had one thing in common they came to an end. Yes God allows pain and suffering, look what he allowed his own son to go through, look what he allowed Job to go through. And Joseph, if you study his life, he had a very rough time before being blessed. Here is the difference all these problems and persecutions, and pain ended.
Hell as defined by Christendom has no end, and that is not God's love. There are bigger issues going on, testing people, if they fail the tests, God doesn't allow them to be tortured forever.
Mediate on the difference of time limited pain and suffering God allows to prove Satan a liar, verses eternal torment, there is huge difference.

I will never understand why people in Christendom don't think eternal death and non-existence isn't a strong enough punishment for disobeying God, it's like they want people to be tortured forever, it's sadistic really.
edit on 12-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


I understand your points and agree that it doesn't make sense. Where we differ is that I feel it isn't meant to. Not to us, not right now.
edit on 12/12/11 by EPH612 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


I understand your points and agree that it doesn't make sense. Where we differ is that I feel it isn't meant to. Not to us, not right now.


Actually we are, Daniel 12:4


But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.


And it means our life too.
John 17:3

And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


And at the exact moment of Judgement in the future we must get it right, now is our chance to develop our spirituality beyond the old dogma of the Roman Catholic church and it's corrupted clergy of bygone centuries.
John 4: 23&24

A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers. 24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).


And the truth is there is no eternal burning place of torment, every scripture used to support the hellfire doctrine is either being used out of context as literal when it is symbolic, or a simple misunderstanding of the original Greek or Hebrew words. I have studied this in great detail for over 30 years, and let me tell you for many it is an amazing epiphany for people who discover Hellfire doesn't exist, through pray and mediation of the scriptures.
And it greatly increases people respect for God and his divine justice.


edit on 12-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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So apparently when Jesus used terms like "eternal", "without ceasing", and "everlasting" He was off His rocker?



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Actually we are, Daniel 12:4


But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.


Rats. I'm wrong. I hate being wrong.



And it means our life too.
John 17:3

And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


And at the exact moment of Judgement in the future we must get it right, now is our chance to develop our spirituality beyond the old dogma of the Roman Catholic church and it's corrupted clergy of bygone centuries.
John 4: 23&24

A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers. 24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).


And the truth is there is no eternal burning place of torment, every scripture used to support the hellfire doctrine is either being used out of context as literal when it is symbolic, or a simple misunderstanding of the original Greek or Hebrew words. I have studied this in great detail for over 30 years, and let me tell you for many it is an amazing epiphany for people who discover Hellfire doesn't exist, through pray and mediation of the scriptures.
And it greatly increases people respect for God and his divine justice.


edit on 12-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)


Once again I've read your thread on understanding the original Greek and Hebrew words, and once again it makes sense. However, exactly HOW would Jesus have explained Hell to the people? It still seems more likely that, rather than create a new term for the afterlife (specifically what we now call Hell), he used the terms that they were familiar with. If he had used a different term, nobody would have understood what he was talking about. They would It's now that we understand that Hades/Sheol etc. do not exist as according to the original Greek legends and so forth. Today we use the term "Hell". Because now we understand Hell is different than Hades or Sheol or the others. I think that's simply what Jesus used because they would understand it. And, if Hell doesn't exist, then what is your understanding of Luke 16, 19-31? I'm assuming you have an interpretation for it. I'm just curious what it is.



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 


Look at the context of parables and hyperbole's Jesus was teaching with, the key to understanding the bible is through learning through study and mediation with Holy Spirit what is literal and what is symbolic, this applies in the gospels as much as it does in the book of Revelation.

Parable

A parable is a succinct story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive principles, or lessons, or (sometimes) a normative principle. It differs from a fable in that fables use animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as characters, while parables generally feature human characters. It is a type of analogy.

Hyperbole

is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.


The Rich Man and Lazarus—What Is the Lesson?

Jesus Christ often taught a lesson by telling a story. Here is how Jesus began one famous story: “A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.”
So Jesus simply said a certain man was rich, dressed expensively and ate well, while Lazarus was hungry, covered with ulcers and licked by dogs. Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” Note why, from what Jesus next says:
“Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’”—Luke 16:19-24.

As you can see, Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34; John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water!

Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.
This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, “they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears.” They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57.

So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.

Just like we don't take Jesus instruction of eating his flesh and drinking his blood literally from scripture, neither do we take this parable literally. Symbolism is key in so many area's of the bible.

edit on 12-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 

Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.
I think this is a smart approach to understanding things like this. There are a lot of things you can't just take literally.
You mentioned Revelation and I think that needs to be approached the same way where it is very narcissistic in my opinion to imagine that it was written only for the use of one single generation out of hundreds.



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 



And, if Hell doesn't exist, then what is your understanding of Luke 16, 19-31?



I believe this is an analogy that Jesus used to further explain what he meant when he said "the first will come last, and the last will be first"

The rich man spent his life gathering material riches... and as we know a rich man rarely can "enter the gates of heaven"...

Many "alternative" texts discribe the soul being "thrust" into another body after the death of the body...

Including

Book of Thomas the Contender

Secret Book of John

And one of my Favorites... Pistis Sophia.. which discribes the death of a good man...


The Pistis Sophia tells us that the soul of the good man who has not found the mysteries will receive "a cup filled with thoughts and wisdom." This will allow the soul to remember its divine origin and so to pursue the "mysteries of the Light" until it finds them and is able to "inherit the Light forever."


and the death of a "bad" man...


The text explains differences in fate as the effects of past-life actions. A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.


