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Has the UK Ministry of Defence finally lost the plot.

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RAB

posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:15 AM
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Has the UK MOD lost the plot? Discuss

1. The early withdrawal of the Jaguer GR3 a heavily upgraded and very useful strike and recon aircraft.

2. The draw dawn in the numbers of Tornado F3 ADF. An excellent BVR interceptor.

3. The purchase of the Typhoon an excellent aircraft but to save tiny amounts of cash we WILL not buy any ammo. (Not a real problem we can make the stuff quickly if we need to)

4. We are STILL using the Canaberra for photo recon, we only have 4 left and one of them crashed on a training mission killing two and seriously injuring the other.

My plan:

Moving the remaining Jags to replace the Canaberra.
Add alarm missiles capability to All the F3s making them a very useful little plane,
Buy some rounds for the Typhoon.

The MOD is banging on about intelligence and network enabled capability but if you cannot defended your own country and have the forces left to make things go bang there isnt really any point!


[edit on 6-9-2004 by John bull 1]




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 04:20 AM
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its not the MOD,its the goverment.
the MOD are doing what they can with what they have, i mean they dont get the moeny they need. iwouldnt be suprised if britain turned neutral cause of the idiots we have in westminster.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
its not the MOD,its the goverment.
the MOD are doing what they can with what they have, i mean they dont get the moeny they need. iwouldnt be suprised if britain turned neutral cause of the idiots we have in westminster.


I know, i want to join the RAF but now i have some serious doubts.......whats the point? Who wants to fly out of date planes with no ammo?
The UK needs to start investing some serious dough into its military or we will end up like pre ww2 France.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by RAB
Has the UK MOD lost the plot? Discuss


GOvernments have to compromise when they do not have enough money. I think that the UK would like to cut the number of Typhoons if they could but can't because they would have to pay penalties to the other countries.

My question for the UK posters is: Does the UK run a budget deficit? Or do they balance it each year? If they do, and the MOD does not have enough money then you have to either cut back on purchases, or reduce capacities.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:03 AM
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i personally hate hoon for most of his decisions but this has got to be the worst...our military definitely needs and deserves much better funding.

ps: does anyone know if they closed RAF sealand because of this?



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by RAB
Has the UK MOD lost the plot? Discuss


GOvernments have to compromise when they do not have enough money. I think that the UK would like to cut the number of Typhoons if they could but can't because they would have to pay penalties to the other countries.

My question for the UK posters is: Does the UK run a budget deficit? Or do they balance it each year? If they do, and the MOD does not have enough money then you have to either cut back on purchases, or reduce capacities.



No offence but that argument is a cop out. The UK is one of the richest countries in the world and could easily afford an excellent military but they choose to waste money on other things.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by ufo3



No offence but that argument is a cop out. The UK is one of the richest countries in the world and could easily afford an excellent military but they choose to waste money on other things.

i really want to know where it all goes, mabye we should go rpivate on medical but that would be really exspensive.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:36 AM
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All the taxpayers money goes on shoring up Blairs corrupt goverment. Hes purpously wearing our country down on every level to make us more dependant on the Communist Bloc in waiting: The EU.

Our millitary is a victim to that mans evil vision.

We have a country of 60 million people and all we need is one person with the guts and a gun and the luck, to sort it out.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz
All the taxpayers money goes on shoring up Blairs corrupt goverment


And the facist royal family,
Wheres cromwell when you need him



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:43 AM
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dude thats sorta like kinda revolutionary speaking.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
dude thats sorta like kinda revolutionary speaking.


shhhhh

Republic would prove alot better in the long run



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz
All the taxpayers money goes on shoring up Blairs corrupt goverment. Hes purpously wearing our country down on every level to make us more dependant on the Communist Bloc in waiting: The EU.


- I haven't had such a good laugh in ages. Thanks.

The EU is communist now is it? LMFAO. You should write and warn all those capitalists the world over (but especailly in the USA) investing so heavily in it!



Our millitary is a victim to that mans evil vision.


- Is he like The Hood' in Thunderbirds? (the original series) Do you think his (evil) eyes (remember them? lol) light up when he 'commands' people?



