Where does the bible explicitly describe an afterlife?

reply to post by Akragon

I think the "homicidal mythology" of OT God had nothing to do with the one true God... so nothing needs to be removed, just realized.

Good luck with convincing die-hard YHWH worshipers of that.
I think this is why the Gospel of John made such a point of the "I Am" thing because people didn't get it so he had to drive the point home to forget what you thought, and if you insist on a YHWH, then, "here is one right here and now you should understand what the word means."

Originally posted by akiros
I like how everyone ignored my simple explanation and went on to ramble incessant bull#.

I suppose because they did not believe you, or your explanation was too brief. This is ATS, so get accustomed to being ignored and overlooked. It happens to me all the time.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by BirdOfillOmen

 

There are 25 Pages of verses in the Bible describing Heaven as a place above the earth. It is mostly linked to the Cosmos in general. As you follow the trail, you see that the planet is consummated in marriage in the end, then renewed. This process of birth, development and renewal is the same for all life and all of creation. One aspect is a mirror for the next.

from what you've written there I just imagine that the earth, along with the solar system will eventually die and return to the cosmos (the Heavens) and through accretion and other processes, be the seeds of creation for something else.

through my interest in the seasons I have spent considerable time trying to unravel the secrets of the calendar systems.... unfortunately as perfect as our number systems are, (counting 1,2,3,4,5....2+2=4, etc.) nature cares not for such things, hence; leap years.

Follow the process from the union of husband and wife in love and you see the same union beyond this. The earth is the next womb. We are to find union with God in love. Once our soul gains union with God in love, it is consummated and we transcend the material realm. The earth will follow this cycle and then begin a new chapter and age. Every seven thousand years is a new cycle. One generation of years is approx. 70 years. The processional cycle of earth around the galaxy is roughly 26000 years, divided by 360 gives you a generation. There are 100 generations of humans in a week for the earth. Every 72 years, there is one degree of shift in the axis pole of the earth. 26000 / 360 is 72.2222.

the numbers you have provided, although near aproximations, are invalid and meaningless.
for one, the precessional cycle is more aproximately stated as 25,765 years and it's every 71 years that there's a 1 degree shift. WWU Planetarium.
Based on your calculation, 25,765 / 360 is 71.56944444444444 ... close, I suppose, but what relevance does this have? (and, as you can see, our number system holds no perfection in the chaotic order of natural events)
why does 360degrees matter? Earth is an oblate spheroid, not exactly round.
What are the 70 years?
where did you get seven thousand years from?
At the end of the day these numbers, as much as they are helpful with agriculture, the fiscal year, etc, still, are quite meaningless rested amongst other great quandries.



sorry I don't have much to add, besides what's posted above. I'm not a follower of religion. Although, I must say I like your train of thought in your op. personally, as much as i may ponder the thought from time to time, it seems irrelevant to think too much on heaven and hell, if they exist, besides being true and good on my path, what can I do to avoid or direct my self either way? there are so many rule books (holy books) how can one be right? one thing they all seem to have gotten right is; treat others as you would yourself. what more simple logic could there be?

and still it's never that simple, is it?

reply to post by Jimjolnir

the numbers you have provided, although near aproximations, are invalid and meaningless.
for one, the precessional cycle is more aproximately stated as 25,765 years and it's every 71 years that there's a 1 degree shift. WWU Planetarium.
Based on your calculation, 25,765 / 360 is 71.56944444444444 ... close, I suppose, but what relevance does this have? (and, as you can see, our number system holds no perfection in the chaotic order of natural events)
why does 360degrees matter? Earth is an oblate spheroid, not exactly round.
What are the 70 years?
where did you get seven thousand years from?
At the end of the day these numbers, as much as they are helpful with agriculture, the fiscal year, etc, still, are quite meaningless rested amongst other great quandries.

It's possible I wasn't clear. 1000 years is a day to the Lord. 7000 years is a week, with the last (or first) is a day of rest.

Adam to Abraham is 2000
Abraham to Jesus is 2000
Jesus to Our Day is 2000 (This day will be cut short - Matt. 24)

2012-2018 (7 Year Tribulation - My best guess)

Day of rest and 1000 reign of Christ.

