Being gay (graduated in 1981) it WAS a stigma. Grandparents, etc., asking "who are you seeing/with", etc.
People always asking the same thing. Going to gay bars, parking blocks away so nobody saw you there
(I had a VERY recognizable vehicle with collector plates) going out with "women" (something many gay men
today NEVER did, my partner included) because society has changed since back then.
Many older gay men had families-wifes/kids because of the stigma imposed upon them back 20-30+ years ago.
Having been in a relationship with someone who "inherited" a 9, 12 and 17 yr old because his brother died
and the mom was a crackhead and the state was going to take them away they were just SO happy to
let us have them (even here in fascist arizona). They understood the "2 daddy" thing and accepted it.
Kids today are more receptive to these things. We were loving, caring parents, and I would never have
my own kids, but it was special to me and them.
I do not believe in abortion being a choice (except for bad things-incest/rape etc) and am not very religious
I do believe in GOD, NOT Israel as being the chosen spot, Zionists, pedophiles, etc. but DO believe in adoption
within a positive environment regardless if it is mommy/daddy, daddy/daddy, mommy/mommy.
The youtube of the "mommy/mommy" boy railing against homophobia is an EXCELLENT video.
Growing up, I always recalled references to someones "bachelor" uncle or something. Never married. So sad.
Must have not ever met the special person. THEY WERE GAY back then when it was unmentionable.
Mom said she knew when I came out to her. Dad was "whatever". Grandparents I believe DID know
but it was just something that wasn't said/talked about.
NOW, that society has moved on "somewhat" with this issue, WHY is POT classified as bad as heroin?
Sorry, I never used a needle smoking in high school. AND, being HIV POS with eating issues
(oh thanks for the wonderful drugs which MANAGE my issues vs. getting cured) all the while
making the drug companies rich .
Sorry, just ranting here but had to say something.
Well, please forgive me my shortened answer as I am a little bit tired and wanted to participate at least share my thoughts on your questions...
Disclosure: I am gay and HIV+ OK, now that that is out of the way....
1.) Gay marriage - Should it be allowed or should it not be allowed?
A: Emphatically NO!
Marriage is a religious institution and those religions that practice this ritual, do not accept homosexuality. Why would a gay couple want an
"unloving" God to bless them right? That said, a CIVIL UNION would be a legal contract recognized by the government that would allow both men to
feel equally miserable for the rest of their SHORT marriage (LOL)
Further, at the rate that gay couples get together and separate, imagine what it would do to an already boggled down court system.
2.) Gay rights - Is that even a real thing?
In my opinion, it is not so much "gay rights" as it is "HUMAN RIGHTS" we ALL deserve to be treated with respect regardless of who we love. (or
3.) Gay adoption - Seriously?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! NOT ALL but MOST gay men are too shallow and narcissistic to look beyond their nose, let alone an innocent child. Also, sexuality is
something that I believe grows from within and I wouldn't want to influence that child one way or another.
The above goes against the common perception by gays but there are a few of us out there that are not ashamed to be gay but also recognize that just
because I am, doesn't give me the right to claim special privileges. I take a lot of flack for my positions. I just accept that they are too shallow
to see reality and just have a chip on their shoulder.
At the end of the day I am a decent man first and gay is not part of that equation.
I really can't see why people have such a problem with gay people. The only difference between you and them is where they choose to put their
genitals. That's it. They are just as capable of love, caring, and respect as anyone else. As for the whole against nature thing, well look around
you. We as humans do so many things that are against nature already with computers, cellphones, cars, airplanes, medicine, etc. that it just seems
dumb to make it an issue. We aren't meant to fly or drive cars or anything, but we do. And I realize that they can't create a life themselves, and
to keep the human race going we need to procreate, but with over 7 BILLION people on this earth already I'd hardly say that we are at any risk of
dying off due to lack of procreation. If anything we need to stop having so many kids. What we do have a problem with is children without homes or
parents of any sort and if a gay couple want to adopt a child to help alleviate some of the problem then I'm all for it. Sex only has one function
and that is to create a life, what really matters is love and a caring relationship between individuals to help us grow not only as individuals but as
humans as a whole. People need to stop worrying about such petty differences that not only hurt us, but divide us further from each other.