Which is exactly what is meant when he said "the first will be last, and the last will be first"... In my humble opinion.

Hell, or "Gehenna" is the best discription of the selfish being brought down from their "high horse" in the next life...

Also my inspiration for creating this thread...

Your own hell




posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by akiros
I like how everyone ignored my simple explanation and went on to ramble incessant bull#.

I think that heaven and hell are meant to be metaphorical states of consciousness.
2nd line


You are the winner!!!!!!!

When asked how a wife who had many husbands who died would be with them in heaven, Jesus replied
THERE WOULD BE NO SPOUSES IN HEAVEN.
If there are no spouses then there would be no children,relatives,pets,friends or others to accompany
one in heaven.
Heaven is simply a state of God Consciousness or Oneness with God.
Believe It or Not.
edit on 12-12-2011 by RRokkyy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by RRokkyy
 


Okay... I don't quite see where you make the jump from "no spouses" to "nobody at all". The way I understood it was that the system that we know of as "marriage" will cease to exist in Heaven (therefore, no spouses). Not that the person will not BE in Heaven.



Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”


You made an excellent point, and thanks for explaining. Though I do find it a bit interesting that this was the only "parable" that included a specific name that I know of. The "rich man" is relatively consistent with the parables told by Jesus. A fairly generic term that applied to many people at the time. However, instead of using only "a beggar" (which would be consistent with other parables), Jesus gave this particular beggar a name, Lazarus. I'm not sure exactly how common the name "Lazurus" was at the time, but it is considerably more specific than the other parables were. Other parables gave more fairly generic terms: a shepherd who searched for a lost lamb, a farmer who scattered seed, a woman who lost a coin. Even "The Good Samaritan" only referred to a person of a region. But in this "parable", the beggar was given a name. This makes me wonder if it wasn't, to some extent, a true event. This is unlikely given the point you've already established of Abraham already being in his grave, but it does make me wonder.



Originally posted by Akragon

and the death of a "bad" man...


The text explains differences in fate as the effects of past-life actions. A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.


Let me check to see if I'm understanding this right... You believe that we create our own miserable existence through "past lives" and thereby create our own "hell" through our future lives existence on Earth, yes? But then I'm a bit confused about where it says "earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment". Earth, as well as hell. So do you also believe that hell does exist, not only in the sense of creating our own "hell"?



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 



Let me check to see if I'm understanding this right... You believe that we create our own miserable existence through "past lives" and thereby create our own "hell" through our future lives existence on Earth, yes? But then I'm a bit confused about where it says "earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment". Earth, as well as hell. So do you also believe that hell does exist, not only in the sense of creating our own "hell"?


That is exactly what im saying... but not just through past lives, also through the negative Karma you create which can be resolved within this incarnation.

Though keep in mind that is a portion of the document i provided... its view on the existance of hell has nothing to do with my beliefs of said place... "hell" does not exist according to bibical scripture... And though that particular piece of scripture does not come from the bible... i still do not believe such a place exists.

I do however believe that we can create our own "hell" on earth through your actions in this incarnation... which may manifest in our next incarnation


edit on 12-12-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2011 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by RRokkyy
 


Okay... I don't quite see where you make the jump from "no spouses" to "nobody at all". The way I understood it was that the system that we know of as "marriage" will cease to exist in Heaven (therefore, no spouses). Not that the person will not BE in Heaven.



Will we have spouses in Heaven? Not like we do now on earth. The best insight on this comes from Matthew 22:23-33. Jesus, in answering a different question, says that those in the resurrection do not marry, nor are they given in marriage. Apparently, then, marriage is a part of this current life and not of the life to come. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30)


You will be like the angels of God in heaven.
The angels are 'married' to God or One with God.
If you dont have your spouse AS YOUR SPOUSE then
what kind of relationship could you have with them?
Adonai Echod God is One.
There is only God. Infinite Love/Bliss/Fullness
Nothing else exists.
Separate beings are an illusion.
You are only the sense of fear arising in each moment,
which is your own creation.
edit on 12-12-2011 by RRokkyy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by EPH612
 



You made an excellent point, and thanks for explaining.


Your welcome, and we can always learn new points from the scriptures, I know I do, when I read them over and over again, we grasp something that was always been there, but we were just millimeters away from comprehension.
edit on 13-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by RRokkyy



Will we have spouses in Heaven? Not like we do now on earth. The best insight on this comes from Matthew 22:23-33. Jesus, in answering a different question, says that those in the resurrection do not marry, nor are they given in marriage. Apparently, then, marriage is a part of this current life and not of the life to come. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30)


You will be like the angels of God in heaven.
The angels are 'married' to God or One with God.
If you dont have your spouse AS YOUR SPOUSE then
what kind of relationship could you have with them?
Adonai Echod God is One.
There is only God. Infinite Love/Bliss/Fullness
Nothing else exists.
Separate beings are an illusion.
You are only the sense of fear arising in each moment,
which is your own creation.
edit on 12-12-2011 by RRokkyy because: (no reason given)


I don't know exactly what relationship you would have with your spouse. But in Matthew 20, 21-23 it says:

"Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

"What is it you want?" he asked.

She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."

"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?"

"We can," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."


Those places belong to whom they have been prepared. Sounds like there's going to be more than just you there. I don't know how it's going to work, but I am pretty sure that you won't be all alone with God. Now, being all alone with God would be AWESOME, but I think it'll be just as awesome when you're sharing God's presence with others. God's love is infinite, and he pays attention to everything you do. Every moment you're getting one-on-one time with God. In Heaven I think it simply becomes more pronounced and clear.



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