Another way to calculate this is to take the year that Israel becomes a nation. Matthew 24 states that when the fig tree is tender (Israel becomes a nation), then the generation that sees this happen will see the Lord return.

1948 + 70ish = 2018.

There has been a belief among many theologians that Psalm 1 - 150 represents a year for each Psalm, starting with 1901 as Psalm 1. If you read Psalm 111 for 2011, you see an awakening. If you read 112 - 118, you see an image of the tribulation events. 115 is the revealing of the image and idol of the Anti-Christ. It's not possible to verify this until it happens. We can connect the dots looking back. As for now, we see this as a possibility.

To keep this thread on track, this relates to the afterlife directly. 1000 year reign of Christ will be the dead in Christ rising to new life. We spend 1000 years living out a full life. At the end, those who raped the earth for their own selfish desires will be judged and sent to the abyss, along with Satan and His minions. Sin and death is defeated.

You can look the references up for yourself. The internet is ripe with perspectives.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

Heaven can not be a physical place...

The spirit is not physical...

Christ resurrected bodily from the tomb.

I know that... or so it reads.

The body is just meat my friend, the abode of the spirit can not be a physical place. Or we would have no bodies in the graves all over the world.

The body dies, the spirit does not...

What does "resurrect" mean to you?

To be brought back to life...

or even

To bring back into practice, notice, or use...

This does not necessarily mean a dead body is brought back to life... The body is a vehicle for the soul, it is meat and nothing more... Once an engine block is cracked, the engine is dead... theres nothing that can be done... its over!

The spirit can not be broken... it is not physical, and does not die... Now the "physical" Son of God would have the power to bring the dead body back to life... His father created all life... and gave that power to his Son... but the Son is no longer physical... he is spirit. And his spirit lives within all "physical" life.

Now speaking in the other definition... To be resurected might mean... To return the memory of something...

In this case, the resurrection of Christ is the returning of the memory of who we truely are... Which of course is also returned to you once you pass...

This is what he was refering to when he said the dead will be brought to life... Without love, you are dead in spirit... but that is only an illusion, made to fool you. In reality the spirit can not die...

Please read John 5... its a beautiful chapter...


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and NOW is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


The hour is NOW, and always has been... What else is there other then Now?

reply to post by Akragon

This does not necessarily mean a dead body is brought back to life...

If the body wasn't resurrected how did Christianity explode in Jerusalem immediately after Jesus died? All people would have to do is walk to the tomb and see it still with a Roman seal upon it's door. Why would all the apostles (minus John) endure martyrdom and torture for something they conspired to? Do you think Peter really would have asked to be crucified upside down for refusing to recant that Christ rose from the dead? If he didn't see Him and meet Him just as the gospels say?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

This does not necessarily mean a dead body is brought back to life...

If the body wasn't resurrected how did Christianity explode in Jerusalem immediately after Jesus died? All people would have to do is walk to the tomb and see it still with a Roman seal upon it's door. Why would all the apostles (minus John) endure martyrdom and torture for something they conspired to? Do you think Peter really would have asked to be crucified upside down for refusing to recant that Christ rose from the dead? If he didn't see Him and meet Him just as the gospels say?

You missed the part where i said the "son of God" was given this power... How else could he possibly convince the world there is life beyond death? That was the purpose of his life... to show the path. And the existance of life after death.

No man has ever "resurrected" from the death of the body since HE was alive... the body dies, but the spirit still lives on...

Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
First off, let's not get derailed from my original question and trigger another digital holy war. To be fair, some of my closest friends are Christian and they're pretty awesome people

Now, I believe the bible is partially true in an allegorical sense. Subtract all the supernatural stuff and the orthodox perception of Heaven and Hell and I think there's something behind it. Can Heaven be a utopian state of Earth and is Hell a global holocaust? Is the Book of Revelation nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecy that programs Christians to react a certain way when triggered by a sign of the "End Times"?

Discuss.

edit on 12/2/2011 by BirdOfillOmen because: (no reason given)

Here is how I look at it my friend.

