Its funny that you mention that in the painting of the last supper there are no " cups." From what i have read the word Grail comes from the Latin gradale which means "a dish brought to the table during various stages or courses of a meal."
So perhaps if the Grail existed at all it was not a cup or drinking vessel but the dish Jesus ate from at his last meal.
Over the years the Grail has taken many shapes and forms, Wolfram Von Eschenbach's Parzival portrays the Grail as a stone that gives sustenance and prevents death.
The Grail legend didn't really become popular until the late 12th early 13th Century. It was brought into the Arthurian legend by Robert de Boron when he wrote his Romance Joseph d'Arimathie sometime in the early 1300's. At the time the concept of Courtly love was coming into fashion and Knights of the time were caught up in the whole Chivalry thing.
But i think the Grail, and this is my personal opinion, is a kind of metaphor for the ideals that the Knights of old Europe held so dear. Loyalty, Chastity, Honour and sacrifice. If you read the Grail legends they are full of hardship, disappointment and sacrifice. The quest was the important thing the journey of self discovery, of a Knight testing his endurance and skill by taking up the Quest for a Holy and magical object that always seems to be just out of their reach. For the Knights of legend, Sir Perceval and Sir Galahad the quest for the Grail was a test of faith.
So perhaps the Grail does exist, not as an object but as an article of faith in the hearts of those who wish to believe.

are there any dark age recounts of the grail?

Originally posted by junior_smith
are there any dark age recounts of the grail?

None from the dark ages or the the Medieval age. Just stories and rumours. I don't doubt that they believed objects like the Grail and the True Cross existed but i doubt anyone actually found them. The was a thriving trade in fake relics at the time and Towns and Cities could make a fortune by displaying the Toe bone of a Saint or a piece of wood from the True Cross. But no there are no verifiable historical accounts of anyone finding the Grail,

Originally posted by Scat
Here's a question. Who in fact came up with this "everlasting life" fable? If true happiness is found through death....and meeting God....and being in heaven...why would you ever want to live forever? This doesn't seem like a reward for finding the grail in a Christian mindset, it seems like a punishment.

The "everlasting life" as spoken of by Jesus has always referred to in heaven, not here on earth. I can see where people way back when may have taken this a step further, but why anyone in this day and age would presume mortal immortality is beyond me.

If the cup were to be found it can never be "proved" anyway, it would be debated forever afterwards, just like all other relics from this time.

This leaves the only significance of the cup itself (in my opinion) to be, what is it's current location at this point, for whatever else may or may not be found with it.

Originally posted by Janus

Originally posted by junior_smith
are there any dark age recounts of the grail?

The was a thriving trade in fake relics at the time and Towns and Cities could make a fortune by displaying the Toe bone of a Saint or a piece of wood from the True Cross.

You're right, of course. The Catholic Church even called the collecting of Icons "Religion in it's grossest form" and thus coined the term "fetishism."

But if the real reason people collect these things is to feel closer to God, what's the big deal? (unless they suddenly lose the icon. Then, like a kid losing his security blanket, they feel lost.)

The only reason I want to find the Grail is because if the Bible is correct,(And I'm SURE it is...)then the Grail exists and belongs in public view.

Also, unlike every other icon, THIS one has a paper trail to follow. Joseph of Arimathaea was rich. He got that way as a importer of Tin, a valuble metal needed in the making of bronze. We've already proven that there were Jewish settlements in Southern Gaul (Now called France) and the Tin mines have been rediscovered.

There seems to be very little dispute that he was Jesus's grand-uncle on his mother's side. Also, it seems he did a great deal of business traveling to and fro between Gaul and Jerusalem. It makes perfect sense that if the Romans were a major customer of his, then he was also WELL AQUAINTED with Roman territories, including Britain.

I'll keep ya posted when new info comes up.

Quote: "The Priory of Sion are said to be protecting not a literal cup of life, but the original pagan symbolic meaning of 'Holy grail'; the Holy Femininity. The pagans worshipped among other things a number of Female gods who were said to be the Creators."



Ezekiel -> You have made a very Relevant statement!

Originally "Elohim" = Those who came from the Sky (yes PLURAL) - also had a Male & Female Aspect
(i.e. Aloha). In Original Judaism & Christianity BOTH the Male & Female energies/attributes were considered Divine. The "Creator" was considered a "Hermaphrodite" with Both Male & Female Attributes (i.e. GOD the Father & Mother Earth/Mother Nature/Holy Spirit). The Pagan Religions also followed this line of Thought! The Hexagram (the Hermetic Symbol Meaning "As Above - So Below") can also be seen as a Symbol of the Interlocking Masculine & Feminine!

