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reality as a Rorschach ink-blot

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posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:19 PM
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....



"But my dear man, reality is only a Rorschach ink-blot, you know." -
-- Alan W. Watts




what do you think of the idea behind this qoute?
edit on 29-11-2011 by krossfyter because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by krossfyter
 

It is probably at least as valid an idea as any other commonly offered idea in the media or scientific community.


edit on 29/11/11 by LightSpeedDriver because: Clarification



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by krossfyter
 


I would say as each individual perceives reality differently, so would they see an ink-blotch differently. That being said, perhaps he was using the symbology of an ink-blot to represent the Universe as a whole in the way you uniquely manifest it.



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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thank you for the comments.


what western classical or modern philosopher identifies with this viewpoint in their work would you say?


im kind of new to philosophy so bare with me. i find it fascinating but i am a rookie in my interest in it/knowledge of it.



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:46 PM
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Sounds like he is saying reality is a matter of perception, pretty interesting way of putting, thank you for sharing.

Edit- can of loosely reminds me of hindu philosphy
edit on 29-11-2011 by CREAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by krossfyter
 


It is an interesting take on things; however, I fundamentally disagree with his neo-zen beliefs. The belief that there is no "me", that we are all one that he followed is what caused him to make the statement you quoted. Mr. Watt believed that everything in the universe was God and that each object or person was deluding themselves into believing that they existed. As such, his ink blot analogy attempts to say that "we" create reality, while "reality" predated each of us reading this. Be well.



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by CREAM
Sounds like he is saying reality is a matter of perception, pretty interesting way of putting, thank you for sharing.

Edit- can of loosely reminds me of hindu philosphy
edit on 29-11-2011 by CREAM because: (no reason given)



you are correct.... alan watts takes a lot from eastern philosophies and illustrates them with western analogies or images/thoughts/language.

im curious as to if there is any western philosopher that might/would side with alan watts here... if any.



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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]reply to post by AQuestion
 


Have you watched this video before?


edit on 29-11-2011 by ErroneousDylan because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by krossfyter
 


It is an interesting take on things; however, I fundamentally disagree with his neo-zen beliefs. The belief that there is no "me", that we are all one that he followed is what caused him to make the statement you quoted. Mr. Watt believed that everything in the universe was God and that each object or person was deluding themselves into believing that they existed. As such, his ink blot analogy attempts to say that "we" create reality, while "reality" predated each of us reading this. Be well.



would you not find it in his general philosophy (alan watts) that he might be saying both? that we created reality but reality is also created beyond us?
edit on 29-11-2011 by krossfyter because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
]reply to post by AQuestion
 


Have you watched this video before?


edit on 29-11-2011 by ErroneousDylan because: (no reason given)


thank you watching it now. like it so far.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by ErroneousDylan
 


Dear ErroneousDylan,

I have seen the video before. I have read many who believe these things and they are entitled to believe whatever they want. I did not criticize, I explained why I fundamentally disagreed. The essence of the argument is from the mystery schools and is fairly simple. We are all God, God is imagining this universe and if we can destroy the "creation" or "illusion" then we can all return to being God. That is about as simple an explanation as one can have of the belief.

The alternative is that there is a being capable of knowing more than I can, that he created the created separated his totality into parts that are now free to proceed to grow as they will because of free will, that is the Jewish and Christian tradition, I am a Christian. I have no evidence that we are all one or return to being one, I have plenty of evidence that we are each unique and ourselves.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:15 AM
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would you not find it in his general philosophy (alan watts) that he might be saying both? that we created reality but reality is also created beyond us?
reply to post by krossfyter
 


Dear krossfyter,

I believe he would say that we are one being that created reality. I am not attacking him, he was free to believe whatever he wished. I was just trying to respond to you OP by explaining what he meant by what he said which is what I believe you were requesting. It is an interesting perspective that he had and he achieved a fair level of attention for his beliefs, the fact that I disagree with him is merely my beliefs. I think people should know what the different perspectives are regarding reality and decide for themselves which they believe is true. Too few question what the nature of self-awareness and reality are and all perspectives deserve to be considered, especially when someone has gone to the trouble of looking at the questions as he dedicated most of his life to it.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