Heaven is tomorrow. It is the constant goal before Man as we travel through time. Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven is within us. So look within you and picture what that Kingdom would be like. Then live like you are there. Christ went to prepare a place for all of us. In the father's house are many mansions. This means that all will have the heaven they want because we work for the benefit of us all.

Hell, the firey pit is the past. It is the forgotten memories of what we were or might have been. It will be were we go if we do not pursue the higher goal in life. Lost forgotten souls who no one remembers existed.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Jim Scott
You may have missed the point of Jesus resurrecting in a physical body that could be touched by Thomas. We will likewise have a physical body that can be touched, not a spiritual ethereal body. We will be able to go through walls, etc. in that physical body, as He did.

Considering Jesus was the only person to have his "physical body" resurected... ever! Which happened to show the world there is life beyond death... shown by the "son of God"

I believe you are wrong...

Thomas also called him God....which was Incorrect.

edit on 2-12-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." ~John 14:5-10

[Jesus said] "I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." ~ John 10:30=33

Jesus, Himself, declared in the above scriptures and elsewhere in the Gospels that He was indeed equal to God;
The Jews certainly understood what He was claiming to be and were willing to stone Him for blasphemy. He also accepted Thomas' worship as his Lord and God and did not correct him, which He would certainly have done if he was "incorrect' in his statement,as you assert. It is also important to understand that if Thomas was incorrect in his declaration and Jesus was NOT God, in the flesh, that His death on the cross and resurrection from death would be totally useless and ineffective in the final and complete victory over sin and death.

Ahh, I see all the familiar players are active in this thread The OP's question has been answered by now, but know one posted a description of the "bad side" of the after life? No Luke 16 peoples? No balance to this question? Those who reject Jesus Christ as God need a place to spend the afterlife too you know!

Luke 16:
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

reply to post by lightseeker

Jesus, Himself, declared in the above scriptures and elsewhere in the Gospels that He was indeed equal to God;
The Jews certainly understood what He was claiming to be and were willing to stone Him for blasphemy. He also accepted Thomas' worship as his Lord and God and did not correct him, which He would certainly have done if he was "incorrect' in his statement,as you assert.

Incorrect... Jesus did not make himself equal to God in any circumstance within the bible... "i and my father are one" does not mean equality....

If you read the nexts verses from that passage you convienently left out you'll find Jesus denies being God when the Jews want to stone him for... as they said... "being a man you make yourself God"...

Yes many people worshipped him as God, but he knew better then to claim he was God, which is why you'll find he did not make that claim... NOT ONCE...

I would think he didn't mind being worshipped because he was the closest thing to God, being Gods son...

Though most christians overlook the fact that he said... None are good but one.... and that ONE is always greater then he...

reply to post by Akragon

Yes many people worshipped him as God, but he knew better then to claim he was God, which is why you'll find he did not make that claim... NOT ONCE...

I ran into soming odd today in a book I am reading called Paperback Apocalypse. The author brings up a verse (among others) that may give an insight into this thing about Jesus being called God by Thomas.
Psalms 45:6
Your throne, O God, is permanent. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

If one did not know the context, they might just breeze right past it without giving it a thought, but it is talking about a Davidic king, and it is not talking about God in particular. I know this sounds far fetched but this is what this author is doing in this book, he is dragging out all these things he knows you have never heard your minister preach a sermon on because some topics are just ignored because no one wants to deal with them.
If you think this is all crazy-talk and the author is just pulling this out of his hat or someplace, then you can read what the translator notes say about it in NETBible.

. . . O God. The king is clearly the addressee here, as in vv. 2-5 and 7-9. Rather than taking the statement at face value, many prefer to emend the text because the concept of deifying the earthly king is foreign to ancient Israelite thinking,

You can read the rest HERE.

reply to post by Akragon


Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God'’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand ~ John 10:34-39

Jesus comments to the Pharisees re: You are god's, (small g) is opposed by His description of Himself, (Son of God) (Capital G), was actually a rebuke to supposedly learned scholars of the Torah for not recognizing the prophesied, Messiah, foretold by just about every major profit of old, (from Zechariah to Isaiah to Daniel). Jesus was absolutely making Himself equal to God the Father when He says He is the Son of God (remember His virgin birth) and when he tells them that the "Father is in Me and I am in the Father"

Also every Apostle who came after Him, (His former Disciples), all declared Him to be God and, except for John, Went to their deaths preaching and believing that very thing.

