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Where does the bible explicitly describe an afterlife?

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posted on Dec, 8 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 

. . . what Heaven will be like. Can't wait to see it . . .
There may not be an actual heaven.
What this seems to be to me is a concept that goes way back into antiquity of there being a perfect existence, and how this perfection is perceived is by looking at the stars and how they never seem to change their configurations, to where there is an apparent order to things, thus reflecting a superior state of being, compared to what things are like the closer to Earth they get. The closer they are the more disorganized things are and the more apparent chaos there is. This is perceived as being a lower state which is inferior to the higher state, and thus less good, and by logic, more evil, and also by anecdotal evidence.
I think the object of religion is to have a way of directing the spirit of goodness to come down to our level so as to make it more orderly than it would be otherwise. According to Platonic philosophy, the highest regions of heaven can not be inhabited by people and that makes a certain logical sense, in that people are not naturally orderly and organized like ranks of infantry in Medieval warfare or something. We go about in apparent randomness so would not fit the definition of the divine state, which is staying in a fixed position.
My recommendation is to work on a goodness to oneself and to try to spread the heavenly goodness to others so there can be an achievement of a world that we would want to live in. To me, it sort of defeats the purpose of religion to have a place that just magically makes everyone become non-random entities.




posted on Dec, 8 2011 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 
I don't think we know even what a god is.
So there is this ambiguity between gods and non-gods.
I very recently downgraded by definition of God from this unknowable entity to a very knowable being.
I shifted this unknowable non-being entity to a "cause", sort of like what I imagine the philosophical monad is, or was, where the one become a one but unlike the first "one", though it is impossible to know it is different because all we have is the evidence that something caused everything we know to exist, to exist, which is a single unit, everything, which I do no think is God. I think God is of the "everything" but what gives an identity as a person, where the "everything" could never fill that role.


edit on 8-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
I think the object of religion is to have a way of directing the spirit of goodness to come down to our level so as to make it more orderly than it would be otherwise. According to Platonic philosophy, the highest regions of heaven can not be inhabited by people and that makes a certain logical sense, in that people are not naturally orderly and organized like ranks of infantry in Medieval warfare or something. We go about in apparent randomness so would not fit the definition of the divine state, which is staying in a fixed position.


An interesting thought. However I do have two concerns. First of all, where is God in that theory? For me, being near the existence of God is everything that makes Heaven what it is. Secondly, this is making the assumption that Heaven is calm and orderly. To me chaos, disorder and randomness, to an extent, express our individuality.



My recommendation is to work on a goodness to oneself and to try to spread the heavenly goodness to others so there can be an achievement of a world that we would want to live in. To me, it sort of defeats the purpose of religion to have a place that just magically makes everyone become non-random entities.



An excellent suggestion. But while it certainly makes sense, keep in mind that you are examining the spiritual and divine. As such, not everything WILL make sense. And I wouldn't say that everyone becomes non-random entities. Have you ever worked with someone where both of you work together perfectly? I have. And while you both retain your randomness/individuality you both are running almost on the same wavelength. To me THAT'S what I think Heaven will be like. You retain your individuality (and therefore randomness and variation) but it all fits perfectly together. And the "magical" part shows the divine/spiritual aspect. Not everything will make sense.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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To the OP there is an "afterlife" but not how it has been traditionally known as.

There is an afterlife via the resurrection for 99% of humanity, part of the 1% with no afterlife per say are people like Judas. Right now 99% of humanity that have lived and died are just sleeping in death, like Jesus said of Lazarus.
But they are coming back, and to this earth.
John 5:28 & 29

Don't act so surprised at all this. The time is coming when everyone dead and buried will hear his voice. Those who have lived the right way will walk out into a resurrection Life; those who have lived the wrong way, into a resurrection Judgment.


Most of Christendom thinks they will be judged on their past life, but this is incorrect because death pays the price for sin because we know Jesus paid that price for humanity, and as imperfect people we pay it too, when we die.
Romans 6:7

For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

The Judgement is on what they do with their life after they are resurrected, will they change now that they know the truth 100% for certain, or will they continue in there old sinful ways?
Isaiah 65:20

There shall no more be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who dies prematurely; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies when only a hundred years old shall be [thought only a child, cut off because he is] accursed.

Read the context of all of Isaiah 65 and you will understand this is talking about the restored earth where people and animals are now at peace with one another, anybody disturbing that peace will dealt with swiftly cursed with death and non-existence.