I am sorry if you thought I was accusing you of criticism, I was merely trying to supply you with some additional information. I too believe that God created us, but I also believe that we are still God. I believe that, just because we are a creation, does not mean we are not the creator as well. I can create a piece of music, objectively, and I know that it speaks my soul for me because I created it with my soul and therefore is a part of me. Sure, we are physical beings in this 3rd dimensional Universe, but just because we are technically seperate, how does that prove that we aren't also connected on a different level as well? I know that sounds really cheesy and lacks "evidence" but that is my belief system, nor am I trying to change your belief system as I can't think of a belief that I would consider "wrong". I am simply hoping that you can supply me with more knowledge so that I can expand on my own consciousness.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by ErroneousDylan
 


Dear ErroneousDylan,

I have seen the video before. I have read many who believe these things and they are entitled to believe whatever they want. I did not criticize, I explained why I fundamentally disagreed. The essence of the argument is from the mystery schools and is fairly simple. We are all God, God is imagining this universe and if we can destroy the "creation" or "illusion" then we can all return to being God. That is about as simple an explanation as one can have of the belief.

The alternative is that there is a being capable of knowing more than I can, that he created the created separated his totality into parts that are now free to proceed to grow as they will because of free will, that is the Jewish and Christian tradition, I am a Christian. I have no evidence that we are all one or return to being one, I have plenty of evidence that we are each unique and ourselves.



AQuestion i like how you put that. very respectful. thank you for your contribution to my thread. i enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts even if i may not totally believe with them. keep in mind here that i am ultimately questioning. I feel as you say we are individuals and unique..... but and also we are all one. but thats through my limited knowldge limited brain power ... my cultural lens/life and language. its a language formed from seeing things in black and white and trying to see them as contrasts that need each other. we cant see light without knowing of dark and we cant see dark without having expierenced light.


edit on 30-11-2011 by krossfyter because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:30 AM
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Sure, we are physical beings in this 3rd dimensional Universe, but just because we are technically seperate, how does that prove that we aren't also connected on a different level as well? I know that sounds really cheesy and lacks "evidence" but that is my belief system, nor am I trying to change your belief system as I can't think of a belief that I would consider "wrong".
reply to post by ErroneousDylan
 


Dear ErroneousDylan,

I did not feel you were accusing me of anything, I just wanted to make sure that you understood that I wasn't trying to attack. These types of discussions can lead to people feeling that way. As far as what you wrote, I did not find it "cheesy" and do understand how one can come to such conclusions, I understand the logic of the belief set. I do believe we are all connected, I just don't see us all as one in sentience.

I have a body, I have a finger, my finger is not me; but, it is an aspect of me. "Me" is a psychological definition, I am my choices, I am my perspective, I am what makes me unique. If we could read each others mind, we would still make our own choices and have our own perspective. Our ability to understand the world differently is not because we create reality; but, because we each experience it individually based on our personal experiences and abilities. At least that is what I believe. Peace.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


I guess, in all reality, I would have to agree with your first statement, except under the condition that my definition of "aspect" would be different than yours. Thank you for the insightful words.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion



Sure, we are physical beings in this 3rd dimensional Universe, but just because we are technically seperate, how does that prove that we aren't also connected on a different level as well? I know that sounds really cheesy and lacks "evidence" but that is my belief system, nor am I trying to change your belief system as I can't think of a belief that I would consider "wrong".
reply to post by ErroneousDylan
 


Dear ErroneousDylan,

I did not feel you were accusing me of anything, I just wanted to make sure that you understood that I wasn't trying to attack. These types of discussions can lead to people feeling that way. As far as what you wrote, I did not find it "cheesy" and do understand how one can come to such conclusions, I understand the logic of the belief set. I do believe we are all connected, I just don't see us all as one in sentience.

I have a body, I have a finger, my finger is not me; but, it is an aspect of me. "Me" is a psychological definition, I am my choices, I am my perspective, I am what makes me unique. If we could read each others mind, we would still make our own choices and have our own perspective. Our ability to understand the world differently is not because we create reality; but, because we each experience it individually based on our personal experiences and abilities. At least that is what I believe. Peace.



how do you objectify that there is a higher source beyond our individual experience of reality?



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by krossfyter
 




I feel as you say we are individuals and unique..... but and also we are all one. but thats through my limited knowldge limited brain power ... my cultural lens/life and language. its a language formed from seeing things in black and white and trying to see them as contrasts that need each other. we cant see light without knowing of dark and we cant see dark without having expierenced light.


Dear krossfyter,

You are asking great questions, ones that many have also wondered. We should ask ourselves what the nature of reality and us is. Most people never wonder or try and consider it, yet, the fact that we are self aware is pretty amazing and probably the most important question that we can ask. I am not attempting to try and convince you that Christianity is the truth; but, I want to respond to what you said above and as a Christian I am going to have certain beliefs.