Eight pages of discussing the private sex lives of consenting adults and what rights they have based on those private choices and it's only about the
500th thread on the subject in my less than a year on ATS. Meanwhile two threads on the same page discuss the FACT that our 1st Amendment Rights are
being diminished. More threads on police brutality. It's 2011 and here in America our freedoms and Constitutional Rights are under serious threat and
here we have people saying take more away because "they" are different than "me"
Gay people have had the right (lol as it should have always been) to adopt children for 15 years or more and still "you" haven't adjusted. I wonder
if all great societies fall apart because no one can get past little discomforts of difference and focus on the huge atrocities enacted by a
government on it's own people.
agreed. I see no problem with two guys or two girls raising a person. My friend is proof you don't need two parents to grow up "right". Sure she
likes both guys and girls, but you know what, she is one of the kindest, gentlist, and most open being i know. I wish i could say the same for the
people who think that their beliefs are so perfect, and refuse to acknowlegde anything else. But no, alot of you people that think that adoption and
that sort is wrong, you are, for lack of a better term, ignorant cold hearted pieces of crap. have a nice day
And why can't children be subjected to it ... they are subjected to heterosexual behaviour all the time and a lot of that is degrading, bigoted,
abusive exploitation ...and what about homosexual children ... how can they feel supported and accepted if we tell them "it's not natural" ... what
away to encourage suicide.
Originally posted by Helious A little thing called "propagation of the species" defines this point of view. We can't very well let
our children be pre disposed to a lifestyle while they are impressionable that is not "normal" and by normal I mean it in the sense of propagation
of the species, that is not the way and is not in the best interests of our children.
This is another straw man - Homosexuality has no magical effect of human biology. Homosexuals can still propagate just like heterosexuals ... however
it is only a small percentage of homosexuals that choose to propagate ... but some do choose to propagate.
The only argument that can be made against homosexuals and homosexuals having or raising kids are religious ones ... and they are just opinions ...
just like the opinion that religion is a bad thing ...
I will say this again... and again... and again if I have to.
Why in the name of everything improperly named holy do you CARE what I DO in my BEDROOM?! Why does it even MATTER whether or not two men or two women
And I know a gay couple who are currently raising a little girl and they are doing a damn good job of it. I see more problems in heterosexual couples
raising babies than in homosexual couples doing the same thing.
If anything, perhaps it will teach them to have a bit more TOLERANCE than the bigoted generations of before.
Hey Kids! It's time for ErtaiNaGia's Semantics Fun Time Corner....
Today, we are going to discuss the word "Rights".
Are you ready class?
So, Let's Begin.
First off, Marriage is not a "Right" for anyone.
That's Right.... You heard me correctly.... Not One person on this planet has the *RIGHT* to get married.
A Right is something that You have INTRINSICALLY.... not something that is "Granted" to you by the Government, State, or whatever.
Go back and Re-Read the Declaration of independence, and the Constitution of the United States of America.
If you can actually comprehend the document, you will quickly realize that the Constitution does not GRANT you your rights, it merely prevents the
STATE from infringing upon your rights.
That being Said... "Gay" people already have the same rights as everyone else.
Axiomatically, because they were born, and they are alive.
If you actually BELIEVE that Getting Married is a right.... then ask yourself this one simple question....
"What if no-one wanted to marry you?"
Do you still have the RIGHT to get married, if no-one actually wanted to get married to you?
Because if you are actually claiming that Getting Married is your "Right", then that would imply that you want to use GOVERNMENT FORCE to *MAKE*
someone get married to you.
Ok, now that we are done with the "Rights" portion of the debate... let us talk about "Marriage."
Now, there are TWO different "Types" of marriage, that are used FAR too interchangeably in this debate, and it causes (deliberately, probably) some
amount of confusion.
1. There is Marriage in the *CLASSICAL* sense... in which two people vow *TO EACH-OTHER* to be faithful *TO EACH-OTHER*
If two people CHOSE to enter into this form of Relationship with each-other, that is their Right.
WE *ALL* have the RIGHT to enter into relationships *WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO AGREE TO ENTER INTO RELATIONSHIPS WITH US*
Individuals have the Rights to Do as they Wish with their own bodies, and lives, So long as it does not violate the rights of other people.
So, if two consenting individuals CHOOSE to enter into a relationship with each-other of their own Free will.... That is their mutual Right to do
2. The second form of Marriage that people keep getting confused about, is the *CONTRACT*
You do not have the Right to enter into a contract, with someone that does not CHOOSE to enter into a contract with you.
