The big thread about being gay., page 8

reply to post by Helious

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Well, please forgive me my shortened answer as I am a little bit tired and wanted to participate at least share my thoughts on your questions... Disclosure: I am gay and HIV+ OK, now that that is out of the way....

First question:

1.) Gay marriage - Should it be allowed or should it not be allowed?

A: Emphatically NO!

Marriage is a religious institution and those religions that practice this ritual, do not accept homosexuality. Why would a gay couple want an "unloving" God to bless them right? That said, a CIVIL UNION would be a legal contract recognized by the government that would allow both men to feel equally miserable for the rest of their SHORT marriage (LOL)

Further, at the rate that gay couples get together and separate, imagine what it would do to an already boggled down court system.

2.) Gay rights - Is that even a real thing?

In my opinion, it is not so much "gay rights" as it is "HUMAN RIGHTS" we ALL deserve to be treated with respect regardless of who we love. (or don;t)

3.) Gay adoption - Seriously?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! NOT ALL but MOST gay men are too shallow and narcissistic to look beyond their nose, let alone an innocent child. Also, sexuality is something that I believe grows from within and I wouldn't want to influence that child one way or another.

The above goes against the common perception by gays but there are a few of us out there that are not ashamed to be gay but also recognize that just because I am, doesn't give me the right to claim special privileges. I take a lot of flack for my positions. I just accept that they are too shallow to see reality and just have a chip on their shoulder.

At the end of the day I am a decent man first and gay is not part of that equation.

reply to post by Kali74

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agreed. I see no problem with two guys or two girls raising a person. My friend is proof you don't need two parents to grow up "right". Sure she likes both guys and girls, but you know what, she is one of the kindest, gentlist, and most open being i know. I wish i could say the same for the people who think that their beliefs are so perfect, and refuse to acknowlegde anything else. But no, alot of you people that think that adoption and that sort is wrong, you are, for lack of a better term, ignorant cold hearted pieces of crap. have a nice day

Originally posted by Helious
The cold, hard fact of the matter is, the coupling of two people of the same sex is not natural and children should not be subjected too it,

Hi Helious,

The "it isn't natural" argument is such a straw man that it is running down a yellow brick road looking for a brain.

Of course it is natural ... that is why it happens in humans and across the animal kingdom extensively ... it is wasn't natural it wouldn't happen at all

Source

And why can't children be subjected to it ... they are subjected to heterosexual behaviour all the time and a lot of that is degrading, bigoted, abusive exploitation ...and what about homosexual children ... how can they feel supported and accepted if we tell them "it's not natural" ... what away to encourage suicide.

Suicide in LGBT

Originally posted by Helious A little thing called "propagation of the species" defines this point of view. We can't very well let our children be pre disposed to a lifestyle while they are impressionable that is not "normal" and by normal I mean it in the sense of propagation of the species, that is not the way and is not in the best interests of our children.

This is another straw man - Homosexuality has no magical effect of human biology. Homosexuals can still propagate just like heterosexuals ... however it is only a small percentage of homosexuals that choose to propagate ... but some do choose to propagate.

Gay couples have a wider range of choices when it comes to baby making than an infertile couple

Also, there is no evidence or research that supports the idea that homosexual couples raising children pre-desposes those children to being homosexual:

No increase in homosexuality from children in same sex families

The only argument that can be made against homosexuals and homosexuals having or raising kids are religious ones ... and they are just opinions ... just like the opinion that religion is a bad thing ...

Hey Kids! It's time for ErtaiNaGia's Semantics Fun Time Corner....

Today, we are going to discuss the word "Rights".

Are you ready class?



*OKAY!!!*

So, Let's Begin.


First off, Marriage is not a "Right" for anyone.

That's Right.... You heard me correctly.... Not One person on this planet has the *RIGHT* to get married.


A Right is something that You have INTRINSICALLY.... not something that is "Granted" to you by the Government, State, or whatever.

Go back and Re-Read the Declaration of independence, and the Constitution of the United States of America.

If you can actually comprehend the document, you will quickly realize that the Constitution does not GRANT you your rights, it merely prevents the STATE from infringing upon your rights.

That being Said... "Gay" people already have the same rights as everyone else.

Axiomatically, because they were born, and they are alive.

If you actually BELIEVE that Getting Married is a right.... then ask yourself this one simple question....


"What if no-one wanted to marry you?"

Do you still have the RIGHT to get married, if no-one actually wanted to get married to you?

Because if you are actually claiming that Getting Married is your "Right", then that would imply that you want to use GOVERNMENT FORCE to *MAKE* someone get married to you.

*******

Ok, now that we are done with the "Rights" portion of the debate... let us talk about "Marriage."

Now, there are TWO different "Types" of marriage, that are used FAR too interchangeably in this debate, and it causes (deliberately, probably) some amount of confusion.

1. There is Marriage in the *CLASSICAL* sense... in which two people vow *TO EACH-OTHER* to be faithful *TO EACH-OTHER*

If two people CHOSE to enter into this form of Relationship with each-other, that is their Right.

WE *ALL* have the RIGHT to enter into relationships *WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO AGREE TO ENTER INTO RELATIONSHIPS WITH US*

Individuals have the Rights to Do as they Wish with their own bodies, and lives, So long as it does not violate the rights of other people.

So, if two consenting individuals CHOOSE to enter into a relationship with each-other of their own Free will.... That is their mutual Right to do so.

2. The second form of Marriage that people keep getting confused about, is the *CONTRACT*

You do not have the Right to enter into a contract, with someone that does not CHOOSE to enter into a contract with you.

This includes the State.



And that is the MAIN problem that I see with "Gay Rights"

Their Activists are Brutally mangling language to their own ends... Claiming that "The Right to Love and Be loved" is synonymous with a Government Contract.



