Calling Out Jewish and Christians- Please Answer ONE Question

reply to post by Maigret


Interesting...

Do you consider yourself a prophet?

I can't wait to see what else you have to say on our forums...

talk to you soon, im sure

reply to post by Pearj

A truly deep question is why Christ cried out in the last moments "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" It's my belief that that's the moment the world's past and future sin entered the sin free environment (as stated), and God left (can't contain sin), then the sin died and He gave up the Ghost. (All three were present prior to - God, the Spirit and the Messiah as one.) The loneliness and pain must of been so great for the remaining Human - so great He cried out then, and not before (during physical pain).

In the Gospel of John, there is no crying out, and the reciting of a line from Psalms 22 is replaced by the telling of his clothes being divided up.
What John does have Jesus saying at his death is, "it is finished", which is him saying the temple and its connected ceremonies involving animal sacrifices was finished.
I think this "forsaken me" bit is somewhat over-emphasized and by reading John, which was the last of the Gospels written, and by an actual eye witness who was right there when it happened and conversed with Jesus on the cross, you have to take it as a correction of the earlier Gospels and realize that if there was a "forsaking" going on that Jesus was concerned about, it was on the part of those who should have come to Jesus to receive life, but instead turned towards their own efforts to force God's hand to give them the worldly blessings they desired.

Originally posted by Pearj

Originally posted by jmdewey60
... I would prefer to go with the Bible that there are multiple gods. ...

I stopped reading there - although I'm willing to bet you went on to describe the Trinity as "multiple gods".

That's a pretty bent thing to "read into" the Bible, best to just stick with what it actually says... Compare scripture with scripture so you know what they're actually saying - and use context. (First two rules in Theological study.) I don't want to debate what the Bible says with someone who mis-quotes it, so my input to you ends as well.

No offense meant, I just don't see it being productive.

No, I did not go into how the "trinity" anything.
What you should do is actually read the Bible, then you would know there are gods, and not one god with multiple personalities, which is not in the Bible, and is a man made invention.
If anyone is "bent", as you say, it would be the people you apparently listen to with their philosophy of a schizophrenic God, and that is no exaggeration on my pert. What it is, was an attempt by the ancients to bring their theology in line with the philosophy of the time, which meant there had to be a singularity of God which existed before anything else and then could be considered as the creator of the universe.
I don't feel the necessity at this time to throw in all that rhetoric since we are not dealing with a influential base of pagan philosophy that we need to overcome in order to show the legitimacy of the Christian concept, so we can drop the pretense for this artificial monotheism and all the mental and logical gymnastics required to uphold it.
I would suggest to you that you do some serious, independent study outside the cultish atmosphere you apparently are being subjected to, so that it would be possible to have a "productive" discussion on these matters. And you should get an attitude adjustment about running away from the slightest adversity. You really show a bad example for being spineless, in my opinion.

reply to post by AQuestion

When Jesus was asked which of the commandments was the most important, he said that we were to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. If we do that then the little details and misunderstandings become irrelevant to salvation.

Jesus did not say that. He was asked, and he replied by asking the other person how they understood it, and they provided that answer, not Jesus.
Jesus said that this was by what the rest of the law hung, which meant the law of Moses, which would have been correct, without giving any judgment, one way or the other, of Moses. The New Testament says the law was given by Moses, which is in contrast with the Jews in the time of Christ, who believed that it was given actually by God.

reply to post by Maigret

All of God's promises were made to the House of Israel. Even the Son was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel; so they are neither Jewish nor Christian.
The apostasy will be those who relinquish their previous religious ideas to be obedient to God the Father and thus form the twigs of the Fig Tree which will be known as Israel. It will be a religious nation that is worldwide and not a geographical one. It will include natural Jews, natural Israelite and naturalised [foreigners - previously of any sect or religion] who cleave to the LORD.
God's purpose was outlined in Exodus 19:5 & 6 and the Son was lauded by the 24 Elders for having achieved just that in Revelation 5:9 & 10. God is after priests who will form a holy nation; not a congregation.