There is no hellfire, that is old dogma conjured up to scare the ignorant, because they never understood Greek and Hebrew and trusted the money hungry controlling clergy of days gone by. I really feel sorry for Christians that are still motivated by this fear to serve God.

I would suggest to them they study just few words in Greek and Hebrew and the scales will drop off your eyes on this matter.

edit on 9-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by akiros
I think that heaven and hell are meant to be metaphorical states of consciousness.
2nd line


I have to agree with you, I too think both are a place in the human mind, placed there by religious dogma, which can, in time, place any belief firmly in place. This technique was perfected by the Chinese, they call it "brainwashing."

The Afterlife will be just what you want it to be. Build the concept deep in your mind, and for heaven's sake don't let someone else do this for you.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by EPH612
 

As such, not everything WILL make sense.

You have to separate the two things, the reality, and what we invented as a way to understand what we think is probably reality.
The second thing should make sense, otherwise there is no reason for it to exist.
The first thing obviously does not make sense, otherwise there would be no reason to create the second thing.
So what you do is reverse engineer the second thing to realize what the assumptions were of the people who made up the terminology and the descriptions. Where this would be of any use is with things like sayings of Jesus in the Gospels. Was Jesus stating facts but in the language already made up, or did he invent his own language and people later retrofitted his sayings back into the already existing language?
You could think of Jacob's ladder, where maybe in his language that was how angels got to heaven and then back to Earth, where that was the only technology he could think of. By the time of Jesus, there was a better mode of transportation that people thought about, since they probably did not actually use it themselves, which is riding on clouds. The idea is just to get up a bit, above where all the bad things happen, to detach Himself from the mundane. To the people back then, that was one way to do it, go up to the top of the highest clouds and then you were with God. Now-days with airplanes, we know there is not heaven up there because we can see the tops of the clouds and there is no one living there. We can use the Gospel and see Jesus just walk out of a wall and be in the room without coming in in a normal way, and we can understand that he just shifted dimensions, and did not have to "come from" anywhere.
edit on 9-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


I think you have arrived at your conclusion by taking certain scripture passages very carefully out of their true contextual meaning; let me explain. Re: John 5; when you actually take the verse you supplied in the context of the entire passage, it becomes clear that Jesus, Himself, implies in vs.25-26 that only those who have heard and believed the word of Christ and the Father Who sent Him will receive life and everyone else will receive condemnation.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." ~ John 5:25-30

On Romans 6:7...Again you have carefully selected one verse from the entire passage which gives the wrong idea about what Paul actually said. Let's take a look at what was actually said in the scriptural references.

" Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him," ~ Romans 6:3-8

After looking at the entire context of the passage, we see that Paul is quite a bit more explicit in the qualifications of those who are really free from sin. Only those who "believe" and are "baptized" by faith in the death & resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ will be free from the power of sin and be granted eternal life with God and His Son in heaven.


No let's look at your reference from the book of Isaiah and see what the entire context of the verses tells us:

“ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
“ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old, ~ Isaiah 65:17-20


In this passage, God is relating how He will create a new Heaven and a New Earth for those who are alive at the end of all things, after Christ has returned to receive all of his own unto himself. This is confirmed in Revelation 21:1-4, where John sees the new Heaven and New Earth coming down from Heaven. Also note that this is at the end of Revelation and The Great White Throne Judgement described in Matthew 25 has taken place with all the sheep ( the redeemed of Christ), entering into eternal rest and the goats, ( The condemned, whose names were not found in the"Book of Life"), are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Also, as to your assertion that there is no fire and brimstone: please see Mark 9:43-45; Matthew 25;Luke 16:19-30 and Revelation Chapters 20 & 21 where the reality of hell is described.

Your comment about the Greek and Hebrew translations is insulting. Even verses read and interpreted in those languages will be wrong if taken out of it's contextual meaning, both in the context of the surrounding scripture in that passage and chapter but also in the context of other previously and subsequently revealed wisdom in God's Word.

The truth is hard to swallow but true there is a Heaven and there is an actual physical Hell and where you end up depends completely on Whom you choose to follow and believe, Jesus Christ or the world



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by EPH612
 

You have to separate the two things, the reality, and what we invented as a way to understand what we think is probably reality. The second thing should make sense, otherwise there is no reason for it to exist. The first thing obviously does not make sense, otherwise there would be no reason to create the second thing. So what you do is reverse engineer the second thing to realize what the assumptions were of the people who made up the terminology and the descriptions.