This includes the State.
And that is the MAIN problem that I see with "Gay Rights"
Their Activists are Brutally mangling language to their own ends... Claiming that "The Right to Love and Be loved" is synonymous with a Government
Let me break this down Further.
"I have the Right to love whoever I wish!"
This is true... but you do not have the RIGHT to be loved in return.
And the "Right" to love whoever you wish, is not the same as The "Right" to have the State enter into a relationship Contract with you.
To put it in MORE simple terms....
Everyone has the RIGHT to voluntarily enter into a contract; and the Right to REFUSE to enter into a contract.
Contracts are BY DEFINITION, completely voluntary for all parties.
If the party that you WANT to enter into contract with, Does NOT WANT to enter into contract with YOU... You do not have the right to FORCE them to
enter into contract... because that would be violating their Right to self determination.
Just as YOU wouldn't want someone forcing YOU to enter into a contract that you didn't want to enter into.
Because when you say "The Right to Love who you want" what you are *REALLY SAYING* is "The Right to enter into a contract with the state for
Because that is exactly what a marriage licence *IS*... it is a contract with the state, for them to have jurisdiction over your relationship (I.E.
your mutual property.)
Some people would argue about the "Privileges" that married people get.... and claim that those are "Rights"
And this is patently false, for if they were REALLY Rights... You wouldn't even need to Be Married to get them.
Things like "Lowered Insurance" is not a right....
Things like "The hospital letting you see a patient" is not a right....
Things like "Adopting Children" is not a right....
You have the RIGHT to love whoever you want... because it's YOUR heart, you can give it to whoever you wish.
You do NOT have the right *TO BE LOVED* because that is NOT your heart, you cannot force other people to love you.
You do NOT have the Right to have children.... because Having children requires the Genetic material of Someone other than you....
Now, if Two people wish to Voluntarily have children with each-other... THAT is their right...
If One woman wants to have a Child, and the Doctor AGREES to provide the artificial insemination (That was voluntarily provided by a sperm doner), it
is their RIGHT to enter into this Voluntary agreement.
And then you have the Arguments about "Well, Heterosexuals have the RIGHT to marry whoever they want to!"
This is such a blatant lie, it is not even funny to me...
What if a Heterosexual woman wanted to marry a 5 year old boy? Does she have that Right?
What if a Heterosexual man wanted to marry Angelina Jolie? Does he have that Right?
What if someone wanted to marry a Cartoon Character? Do they have that Right?
No... Indeed... Heterosexual people don't have the "Right" to marry whoever they wish.... They can only Marry those who fit into certain
1. Must be a Real Human Being
2. Must be of the opposite Sex
3. Must be Legally of Age to enter into contract
4. MUST BE WILLING.
5. Must not already be Married.
Now... Homosexual people have the Exact same "Rights" (as you would call them) of marriage as heterosexual people.
What you are arguing FOR, is not "Equal Rights"... You are actually Arguing to force the government to Enter into Marriage Licence Contracts with a
wider variety of possible Relationship Combinations.
And this is the main "Problem" that I have with the "Gay Rights Movement"... The butchering of Language, and meaning.
IT's basically the Exact same thing, as Saying "We want the whole world to be Free!"
And then, in the name of this "Freedom"... Bombing Innocent Civilians, and Children.
Then, when asked to justify your actions, Replying:
"Doesn't Everyone deserve to be Free?"
"Why do you hate Freedom?"
Now, All of that being Said... I am not against the concept of people of the same sex having relationships with each-other, Because I happen to Value
the concept of Free Will, Self Determination, and Freedom of Action.
As I must, because I recognize what Rights ARE....
But if you are going to argue about something... Don't lie about what it is.
Because I'll be watching.
The "Gay Rights" argument is not about Equal Rights.... it is about expanding the State Issued Marriage contract to include more types of
You only use the term "Equal Rights", because it sounds good.
I don't agree with your statement marriage is Religious, Heck I have been married twice and and both times we didn't have anything to do with God
in any of my Wedding day, to us at the time it was because we loved each other.