We have a country of 60 million people and all we need is one person with the guts and a gun and the luck, to sort it out.


- Interesting form of 'politics' you approve of there fascist child-mind, here's hoping it doesn't get used on those duly elected that you approve of.


Awwwww nevermind; you'll just have to suck it up when he wins by landslide number 3 in spring 05 or 06 (the first past the post system and the current polling numbers practically guarantee it)

........................................................................................................................
As for the other comments here?

The UK gov budget is currently in deficit. But it is not historically high (strangely it is numerically but when figures are adjusted to take inflation into account it isn't as high as it has been).

Over the 'economic cycle' it remains, broadly speaking, in balance and thanks to substantial repayments the national debt has been markedly reduced in recent years which has reduced the interest payments on it by several billions.

The UK isn't spending large amounts on a huge military because those days are over. By every sane reckoning there just is no need for them right now. A review by professionals has just been completed and yet again it concurs.

This a concern for people like ufo3 who might consider joining the RAF but it has always been so (Vulcans?) post war and it is not something confined to the RAF alone (B52's decades older than their crews, anyone?)

It could be worse for the tech fans. Historically some weaponary was around for centuries with little or no improvement, armies didn't really change for hundreds of years. Maybe we are coming into one of those periods now?

If a lunatic came along who truely did attempt to build up forces that threaten the sovereignty of the UK there would be ample early warning as such things can be seen and cannot just happen overnight. A latter day Hitler springing an almost fully formed military on the world like happened in the mid/late 1930's isn't going to happen.

That leaves the so-called 'terrorist threat' for which our current forces are quite sufficient. Al Quada or whoever aren't going to build an army, airforce or navy to defeat the BA, RN or RAF.

A conventional stand-up fight isn't what those people are about.

I realise that doesn't mean 'we' can easily walk into any country 'we' feel like and expect a 'cake-walk'...... but then why should 'we' be able to do that? The USA with vastly larger forces cannot, as current events clearly show, expect that either, so should the UK be planning to top their numbers in that case? 'Iraqs', sadly for those concerned, are never going to be cost-free no matter what 'we' spend.

Where would you stop with kind of mentality, should 'we' be building to take over China right now? Such ideas of global domination are a never-ending quest that can only eventually lead to defeat or internal collapse.

The net of all this is that UK military forces are perfectly sufficient (particularly when our alliances are taken into account) to protect our national territory and our interests.

.....and BTW I agree that a republic would be much superior to a Monarchy.







[edit on 6-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 11:18 AM
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'The net of all this is that UK military forces are perfectly sufficient (particularly when our alliances are taken into account) to protect our national territory and our interests'.

I have seen first hand that this statement is WRONG nobody knows what is around the corner. What happens if we get another situation like the falklands? The answer right now is that we would be unable to respond
effectively, our navy is much smaller than it was 20 yrs ago and there arent
many new ships to replace the old ones leaving service.
Where does this leave the uk?

Oh thats right the UN will come to our rescue......wont it? No By the time it sorts through its indecision and blundering it would be to late, we need our own military that can act independantly if necessary.

The world does not have room for naive complaicancy,just look what happened in 1939.We were completely unprepared and that should never happen again, just because a huge military buildup cannot go undetected anymore it doesnt mean there is no need for a sizeable and capable military deterant.




[edit on 6-9-2004 by ufo3]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by devilwasp
dude thats sorta like kinda revolutionary speaking.


shhhhh

Republic would prove alot better in the long run


Republic means EU.

The Royal Family are figureheads nothing more, i say keep em just to keep the tourism trade alive.

nah the real power is Traitor Tony and his merry ban of Traitors.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by ufo3
I have seen first hand that this statement is WRONG nobody knows what is around the corner.


- Yeah OK so no-one can see the future, so we go by the most plausible possibilities we can. We are helped massively these days thanks to a global surveilance so comprehensive that no-one can do anything major without being seen - as well as a global economy which makes spending on something so huge an undertaking impossible to do in a sneaky manner.

Which is what reviews by professionals and experts are all about.

Which they have just had.