Agreed. However, I feel you may have misunderstood my point. Allow me to try and make it clear. My point was a big part of it trying to understand the supernatural is understanding that there may be (and probably are) parts that you CAN'T understand. Not from a lack of trying. But our perspective is limited by being human. Our very existence distorts our outlook on the supernatural. So any kind of way of trying to understand is futile. Any effort to do so results in an incorrect grasp of the concept. We are spiritually incapable. By trying to understand it, we are unable to grasp it. So once you THINK you understand it, it has ceased to be what it was. You created something different that you could understand. In some cases, I feel it's when you finally think and believe you understand it, that you're far from it. Believing in something you can't understand is called "faith". You don't understand it, but you believe in it anyways. There are several parts of the Old Testament that I don't understand. But I believe that God knows better than I do. So I trust in Him. And to me, faith beats understanding every time.
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edit on 12/9/11 by EPH612 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:54 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


I am not going to try to attempt to debunk your "out of context" comments, as this is classic for Christians still stuck in their 10th century old dogma. Go back and study some more, may I suggest you start with Hades & Sheol. The "new heavens" point makes me laugh, as if God will destroy the entire heavens that has already been cleansed of the Satan and the Demons, to what end, his physical creation in the heavens with no biological life in it doesn't need to be destroyed. It really means a new order or system set up, with Christ as it's King and in full control, not it's total physical destruction, same applies to the earth.

And once again there is NO HELL !
Some very clever clergyman invented this centuries ago.
God wants our commitment to him through love not fear, hell is pure fear.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


I think I understand where you are coming from now; you are a "buffet" believer: you accept the things that God has told us in His Word that meet with your approval and don't require any actual sacrifice on your part and reject the things that make you uncomfortable or would necessitate a change in your world view, established mindset and behavior. You have a lot of company out there. But, may I remind you that if some of what is included in the Bible in incorrect, then, everything is suspect. At that point you might as well throw it all out because it becomes completely untrustworthy as any kind of reference or guide to Who God is and what He expects from us. Just because you decide not to believe somethingt does not make it untrue.

If you really do believe in a personal God who interacts with His creation today and Who hears us when we pray, I would suggest you ask Him to confirm or deny your idea of what constitutes biblical truth; after all He is the Author, right? The Bible does say that God grants wisdom to those who ask it and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

As far as my need to go back and study some more goes, you are correct; We are instructed by God in His Holy Word to study to make ourselves approved. This is something I have been doing for over forty years.I am college educated and I am also a minister of the Word and Sacraments. . So, when I make statements about God's word and find objection with those who systematically deconstruct the Word of God and the History of His church, I do so with some authority and understanding.

Jesus said that those who were not with Him were against Him. How do you suppose He views those who reject 90% of what He taught us and only accept and believe the 10% they find palatable?


edit on 12/10/2011 by lightseeker because: Punctuation

edit on 12/10/2011 by lightseeker because: TYPO

edit on 12/10/2011 by lightseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 

I think I understand where you are coming from now; you are a "buffet" believer: you accept the things that God has told us in His Word that meet with your approval and don't require any actual sacrifice on your part and reject the things that make you uncomfortable or would necessitate a change in your world view, established mindset and behavior.
Sorry to jump in here but I think you are way off here. You are thinking like you are talking to one of your congregation but you are not. There are other religions, or at least one definitely, that believe like this (think about it for a minute and the name may come to you) so it is not an individual decision that he is making to reject things out of hand but is an acceptance of things that were taught to him, so is not an indication of disbelief or lack of faith or desire to be bad, like you imagine. You are judging him using a standard for your religion. If you want to make a valid accusation against him you need to be able to prove your point that you are undeniably correct and that he is indisputably wrong. You have as a starting point the idea that you are correct and anyone disagreeing has something wrong with him. That may work in a closed society where the only people you meet are supposedly loyal adherents to a creed and expression of faith to your own dogma, not something everyone in the world has signed up for.
edit on 10-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by lightseeker
 


I am not going to try to attempt to debunk your "out of context" comments, as this is classic for Christians still stuck in their 10th century old dogma. Go back and study some more, may I suggest you start with Hades & Sheol. The "new heavens" point makes me laugh, as if God will destroy the entire heavens that has already been cleansed of the Satan and the Demons, to what end, his physical creation in the heavens with no biological life in it doesn't need to be destroyed. It really means a new order or system set up, with Christ as it's King and in full control, not it's total physical destruction, same applies to the earth.