Let me break this down Further.

"I have the Right to love whoever I wish!"

This is true... but you do not have the RIGHT to be loved in return.

And the "Right" to love whoever you wish, is not the same as The "Right" to have the State enter into a relationship Contract with you.

*******


To put it in MORE simple terms....

Everyone has the RIGHT to voluntarily enter into a contract; and the Right to REFUSE to enter into a contract.

Contracts are BY DEFINITION, completely voluntary for all parties.

If the party that you WANT to enter into contract with, Does NOT WANT to enter into contract with YOU... You do not have the right to FORCE them to enter into contract... because that would be violating their Right to self determination.

Just as YOU wouldn't want someone forcing YOU to enter into a contract that you didn't want to enter into.



Because when you say "The Right to Love who you want" what you are *REALLY SAYING* is "The Right to enter into a contract with the state for relationship arbitration."

Because that is exactly what a marriage licence *IS*... it is a contract with the state, for them to have jurisdiction over your relationship (I.E. your mutual property.)

Some people would argue about the "Privileges" that married people get.... and claim that those are "Rights"

And this is patently false, for if they were REALLY Rights... You wouldn't even need to Be Married to get them.


Things like "Lowered Insurance" is not a right....

Things like "The hospital letting you see a patient" is not a right....

Things like "Adopting Children" is not a right....

You have the RIGHT to love whoever you want... because it's YOUR heart, you can give it to whoever you wish.

You do NOT have the right *TO BE LOVED* because that is NOT your heart, you cannot force other people to love you.

You do NOT have the Right to have children.... because Having children requires the Genetic material of Someone other than you....

Now, if Two people wish to Voluntarily have children with each-other... THAT is their right...

If One woman wants to have a Child, and the Doctor AGREES to provide the artificial insemination (That was voluntarily provided by a sperm doner), it is their RIGHT to enter into this Voluntary agreement.

*******

reply to post by FrankieNinja

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I don't agree with your statement marriage is Religious, Heck I have been married twice and and both times we didn't have anything to do with God in any of my Wedding day, to us at the time it was because we loved each other.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by FrankieNinja

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I don't agree with your statement marriage is Religious, Heck I have been married twice and and both times we didn't have anything to do with God in any of my Wedding day, to us at the time it was because we loved each other.

Maybe you were married twice because you didn't have anything to do with GOD. Most people begin an infatuation that can't stand up to the pressure of a REAL marriage where TWO people have to work. It's most likely a physical thing that dies out when they're bored. Or a series of arguments maybe centering around financial woes, who knows. You have to work at being married and it takes both people to really commit. Most people aren't that strong and it clearly shows.
If you can't commit to dying with the person you're married to, you're just whacking off without the finish.
It's time consuming and fun at first but ultimately useless and eventually leads to generations of miserable people looking for voids to fill in their lives by turning to everything from gambling and drugs to shopping and casual sex. Divorce is the status quo and is acceptable, even encouraged by pop culture misfits and filthy lawyers.The worst part is the creation of children with all kinds of screwed up emotional problems because their parents couldn't control their own egos or vanity or pride,lust, greed....you name it.
All because GOD isn't part of marriage. It's pure self centered egotism and sin that ruins the system and
there's plenty of people who choose to walk that pathway most willingly.
That's why people are apathetic and in despair and spread STDs like wild fire. Not because you can't get enough internet porn and alcohol or spend enough money on crap you don't need...but because at the end of the day you're nothing without family values and the gifts from God like children and peace that come with real WORK to make a successful marriage.

Originally posted by Saltarello
Problem is, they segregate themselves, they want to feel special for being gay, warm in the inside or something. I dont go around bragging about my heterosexuality (sp?) nor do I ask for "special" privileges, see adoptions and such.

Gay rights: why do they have to be special as to have "gay rights"?

Now, dont get me wrong, I have worked with people who was openly gay and never had a single issue, oddly enough some of the best chefs I know are gay. On the other hand, all those "GAY RIGHTS" people should get a grip and start acting as part of the society, not as some special kind of people.

*SNIP* Gay people push for "Gay Rights" because there are things that they are DENIED based upon their sexuality.

For instance - in most states you can be fired for being gay. There are 'protections/rights' for gender, religion, race, etc. -- but not for you who love. As if that affects your job performance at all.

Gay 'marriage' -- there are 1,138 benefits, rights and protections provided on the basis of marital status in Federal law. Gay people are denied those. Despite the fact they pay the SAME taxes heterosexuals pay. Social security, taxes, immigration, family and medical leave, employee benefits, etc. et. al. are all affected by the marital status.

And rearing children? for the OP. Every credible study shows that children raised in homosexual houses are every bit adjusted and successful as their counterparts in heterosexual homes, if not moreso.

At the heart of every argument against gay people there is either fear/homophobia or hatred. There is no rational opposition.

Even in the religious realm - many churchs/beliefs have done deep studies on the original semantics/linguistics/history of the scriptures pertaining to "homosexuality" - and have found the results to be wanting. Simply put, the Bible preaches against gay: rape, idolatry, and child prostitution. Same as heterosexual variants. And Jesus? Not a word on the subject.

If Christians took a Christlike approach on the subject, they'd shut their mouths. God doesn't need you to enforce his will - or to enforce your misconceived notions of what his will is.

edit on 2-12-2011 by oncemorethedrama because: (no reason given)

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Mod edit: Removed a personal comment. -- Majic

While many of us are, in a way, injecting our identities into the discussion, let's please remember to avoid personal commentary as much as possible.

Thanks.

reply to post by oncemorethedrama

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Gay 'marriage' -- there are 1,138 benefits, rights and protections provided on the basis of marital status in Federal law.

Then why aren't you arguing for Non-Married people to have those same "Rights"?

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