Abraham had multiple concubines from which he had children, who Isaac was only one. The promises were to all the descendants and that includes Esau, and the descendants of Ishmael and who knows how many other people and was not just to a select few. According to the myth, there was a select few who were to be the priesthood, and this is where you have the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt.
Israel is not the tree, but the branches that were cut off and replaced, according to Paul, who is basically the founder of what we know currently as Christianity. He goes on further to say the old promise to Abraham was replaced by an newer and better one through Jesus. So you can believe what you want but make sure you do not claim to be a Christian, please, and make sure you point out that you are a heretical quasi-Jew, until you find a better designation for your particular sect of religion.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Pearj

Originally posted by jmdewey60
... I would prefer to go with the Bible that there are multiple gods. ...

I stopped reading there - although I'm willing to bet you went on to describe the Trinity as "multiple gods".

That's a pretty bent thing to "read into" the Bible, best to just stick with what it actually says... Compare scripture with scripture so you know what they're actually saying - and use context. (First two rules in Theological study.) I don't want to debate what the Bible says with someone who mis-quotes it, so my input to you ends as well.

No offense meant, I just don't see it being productive.

No, I did not go into how the "trinity" anything.
What you should do is actually read the Bible, then you would know there are gods, and not one god with multiple personalities, which is not in the Bible, and is a man made invention.
If anyone is "bent", as you say, it would be the people you apparently listen to with their philosophy of a schizophrenic God, and that is no exaggeration on my pert. What it is, was an attempt by the ancients to bring their theology in line with the philosophy of the time, which meant there had to be a singularity of God which existed before anything else and then could be considered as the creator of the universe.
I don't feel the necessity at this time to throw in all that rhetoric since we are not dealing with a influential base of pagan philosophy that we need to overcome in order to show the legitimacy of the Christian concept, so we can drop the pretense for this artificial monotheism and all the mental and logical gymnastics required to uphold it.
I would suggest to you that you do some serious, independent study outside the cultish atmosphere you apparently are being subjected to, so that it would be possible to have a "productive" discussion on these matters. And you should get an attitude adjustment about running away from the slightest adversity. You really show a bad example for being spineless, in my opinion.

edit on 2-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Jmdewey60, I think there may be a communication error and misunderstanding here. Your original statement clearly made it sound like you were saying that the Bible confirms that there are multiple gods, when I think you meant to say that the Bible mentions the worship of multiple gods going on in that time period, but Jesus told them there was only one God.

Originally posted by AQuestion

As for what I believe, I believe what I wrote. It was pretty simple and used direct examples. Moses was Jewish, he did not know the name of Jesus and Moses was saved. Is that really that hard to understand? Your misunderstanding of Christian beliefs is easy to understand when there are so many who profess to believe, yet, do not know what the bible says.

Using one person as an example is far from explaining whether or not all Jews are the chosen people and what God had to say about them as a people.

When Jesus was asked which of the commandments was the most important, he said that we were to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. If we do that then the little details and misunderstandings become irrelevant to salvation.

This is where I think most people go wrong. You can tell people that loving God with all of their heart and loving their neighbor is enough, but for people who are only using the word "love" as a means to get there, I have a slight problem with it. Every persons definition of "love" is different. Some people might think that as long as they treat people well and say a prayer once in a while that they're showing their "love". Then they also forget or misinterpret what "with all of your heart" really means too. This might mean that they should step it up a notch and attend church once a week too as proof that they really mean it. Come on! Love is big part of it, but it's used too loosely in these threads to have any true definition, in my opinion.

The original question is silly because it starts from incorrect premises. It is like asking a man if he is still beating his wife. If the answer is that he never beat her at all, you say that he didn't answer the question. That is flawed logic and insincere.

I think the O.P. had a very legitimate question and he asked it the only way he knew how, even though you didn't like the way it was asked. I think your analogy is very poor and your explanation didn't tell anyone anything.

reply to post by Deetermined

Jmdewey60, I think there may be a communication error and misunderstanding here. Your original statement clearly made it sound like you were saying that the Bible confirms that there are multiple gods, when I think you meant to say that the Bible mentions the worship of multiple gods going on in that time period, but Jesus told them there was only one God.

You don't have to look any further than the commandments given in the Sinai myth, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Jesus would imply that there are more than one God and even said there were many gods, and so did Paul. The old Testament starts right out in Genesis with the Elohim and he was talking to other gods when he said the people had become like them.

Originally posted by Razimus
If you stumped a pastor with that easy question he must have not been very well educated with the Bible.

But we don't need to be so specific.