I must say, I'm a bit confused. I'd have to agree with lightseeker. If you take scripture out of context, then you are misrepresenting the message. Some scriptures on their own still show the correct message. For example, "Thou shalt not murder" is pretty self-explanatory, with or without the rest of the Ten Commandments. But others, when removed from context, send a different message. Islamic jihad has the same issue. It takes parts of the Qu'ran out of context to justify a certain set of beliefs. Personally, I'd like for you to "debunk" those "out of context" comments. Right now, I don't understand how you could take parts of scripture out of context and still have the same message. And I'd also appreciate more elaboration on studying on Hades and Sheol.



And once again there is NO HELL !
Some very clever clergyman invented this centuries ago.
God wants our commitment to him through love not fear, hell is pure fear.


I'd agree that God wants our commitment to him through love and not fear, but I don't agree that there isn't a Hell. Luke 16, 19-31:

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abrahams side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "



Secondly, there is Revelation 20, 11-15:



"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

We have a two separate biblical accounts that say that Hell exists. So I'd have to disagree with your statement that Hell doesn't exist. But once again, I agree that God wants us to serve him through love, not fear. The whole aspect of "turn or burn" isn't what Christ wanted. But that doesn't change the fact that Hell exists.
edit on 12/10/11 by EPH612 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


I accept what the bible REALLY teaches, not dogma that the catholic church rammed down peoples throats for centuries, some if carried into the reformation and was never properly purged, as was said a great apostasy would come on the scene after the first century Christians died off. And it did, unfortunately it is still with us today.
People like this, with the help of holy spirit began to get us back on the right path.

Peter of Bruys
Henry of Lausanne
Peter Waldo
John Wycliffe
William Tyndale
Henry Grew
George Storrs

Waldensians
Lollards

The path back to the real truth of the bible has been progressive, no one group has had 100% monopoly on the holy spirit through the centuries. Did they get everything right, no, but they tried there best and God blessed them for that.




edit on 10-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


That is a very interesting statement that you make. I always thought and believed that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. God spoke the truth to men, through the Holy Spirit, who then wrote that truth down, so that others could know what God was all about; Who He was and what He expected from His children. Apparently, you believe that is not true; that there is, somewhere, some "hidden wisdom" only available to a select and elect few, like yourself and everyone else is totally off the mark which you take every opportunity to ridicule. May I suggest to you that it is your own interpretation of scripture that is in error. You have been misinformed and deceived.

If the power of God and His Holy Spirit were not strong enough and effective enough to be sure that we "got it right" when His word was written down & translated, then we are all lost and that God is not trustworthy or believable. As i stated in my last post, if all of what we read in the Bible does not say what it means and means what it says, we might as well throw it all out. If knowing what the Bible "really means" depends on having special knowledge or information to interpret, then it becomes useless to anyone reading and studying the Bible.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 



Good work here Sir, reading your responses and you're nailing it.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 

As i stated in my last post, if all of what we read in the Bible does not say what it means and means what it says, we might as well throw it all out. If knowing what the Bible "really means" depends on having special knowledge or information to interpret, then it becomes useless to anyone reading and studying the Bible.
There is a place in Revelation where it says, let him who has understanding, understand or calculate it.
Not everyone is supposed to understand. You can read the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel where it says that God will make the people not understand, and Jesus repeats the theme and later Paul does the same thing, but attributes it to something negative, while Jesus seems rather ambiguous about it and just accepts it as fact without making a judgment on it. It is dependent on the people and some will understand and some will not. There is more to it than just having access to a Bible, and some of these people listed by Blue Jay were killed for reading the Bible and making it available for others to read. The problem is that bad people have lorded over the Word to keep it for themselves to distort it for their own purposes and now that it is available to all, we can break out of these spiritual prisons we had been kept in for centuries, and some people do not want to look back but to continue looking forward to the freedom promised to us in the Word.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Thank you for the kind words of encouragement, my friend. God bless you!

2nd line



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
There is a place in Revelation where it says, let him who has understanding, understand or calculate it.

The verse you refer to is found in Revelation 13:18 and refers specifically to the identity of the Anti-Christ, not to the interpretation of the entire Bible. There is not one scripture reference in God's word where anyone, God the Father, Jesus or anyone else tells us to pick and choose what we believe and what we choose to ignore or intentionally misrepresent; those who do, do so at their own peril. God is not mocked. (Gal 6:7)


Not everyone is supposed to understand. You can read the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel where it says that God will make the people not understand, and Jesus repeats the theme and later Paul does the same thing, but attributes it to something negative, while Jesus seems rather ambiguous about it and just accepts it as fact without making a judgment on it. It is dependent on the people and some will understand and some will not.