Of course all of this explanation on my part is almost certainly in vain as you have apparently made up your mind that Jesus was not divine ans was just a "good man" who came to tell us that there was an afterlife. Seems like an awful lot of pain and suffering on His part if that was all He came to tell us.

reply to post by jmdewey60


My question is... if Thomas was so correct... would you not think his gospel might have been made cannon within the bible?

I realize that his gospel is disputed because of the authorship, and the dating... but the question remains.

It seems to me the only ones that can refute the claims that Jesus was not God are the ones that chose pauls work over Jesus. Paul can be clearly shown as a liar.... yet Christians still take his word over their saviour, which is amusing to say the least.

Im not really sure where your reply was going either way...

reply to post by lightseeker

Also every Apostle who came after Him, (His former Disciples), all declared Him to be God and, except for John, Went to their deaths preaching and believing that very thing.

You can also find that Jesus was amazed that his followers did not understand him... IF he was God... he would have said so.... and he did not.

Of course all of this is explanation on my part is almost certainly in vain as you have apparently made up your mind that Jesus was not divine ans was just a "good man" who came to tell us that there was an afterlife. Seems like an awful lot of pain and suffering on His part if that was all He came to tell us.

Incorrect....

I do not deny his divinity... i can not deny any of his words because they are pure truth. And the truth is, he did not claim to be God, and always spoke of his father being greater then he is...

I deny Christians claims of him being God... and its obvious why... Christians don't even know their own saviour most times... They do not understand Jesus and what he taught... this is clear and all you need to do is look at the state of Christianity to see that fact...

He never claimed to be God... Others did... but he knew better as i said.

And again.... The father is in me, and i in him, does not mean equality... nor does "i and my father are one"

reply to post by Akragon

Im not really sure where your reply was going either way...

I'm a little ahead of you, maybe since I have had a few hours to think about this compared to a few minutes for you.
Thomas was basically calling Jesus the Messiah, here, while if it was actually calling him God, I think Christians would have been all over this verse in Psalms. Since they choose to ignore it, then it is safe to assume that this evidence I just presented goes against this being reinforcement for the divinity of Jesus but only supports this idea of Jesus being the King of the Jews, as it says elsewhere, or at least is implied. My point is that the Gospel of John makes all these implied assertions but they are all assertions to his kingship and not to his being God himself. Jesus is the I Am, like the angel was called the I Am, back in the Moses story, he is the one who carries the name of God, as the representation of God on Earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Ah i see what you're saying...

That i would believe... Gods representitive...

That falls in line with the rest of what he taught.

Though i prefer to think of him as "the example"

reply to post by Akragon

I'm just saying that when someone brings up this part about Thomas calling Jesus, "My Lord and My God" then here is an alternative explanation, other than the one about how the Roman Emperor was called that, but here is the dirty little secret, that the Israelites who made the Psalms, did exactly the same thing, and it has been kept under the rug this whole time, hoping no one would notice.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It seems to me Christians will use anything they can to prove he was God... sadly they have no scriptural evidence what so ever...

What they end up with is loosely based assumptions which go against what their own saviour taught...

This has been my arguement on these forums for some time now...

Its basically the churches attempting to show that their inturpretation is "more correct" then others....

Originally posted by akiros
I think that heaven and hell are meant to be metaphorical states of consciousness.
2nd line

I'd have to disagree. Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away". An absence of mourning, crying, and pain could be perceived as a metaphorical state of consciousness. But I think the part about death rules that out. You could be in whatever state of consciousness you so choose, but I'm pretty certain you'll still die.

Although I must confess I'm REALLY curious about the "no pain" part. And seeing the "New Jerusalem". I just love discussing what Heaven will be like. Can't wait to see it for myself!!