Unfortunately as Judaism & Christianity developed - a kind of Patriarchal Mentality developed were MEN were considered Superior to Women. At that Point GOD or the Creator developed “His” Masculine Aspects. Women were then lowered to the Status of Property or Chattel after that - it took a LOT of effort for Modern Feminism to work its way out of that! Judaism, Christianity & Islam continue to hold on to this belief that a Man has more Authority than a Woman (simply because of Gender) - that Woman are simply good for Cooking & Bearing Children. Ironically the Pagans held onto the idea of Gods & Goddesses - that both aspects were part of Nature - Hence Part of the Divine!

P.S. YAHVEH = Jehovah = Jove = Adonai = JUPITER = ZEUS (the Angry Vengeful "Control Freak" God)

So how much different is Judaism & Paganism & Christianity after all - can we just please stop with the Superiority Complex? Perhaps we are ALL just HUMAN in the end!

On an Interesting side note:

Quote: "Was Jesus a CARPENTER? The Greek word "tekton" is literally a *Stonecutter*. The term was only later understood to include carpentry, since so much woodwork was involved in squaring, raising, conveying and fitting stones together."

Fascinating! So would that not make Jesus' Profession "Masonry" - until he switched to Ministry/Preaching that is!

[edit on 30-4-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I sorta turn towards beleiving what the Da Vinci Code says about it. Not all of it, since much of it is probably just fiction, but some of it could be true...

I believe that Jesus was married, and probably had kids (allthough I'm sure that by now the bloodline has died out). Jesus, son of god or not, was still a man, he was human like the rest of us. I think that it is highly possible that he had a wife and kids. I also believe that Mary Magdalene wasn't a prostitute. I think that was something the Christian Church made up to cover the fact that Jesus did in fact have a wife, and was a man like others.

This is just my opinion, I'm not really Christian so I don't really believe all that much in what the church tells you.


This is my final statement.

That was in the past, and we need not worry so much about it. If we did find the 'grail', or other papers that prove things, we will probably regret it.

I think the fun about living now...is that we don't know for sure what happened then...if we knew all about our past...not many things would surprise us...


Thats just my opinion...so...yeah...Peace out

As I recall, even the church has apologized for the "prostitute" label...as in the book it is actually ascribed to another I believe...would have to check to be certain...

I'd like to know where you got the idea that Mary was a prostitute? Due to the fact I've never found sources older then the 9th century that say that. :|

Originally posted by Scat
Here's a question. Who in fact came up with this "everlasting life" fable? If true happiness is found through death....and meeting God....and being in heaven...why would you ever want to live forever? This doesn't seem like a reward for finding the grail in a Christian mindset, it seems like a punishment.

Wow, a very interesting theory - it seems completely viable. Attaining the path to Heaven seems to be what all Christians try to do all their lives. To find out there is no way of ascending would be a major cop-out.

However it would probably be more benificial for non-christians looking to take advantage of a possible truth (along the lines of 'Weekly World News 'truth') to atain eternal life to see what would happen in teh future.

But who would seriously want to live for ever? You would see everyone you know die, for however traditional generations you survive thats a life time of friends GONE. Can you stand to work for hundreds of years? I can barely last out the week. And face it- taxes need to be paid even if you are immortal (hmm unless if its impossible to starve to death (seeing your immortal) - NO FOOD BILLS - yay!).

Now I'm rambling.

I also believe that the Grail is the bloodline and I'm willing to partake in a research project when it arises. Has anyone read The Holy blood and the holy grail? There is alot of interesting stuff in there.

Well, if the scriptures are to be believed (and yes, I believe them) Then Jesus didn't drink ANY wine during the last supper. Start reading at Matthew 26:27 and you can confirm it. The same thing is stated in Mark, starting at 14:25 and in Luke, starting at 22:17.

He did, on the other hand, eat. I'm holding to my original line that the Holy Grail is more like a sedar plate.

Well, I have to ask this one: The apostles ate and drank from the same plates and cups...why aren't any of THEM still around?

However, I can see where immortality has an "up side, and a down side". Assuming I would be ETERNALY YOUTHFUL, yeah, I could have a GOOD time with it. But remember, we're talking about ETERNITY here. How do you deal with whomever takes over the planet, after Mankind becomes an obsolete species?

THEN you have the problem of being stuck in a zoo, labeled as some kind of missing link!