What happens if we get another situation like the falklands? The answer right now is that we would be unable to respond
effectively, our navy is much smaller than it was 20 yrs ago and there arent
many new ships to replace the old ones leaving service.
Where does this leave the uk?


- Well in the peacetime right now it leaves the UK with a Falklands Island situation much much better in terms of their potential defence than in the peacetime before the last war.

RAF Mount Pleasant is the RAF's newest airfield. It is a well equipped and defended base with a huge runway and long taxiways (built to US specs too I believe), Tristars can and do easily use it.

With tensions low 4 Tornado F3's are stationed there. Tornado is an aircraft by good fortune most suited to the situation. It can take off and land in a very short space having been designed to operate in a european environment where it was expected runways would be hit hard and take-off distances needed to be short.....so rendering the runway out of action to them would be extremely difficult...even if the Argentians had kit capable of doing it, which they don't.

I suppose they could try a multiple suicide attack and try and get through the missile screens. That's not very likely though is it? They have what, 30 1960's rebuilt Skyhawks? Wow. Some thirsty old Mirage/Dagger/Kfirs? I'm underwhelmed.

Tornado is far more modern, has enormous range, very long loiter, an effective ultra long range modern track while scan multiple target radar, 4x AMRAAMs and 4x ASRAAMs.

Given that the Argentine aircraft are not all down in the tip of Argentina facing these guys - and any movement would be seen - and most of their airforce is almost entirely unsuited (in terms of weapons fit and range) to attempting to rerun that war I fail to see what you are so worried about.

It's just not possible for them to attempt to do it again without a long period of warning as aircraft and personnel moved to closer airfields in any future possible attempt.


Oh thats right the UN will come to our rescue......wont it? No By the time it sorts through its indecision and blundering it would be to late, we need our own military that can act independantly if necessary.


- This is just absurd prejudice. That would not be what would happen.

In a time of increased tension or Argentine movement the islands would be reinforced by the RAF.

Despite your silly imaginings the fact is it would be political suicide for any UK gov not to.


The world does not have room for naive complaicancy,just look what happened in 1939.We were completely unprepared and that should never happen again, just because a huge military buildup cannot go undetected anymore it doesnt mean there is no need for a sizeable and capable military deterant.


- What are you talking about? What threat are you insisting on deterring? Who are 'we' supposed to prepare for? The 1930's are never coming back.

A military build up of the kind you seem to imagine would cost a vast amounts of money, specialist material resources and intellectual resources(something else that would not go unnoticed), be very very visible and to claim the UK (and our allies) are 'falling behind' anyone is pure fantasy.

The truth is that the nation and territory of the UK is under threat from nobody that a marginally expanded military would deter. Those that do threaten us couldn't care less about the size of our military. They aren't about taking them on anyway.






[edit on 6-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz
nah the real power is Traitor Tony and his merry ban of Traitors.


He is taking this country to the grave,
If he gets re-elected, im out of here



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by rustiswordz
nah the real power is Traitor Tony and his merry ban of Traitors.


He is taking this country to the grave,
If he gets re-elected, im out of here


- Yeah, join the list....Frank Bruno, Paul Daniels blah blah blah.

'Course the flood that would pack up and go if that particularly ghastly Tory Howard and his party got in would just be unimaginable!

Best make your arrangements then cos with the way the first past the post electoral system works and the polling numbers everyone is getting (and has been getting for years) TB and Co. are set to walk the next one.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 05:51 PM
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you dont know how bad it is for the genral british army squaddie sminkey, they get 20 rounds apeice. when they go out on patrols they swap flack jackets with the ones comeing off patrols.
i would rather have a better military than some tourist attraction.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:30 PM
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[edit on 6-9-2004 by thesaint]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Yeah OK so no-one can see the future, so we go by the most plausible possibilities we can. We are helped massively these days thanks to a global surveilance so comprehensive that no-one can do anything major without being seen

what if an ally is playing you, not making their true intent seen, building up against you right in front of you, they could do that especially to leaders who think such a thing is impossible, why do you think the US has a plan for every country incase they turn on us? the UK should have such plans and the ability to execute them too with impunity.



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