* Ghost stories come out of virtually all cultures.
* The notion that there are, sometimes, deceased ancestors who are ill-at-ease come from all over the world and in many religions resulting in honoring the dead and other practices.
* Great Flood stories.
* Creation stories.
* Mystic Visions.
* Good spirits/bad spirits.

There are many spiritual stories and activities which are common to humanity --even within uncommon cultures.

While these things have been of more interest to anthropologists, psychologists, and sociologists, they are inconvenient for those with a "party spirit" but ought to be a fascination for all religious.

From history, we can point at the differences, but that which we have in common speaks to what it is to be human-- and a spiritual life seems very much to be a part of being human.

Removing spirituality from what it is to be human is a modern experiment, of which Carl Jung was a notable commentator and theorist.

What might be of interest to many of the members of ATS, Jung theorized that an inhibited spirituality will cause humans to seek culturally acceptable explanations for the paranormal-- UFO's sightings and alien abductions, he submitted, were the very human attempts to describe and explain the paranormal in a mostly agnostic age of technology.

Various connected theories (some extremes) are now current within sociological, anthropological and psychological circles, and most have been cautiously drawing upon the theological in a realization of the unifying commonality of these studies at some levels of thought.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Jmdewey60, I think there may be a communication error and misunderstanding here. Your original statement clearly made it sound like you were saying that the Bible confirms that there are multiple gods, when I think you meant to say that the Bible mentions the worship of multiple gods going on in that time period, but Jesus told them there was only one God.

You don't have to look any further than the commandments given in the Sinai myth, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Jesus would imply that there are more than one God and even said there were many gods, and so did Paul. The old Testament starts right out in Genesis with the Elohim and he was talking to other gods when he said the people had become like them.

"In Hebrew the ending -im, mainly indicates a masculine plural. However with Elohim the construction is grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural elohim (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7)"

en.wikipedia.org...

Psalms 96:5

5) For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Psalms 97:7

7) Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

So, your reference to "gods" include all spirits, demons, fallen angels (whatever you want to call them), all of which were created by God, so there is only ONE true God. The one true God has power over all of the rest of these. I think you're starting to confuse people.

If it's not a rhetorical or troll question, read this page

reply to post by Deetermined

I think you're starting to confuse people.

I think you are by throwing out a red herring.
All idols are false gods, but that says nothing about other gods. The other gods by definition would be gods, while wood and stone statues carved by men are obviously not real gods.
You can use grammatical arguments concerning the Elohim (contrary to what some people think, the books of the Old Testament were changed a lot over time and they could have done something to the verb where they did not want to tamper with the god name)but obviously YHWH was talking to others of his kind, so if you elevate YHWH to the status of a god, then you need to also elevate a whole host of other gods like him.
If you want to say YHWH was an angel, as he is described in Exodus, meeting with Moses, and when he met with Abraham and with Adam and others, then you could say no, there are not multitudes of gods.

reply to post by AllUrChips


Here is the prophesy from Daniel that explains what happens to those reaming heirs of Israel. Please note that according to other scriptures not all who claim to be Jews are what they claim.

Daniel 12:1-3
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who watches over your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress unlike any other from the nation’s beginning up to that time. But at that time your own people, all those whose names are found written in the book, will escape. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. 3 But the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavenly expanse. And those bringing many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.

According to the prophesy somewhere at the end times all true decedents of Israel will finally recognize Jesus as the Messiah and they will be converted prior to the end. At this time they will accept the Holy Spirit, the seal of God.

So you see that God did not lie to Israel in the Old Testament, he has not forgotten his chosen people. The remnant of Israel that remains today I believe is part of God’s plan of salvation. Also Remember brother that we too can find our names written in the book if we choose to have faith.

reply to post by Awen24


How did you come to this conclusion? Most I believe will not be able to fully understand what you say but I do. So I was wondering how you came to understand.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

I think you're starting to confuse people.

I think you are by throwing out a red herring.
All idols are false gods, but that says nothing about other gods. The other gods by definition would be gods, while wood and stone statues carved by men are obviously not real gods.
You can use grammatical arguments concerning the Elohim (contrary to what some people think, the books of the Old Testament were changed a lot over time and they could have done something to the verb where they did not want to tamper with the god name)but obviously YHWH was talking to others of his kind, so if you elevate YHWH to the status of a god, then you need to also elevate a whole host of other gods like him.
If you want to say YHWH was an angel, as he is described in Exodus, meeting with Moses, and when he met with Abraham and with Adam and others, then you could say no, there are not multitudes of gods.