You are correct in saying that not all WILL understand and that God will cause many people eyes to be closed to the truth and harden their hearts against believing but only because being God and being omniscient, He already knows who will and who won't believe. That is why it is so very important to understand that the decision to believe comes before the understanding part; that is why it is called faith. First we believe in our hearts that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's plan for salvation is true, then we are given the understanding and discernment we need to properly interpret the Word of God. Both the coming to believe and the granting of wisdom and understanding come from God, Himself, through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God and His sacrificial death on the cross, His resurrection and atonement for our personal sins and those of all who believe in Him is essential, along with our own sincere sorrow and repentance [ John 3:16; Matthew 9:13; 2Cor 7:10; 2Peter 3:9] These verses also show that God wants all to come to repentance but implies strongly that not all will. Also implicit in all of these scripture references show that belief and a change of heart regarding our sinful natures comes before the granting of salvation. Only after those criteria have been fulfilled do we receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit which actually indwells us and gives the wisdom and discernment necessary to understand and interpret the scriptures correctly.


The problem is that bad people have lorded over the Word to keep it for themselves to distort it for their own purposes and now that it is available to all, we can break out of these spiritual prisons we had been kept in for centuries, and some people do not want to look back but to continue looking forward to the freedom promised to us in the Word.


Like I said before, anyone who distorts the word of God or intentionally misrepresents what the Word says does so at their own peril. I am not one of those people and I do not judge others personally but I suspect that there are very many people in this world who represent themselves as champions of God who are in actuality enemies of the Cross of Christ and use God's word as a means for their own aggrandizement. I wouldn't want to be them on Judgement Day!!.



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


Then we agree on this scripture.
Romans 10:2

I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.


And to the OP point of an afterlife, the correct and vital knowledge is there is no physical place God is allowing his creation to burn in pain forever, that is not love, it is a pagan ideology. God will end a souls life if it chooses to be rebellious, but he won't allow it to be tortured forever because it used it's free will to rebel. Common fatherly feelings of imperfect humans wouldn't even do that, would you stick your child in a oven? We are made in God's image we have his sense of justice, if we wouldn't do it, neither would he.
Is God crueler than humans?
Meditate on that question.

edit on 10-12-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2011 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by lightseeker
 


Then we agree on this scripture.
Romans 10:2

I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.


I don't think so. You seem to want to extend that description to everyone who doesn't accept your point of view of what the Bible actually says. So, let's look at that verse in the context of the whole passage and see where it leads us.

"Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”"

First of all, we see that those the Apostle Paul was referring to were the spiritual leaders of Israel, the Jewish priests and leaders who were basing their own righteousness on their adherence to the law. Paul points out that, "Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes" and further that,the righteousness of faith is solely based on our relationship to Jesus Christ; on whether you "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead". He goes on to make it clear that no one can make that confession of faith until they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation" Do you believe this?



And to the OP point of an afterlife, the correct and vital knowledge is there is no physical place God is allowing his creation to burn in pain forever, that is not love, it is a pagan ideology. God will end a souls life if it chooses to be rebellious, but he won't allow it to be tortured forever because it used it's free will to rebel. Common fatherly feelings of imperfect humans wouldn't even do that, would you stick your child in a oven? We are made in God's image we have his sense of justice, if we wouldn't do it, neither would he.
Is God crueler than humans?
Meditate on that question.


This sort of set me back a bit because i know that in an earlier post you made it crystal clear that you accepted the words of Jesus as "pure truth"; so, it surprised me that you would discount the words of Jesus, made many time in the gospels, that there is indeed a physical and very real place called Hell. I know you are aware of them but let me just list a couple:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.".Matthew 10:28

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where ‘ Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" ~ Mark 9:42-44.

In other places, He refers to Hell as the "outer darkness" where there will be eternal "weeping and gnashing of teeth". This does not even take into account the Old Testament references to a fiery Hell which are numerous or the passages in other books of the new testament, including, of course, the Book of Revelation. So let me ask you, how cqn you say, on one hand, that the words of Jesus are "pure truth" and yet set aside and ignore all of His words, not just about Hell, itself, but about an eternal judgement.?



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