I see all of creation as starting from black and white. The big bang if you will or Genesis where God creates light. The universe is a combination of the most extreme and then a blending of all the possible variations, it is how nature works. You start with extremes, let them blend into endless variation and see what is possible. Quantum physicists are now saying that all matter is both physical and information. If they are correct then for there to be information there must be a receiver, an awareness. Computers are based on binary code, ones and zeros. Something exists, nothing exists. That is the most fundamental philosophical questions of all and the fact that I am aware means that absolute zero is not a possibility. That means that all that can exist is one or more. This is the fundamental issue facing the two belief sets, each road leads to it's own conclusion.

Nothing can come from zero; but, many can come from one, we call it cell division in biology. Each cell is allowed to mutate as it will even though it is part of a greater organism. Separate but part of. Some of us are toes and some of us are fingers; but, we are all part of the overall awareness. It is just that each cell, person, has a unique experience and can never share it fully with all of the other parts, awareness. I sure hope that made some sense of what I was trying to convey. Peace.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by krossfyter
 


Dear krossfyter,



how do you objectify that there is a higher source beyond our individual experience of reality?


Great question. Jeez I wish I had a perfect answer; but, I don't. I have two choices, either I am all that I can prove exists and created this reality or there are others and therefore something beyond me. If I am all that exists and this is all an illusion then why would I fight it? I mean obviously I would not harm myself for eternity if I had a choice. If I am all that existed having a delusion then I might as long go along with it, if it is false then it will end soon enough.

From a moral perspective it is the question of taking responsibility for defining ourselves by our decisions and actions in this world because this is what we have to deal with, this is what either we put in front of ourselves or this is what was put in front of us by another (even if we are part of that other).

By the way, great OP, it may not be the most read thread ever on ATS; but, it is a great question and a subject to consider.



posted on Nov, 30 2011 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by krossfyter
 




I feel as you say we are individuals and unique..... but and also we are all one. but thats through my limited knowldge limited brain power ... my cultural lens/life and language. its a language formed from seeing things in black and white and trying to see them as contrasts that need each other. we cant see light without knowing of dark and we cant see dark without having expierenced light.


Dear krossfyter,

You are asking great questions, ones that many have also wondered. We should ask ourselves what the nature of reality and us is. Most people never wonder or try and consider it, yet, the fact that we are self aware is pretty amazing and probably the most important question that we can ask. I am not attempting to try and convince you that Christianity is the truth; but, I want to respond to what you said above and as a Christian I am going to have certain beliefs.

I see all of creation as starting from black and white. The big bang if you will or Genesis where God creates light. The universe is a combination of the most extreme and then a blending of all the possible variations, it is how nature works. You start with extremes, let them blend into endless variation and see what is possible. Quantum physicists are now saying that all matter is both physical and information. If they are correct then for there to be information there must be a receiver, an awareness. Computers are based on binary code, ones and zeros. Something exists, nothing exists. That is the most fundamental philosophical questions of all and the fact that I am aware means that absolute zero is not a possibility. That means that all that can exist is one or more. This is the fundamental issue facing the two belief sets, each road leads to it's own conclusion.

Nothing can come from zero; but, many can come from one, we call it cell division in biology. Each cell is allowed to mutate as it will even though it is part of a greater organism. Separate but part of. Some of us are toes and some of us are fingers; but, we are all part of the overall awareness. It is just that each cell, person, has a unique experience and can never share it fully with all of the other parts, awareness. I sure hope that made some sense of what I was trying to convey. Peace.



thank you for your thoughts/comments. i appreciate your perspective. i don't have any issues with your perspective. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. But dont figure me for as a fundamentalist. A typical christian.

however, there are a number of philosophers who say that our language is built from cultural conditioning. That how we perceive things is based on a language game. We call something a "tree" and not something else and that system of thought creates/or powers our experience of how we see our world. A world based on language. Language is often mediated. Its an attempt to illustrate and make acesiable how we perceive our reality. I feel that given this as a person who questions everything I have to take this into consideration in as much as I consider or believe in Jesus and that belief system (not the fundamental christian belief system... but the idea that Jesus is God perfection in human form/ our highest state/ what we should strive for/compassion).



edit on 30-11-2011 by krossfyter because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-11-2011 by krossfyter because: (no reason given)



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