I believe in the Holy Trinity. I think I saw someone make the statement on here that the Holy Trinity wasn't confusing, but obviously it is for some people. I also believe the Bible when it says that God created everything. Maybe you don't.

I posted scripture for you, did you have trouble understanding it? I'm beginning to believe that you don't understand what's written in the Bible or maybe you're trying too hard to teach yourself the Hebrew language and connecting it altogether.

In any case, will you do me one small little favor and refrain from telling someone else that they're not a real Christian based on statements that you clearly didn't understand when you read them either?

reply to post by Deetermined


The trinity is really not that confusing. God made us in his image.

Father = Power
Spirit = Word
Son = Love

Father, Mother, Child: Together the family creates one unit. Each peace is necessary to understand the whole. Each piece provides a different dimension to the family; each brings a different type of love to the family.

Each piece of the trinity is necessary to understand the whole that we call “God”
God is love.

Since all three family relationships are necessary for man to understand love so are all three pieces of the trinity necessary for us to understand God and his love for us.

reply to post by Deetermined


You said "Reprobation, you may want to look up the history of when the Bible was written and when Muhammad was born before claiming that Islam existed before Judaism or Christianity. Which might explain why the Qu'ran is similar to the Bible in some of it's statements.

Yes, Christians believe in the Creator by the same definition that you have, not some other.

As far as I know, Muhammad didn't die on a cross or come back to life in order to prove that he was sent by God. He only made statements based on what he claims were "visions" from God.

Did Muhammad perform any miracles? According to this, he only CLAIMED to take a spiritual journey and claimed the Qu'ran as his one true miracle.

www.rasoulallah.net...

So, you might want to study the life and background of Muhammad and ask yourself if his life was really a good model worth truly following."

Yeah...I know he was born after the bible...but Adam was Muslim...and so was Eve, as I stated. The Prophet Muhammad renewed the call to Islam; Adam, Noah, Jesus, Moses were all Muslim. Christians may say that they believe in The Creator in which the definition I gave, but they don't truly believe, they just say they do, and I displayed that in my initial post. Yes, he did perform miracles - thousands. One of which was the water springing forth from between his fingers. His companions didn't have much water, so God enabled water to protrude from between his fingers. The Prophet Muhammad is the paragon.

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by Deetermined

 

You said "Reprobation, you may want to look up the history of when the Bible was written and when Muhammad was born before claiming that Islam existed before Judaism or Christianity. Which might explain why the Qu'ran is similar to the Bible in some of it's statements.

Yes, Christians believe in the Creator by the same definition that you have, not some other.

As far as I know, Muhammad didn't die on a cross or come back to life in order to prove that he was sent by God. He only made statements based on what he claims were "visions" from God.

Did Muhammad perform any miracles? According to this, he only CLAIMED to take a spiritual journey and claimed the Qu'ran as his one true miracle.

www.rasoulallah.net...

So, you might want to study the life and background of Muhammad and ask yourself if his life was really a good model worth truly following."

Yeah...I know he was born after the bible...but Adam was Muslim...and so was Eve, as I stated. The Prophet Muhammad renewed the call to Islam; Adam, Noah, Jesus, Moses were all Muslim. Christians may say that they believe in The Creator in which the definition I gave, but they don't truly believe, they just say they do, and I displayed that in my initial post. Yes, he did perform miracles - thousands. One of which was the water springing forth from between his fingers. His companions didn't have much water, so God enabled water to protrude from between his fingers. The Prophet Muhammad is the paragon.

LOL! "but they don't truly believe, they just say they do". First of all, that's a lie in itself! That's exactly what I can say about Muhammad. He can say he had "visions" from God, but he can't claim that he died and ever came back to life as proof. What supernatural proof do we have from God that Muhammad's word meant anything? Other than Muhammad's own words?

Were the scriptures in the Qu'ran about miracles he performed written by him? My understanding is that Muhammad may have had only one narrator to write the Qu'ran for him based on his "visions" from God.

Who does the Qu'ran say witnessed these miracles? Are there names from the Qu'ran you can give me?

I'll also repeat my original statement. When you look at the actual life that Muhammad led as an example, is it really worth following? Is his behavior that of which God would send?