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Toelint]

I hate to be the one to crack this little gem... but the "Legend of the Holy Grail" was a myth put out by the Protectors of the original scrolls of Jesus. Read the "Hiram Key", despite the history prior to Jesus being researched by simply going to a local institution... the history proposed in A.D. is well researched.

Originally posted by parker
I guess when i speak of the grail its with a little bit of apathy,in the context of remote viewing it as just an object.however this object could lead you to more interesting posibilities.

In its context as a target it is just a cup, now if you could speak to the owner that would be something.One person who claims to have done just that is Joseph Mcmoneagle. He was one of the original viewers in the US military and one of the best. In his book The Ultimate Time Machine Mcmoneagle has a chapter in this book under( historical explorations) called "The Jesus Transcript" it took place in 1983 and his monitor was the founder of the Monroe institute Robert Monroe. In this transcript Mcmoneagle alludes to several physical manifestations of Jesus on Earth during different time periods in its pre-history.

according to the transcript "the life as chroicled is inacurate" when asked how by monitor RM he goes on to say that ."There was an awful lot left out.
There was very little data passed through the...what was then percieved as a secret brotherhood .Bits and pieces were sewn together in a pattern and embellished,hashed over, talked about edited, edited, etc. The man was far more intense, far more ...ah..nonparticipating in what was going on around him. It was as if he knew the course, so to speak, but knew the result".
If you get a chance to read this book there are many facinating aspects to the Jesus transript. Thats why to me the grail is subject to interpretation.
Parker

P.S I should mention that Mcmoneagles remote viewing target (TRV coordinate- Blind Target) as monitored by Robert Monroe.
Was this : "who or what was Jesus, and why was he here?.

[edit on 22-11-2004 by parker]

I believe that Holy Grail will be found in time......when GOD decides it is time for it to be found.....or perhaps he does not want it to be found. Maybe there is a reason to why it should not be found and therefore is one of the hardest artificats with lesser and harder clues for it to be found.
I say, we just need to let it be.....to me it would lose it's wonder and awe if it were to be found....

Originally posted by Ezekial
I propose an ATS research group to start seriously
looking for the Holy Grail ...

May I suggest that you go to the library and request a copy of
the book 'Relics' by Joan Carroll Cruz. ISBN - 0-87973-701-8

It has all the history on the Holy Grail ... where it is now, where
it was, pictures, and everything.

Also included in the book is information on the actual manger
in which Christ rested in as a baby, the swaddling cloth, the
seamless garments, The Holy Crown of Thorns (Notre Dame
Cathedral in Paris), the Holy Stairs taken from Pilates
palace, (Near the Lateran Basilica in Rome - my best friend
has seen them), The Scourging Post (Church of St. Praxedes
in Rome), the Holy Nails (Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, Cathedral of
Florence, Cathedral of Trier in Germany and Santa Croce in
Jerusalem all claim them, but Santa Croce has the best claim), the
tile over Christ's head saying 'King of the Jews' (broke into
three pieces - One is in Santa Croce in Jerusalem, one
went to Rome, one was given to Constantine), The Holy Sponge
which was filled with vinegar and offere dto Christ on the
cross was broken up - part is in France, other parts are in
Rome in these Cathedrals - St. John Lateran, St. Mary Major,
St. Mary in Transtevere, St. Mary in Campitelli as well as
St. Jacques de Compiegne in France and Aachen Germany.
The Reed was broken into parts and it is now in Florence,
Lunegarde, Bavaria and Greece. The Lance of Longinus
is in the Vatican. Others make claim but the one at the
Vatican has the best historical scrutiny.

The Holy Cross (the parts that aren't out as relics
in medals) is divided into pieces held by The Cathedral of Trier,
Notre Dame in Paris, The Cathedral of Ghent in Brussels, Oviedo
Cathedral and the Monastery of St. Toribio of Liebana as well
as a large portion in the Vatican enclosed in one of four huge
piers that face the high altar.

[edit on 1/3/2006 by FlyersFan]

have the 135 Prime Meridian markers stretching across Paris got anything to do with the location of the holy grail

Actually in Paris there is a Church called the "Chapelle de la Madeleine" (Chapel of the Madgalene) which has a strange classical architecture that does'nt really fit with the rest of Paris. It is located not very far north of the Louvre. A very gorgeous building, by the way. If the Sangreal is in Paris, it's obvious that it secretly kept somewhere in that chapel.


[edit on 12/1/06 by Echtelion]