People can be gay if they want and raise kids if they want as long as they raise the kid right. But that being said i think negative karma is
associated with being gay, if u were born in a male body and u act like a girl and have sex with men then your gonna need to learn to attracted to
woman sooner or later because thats the way it is, Being gay is out of balance imo. But being straight and attracted to females i couldnt just switch
my sexual oreintation so i dont know, as long as gays arent being all flamboyant and in my face i dont care what they do in the privacy of their own
I don't agree with your statement marriage is Religious, Heck I have been married twice and and both times we didn't have anything to do with God in
any of my Wedding day, to us at the time it was because we loved each other.
Maybe you were married twice because you didn't have anything to do with GOD. Most people begin an infatuation that can't stand up to the pressure of
a REAL marriage where TWO people have to work. It's most likely a physical thing that dies out when they're bored. Or a series of arguments maybe
centering around financial woes, who knows. You have to work at being married and it takes both people to really commit. Most people aren't that
strong and it clearly shows.
If you can't commit to dying with the person you're married to, you're just whacking off without the finish.
It's time consuming and fun at first but ultimately useless and eventually leads to generations of miserable people looking for voids to fill in their
lives by turning to everything from gambling and drugs to shopping and casual sex. Divorce is the status quo and is acceptable, even encouraged by pop
culture misfits and filthy lawyers.The worst part is the creation of children with all kinds of screwed up emotional problems because their parents
couldn't control their own egos or vanity or pride,lust, greed....you name it.
All because GOD isn't part of marriage. It's pure self centered egotism and sin that ruins the system and
there's plenty of people who choose to walk that pathway most willingly.
That's why people are apathetic and in despair and spread STDs like wild fire. Not because you can't get enough internet porn and alcohol or spend
enough money on crap you don't need...but because at the end of the day you're nothing without family values and the gifts from God like children and
peace that come with real WORK to make a successful marriage.
edit on 2-12-2011 by Godofgamblers because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Saltarello
Problem is, they segregate themselves, they want to feel special for being gay, warm in the inside or something. I dont go around bragging about my
heterosexuality (sp?) nor do I ask for "special" privileges, see adoptions and such.
Gay rights: why do they have to be special as to have "gay rights"?
Now, dont get me wrong, I have worked with people who was openly gay and never had a single issue, oddly enough some of the best chefs I know are gay.
On the other hand, all those "GAY RIGHTS" people should get a grip and start acting as part of the society, not as some special kind of people.
*SNIP* Gay people push for "Gay Rights" because there are things that they are DENIED based upon their sexuality.
For instance - in most states you can be fired for being gay. There are 'protections/rights' for gender, religion, race, etc. -- but not for you who
love. As if that affects your job performance at all.
Gay 'marriage' -- there are 1,138 benefits, rights and protections provided on the basis of marital status in Federal law. Gay people are denied
those. Despite the fact they pay the SAME taxes heterosexuals pay. Social security, taxes, immigration, family and medical leave, employee benefits,
etc. et. al. are all affected by the marital status.
And rearing children? for the OP. Every credible study shows that children raised in homosexual houses are every bit adjusted and successful as their
counterparts in heterosexual homes, if not moreso.
At the heart of every argument against gay people there is either fear/homophobia or hatred. There is no rational opposition.
Even in the religious realm - many churchs/beliefs have done deep studies on the original semantics/linguistics/history of the scriptures pertaining
to "homosexuality" - and have found the results to be wanting. Simply put, the Bible preaches against gay: rape, idolatry, and child prostitution.
Same as heterosexual variants. And Jesus? Not a word on the subject.
If Christians took a Christlike approach on the subject, they'd shut their mouths. God doesn't need you to enforce his will - or to enforce your
misconceived notions of what his will is.
edit on 2-12-2011 by oncemorethedrama because: (no reason given)
why would anyone discriminate against gays? why would a homosexual have less rights than a heterosexual? If you cannot understand being attracted to
the same sex, how do you know what those who are gay are feeling? Are you imagining what it feels like to be attracted to the same sex and then
getting disgusted for whatever reason and then transferring your repulsion to gays? How is this mature in any way?
Well OP eat your words because supporting
gay marriage is supporting them being able raise
children through artificial sperm planting
Give people an inch they take it a mile.
SOOOO give a pat on the back..
don't care if gays marry
but they can't have kid's?
Again if they should be able to get married
then they should be able to have kid's just like
The whole thing IS A Have one's cake and eat it too
they want to raise children like normal heterosexual
people without the normal part there internal instincts
say that they WANT NEED CHILDREN to raise like normal heterosexuals....
edit on 2-12-2011 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)
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