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The Patriot Act!

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posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Well there you got it is not what the people of this country wants anymore but what the administration any administration seem to believe what is the countries best interest, now to me this is abuse of power and disregard of the people's wishes.


Marg

The country has never worked any other way. The nation is a representative democracy (republic, for purists). We elect legislators and Presidents and on and on and we affect the process by voting for people who we think will do a good job. When we feel otherwise, we elect someone else.

We have a judicial system and other forms of redress and in the end the "people" get what they want, generally. It's called checks and balances.

There are a lot of laws I don't like. You know what I did? I became a philanthropist. Am I rich? Heck, no. But I give a substantial sum of money each year to organizations who represent my interests, "special interest groups," if you will. I give the money and they do the work of lobbying Congress. That's a good system, I think and a lot more effective than acting like a fool in the street and getting arrested.




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Did it upse you when the Congress passed a law banning firearms on the basis of their being ugly and the ban known as the assault weapons ban was signed into law?

The Patriot Act in these dire times is far less harmful to freedom than the incremental efforts by the left to render the Second Amendment obsolete? Where is the ACLU and the far left when this right is trampled on?


Wait, didn't you just say it takes 2/3 of Congress to pass a law and that we can't lay the blame of the Patriot Act on one party or another.

I don't see how this is any different and you want to blame this entirely on the left? I didn't realize there were so many leftist republicans.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:50 PM
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Every time I hear someone say ' If your are innocent, you have nothing to fear' I cringe. It should be just plain common sense to realize that any power given WILL be used.

It should also be obvious that, because of human nature, a person with a 'cause' will sometimes use any tool available to further that cause. Sometimes these people will be misguided, confused, mentally unstable, or just plain dumb.

Some of the powers given by the patriot act are of concern to me. Roving wire taps, arrest and detention without representation, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of peers, these concern me.

I do not believe these powers were designed to be used to harm the rights of common citizens. The legislators and administration members who designed the Patriot Act acted to respond to foreign threats that they believed justified their actions. If the public does not agree, they can remove those people by the election process.

However, these powers are open to abuse by people who are not subject to that removal. The powers granted by the Act can be used by other agencies than the FBI. Any local law enforcement agency can site the Act as justification for use of the same powers. I have a lot less faith in the judgment of a sherriff's office, or state police. I think eventually any use of those powers on a local level would probably be overturned- eventually.
Assuming a local case ever recieved the attention of someone in a position to overturn the abuse.

Do we really want to have powers in place that are open to abuse by Jimbo Nitwit, local sheriff, because someone looked at his wife the wrong way? And yes, I think there are local law enforcement members who would do this. Small people with a power problem.

I belive it is time to take a good long look at the powers granted by the Act and limit their use to only those agencies we have a reasonable amount of trust in.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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Montana,

And that its my point also, thanks for that post.

What people have to understand is that we are humans and as humans the desired to prove power over others is too strong and before the patriot act buses were done now it gives more power to those that will use it and abuse it under the law.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by JamuhnI don't see how this is any different and you want to blame this entirely on the left? I didn't realize there were so many leftist republicans.


The left has been engaged in a concerted and persistent effort to destroy the Second Amendment for a very long time. There are those on the right who are their fellow travelers, as well, perhaps most notably, Rudy Giuliani. Some say it all started in the thirties; I think it began in its current form in the sixties, 1963, to be more specific.

The Patriot Act was precipitated by the extraordinary circumstances of terrorism carried out by those who live among us. I have not had a chance to peruse the Act, yet, and so I will therefore hold off on the criticisms, until such time as I have read it.

I, like you, cringe when I hear others excuse an infringement of rights because they feel that the infringement will not affect them. However, there are individuals here whose activities are directly aided by the liberty we as citizens hold dear. We cannot allow for a condition which allows others to exploit our strength as weakness.

I have stated before that when I want to evaluate a cause, I look very closely at those who espouse that cause. So far, I have not felt a genuine desire to align myself with those who oppose the Patriot Act. I may very well change my mind. I have done so many times in the past.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Can somebody tell me just what is the Patriot Act


In case you missed the link in the first post of this thread, here it is again:

www.epic.org...



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:26 PM
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I have stated before that when I want to evaluate a cause, I look very closely at those who espouse that cause. So far, I have not felt a genuine desire to align myself with those who oppose the Patriot Act. I may very well change my mind. I have done so many times in the past.


I'd recommend checking out websites like the ACLU, but if you don't like the ACLU there are plenty of others out there. Honestly, I am just tired of the Patriot Act, I've written many papers on the Act already.

BEFORE YOU DECIDE ANYTHING THOUGH, read the Patriot Act.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
BEFORE YOU DECIDE ANYTHING THOUGH, read the Patriot Act.


I intend to read the act sometime today. Here's something that might give you a new perspective and maybe laugh, too! Turn up the sound!

"Strangers on my Flight!"



[edit on 04/9/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I intend to read the act sometime today.
[edit on 04/9/6 by GradyPhilpott]


I hope you do Grady

I understand the need for somethings happining during a war that would not normaly happen but I think some of this not only goes to far but even its backers will admit that it would NOT HAVE STOPPED 9-11.

This just leaves the door open for MORE GOVERNMENT at a later date and there are those RIGHT NOW calling for it to become perminent.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

The Patriot Act was precipitated by the extraordinary circumstances of terrorism carried out by those who live among us. I have not had a chance to peruse the Act, yet, and so I will therefore hold off on the criticisms, until such time as I have read it.

I, like you, cringe when I hear others excuse an infringement of rights because they feel that the infringement will not affect them. However, there are individuals here whose activities are directly aided by the liberty we as citizens hold dear. We cannot allow for a condition which allows others to exploit our strength as weakness.


With all respect - and I mean that in a good way, really - you shouldn't be commenting on the Act if you haven't even looked through it yet. Since it has been in force for some time, in fact is up for re-approval already, may I suggest you not only look at it soon but also look at some of the suggested changes for Patriot Act II.

Societies based on the principal of liberty will always be less secure than those that are not. It is an unavoidable fact. I believe that being able to live in such a 'free' society far outweighs the risks this society is facing right now. There are ways to increase the effectiveness of counter-terrorism in the US that do not violate the basic principles of liberty this nation is founded on.

If the Act is re-approved, I am quite sure we will never get those basic liberties back. It will gain a feeling of legitimacy that will let it remain in force for a long, long time. Do we really want to give up those basic protections for the forseeable future for the debateable increase in effectiveness of our counter-terrorist agencies?

Let's step back a bit and think about ways to give our protectors increased effectiveness without giving up our protections from our protectors in the process.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by MontanaWith all respect - and I mean that in a good way, really - you shouldn't be commenting on the Act if you haven't even looked through it yet.


While I have not read the Act, I am not completely unfamiliar with the highlights.



originally posted by the inimitable and highly esteemed GradyPhilpott
I have not had a chance to peruse the Act, yet, and so I will therefore hold off on the criticisms, until such time as I have read it.


I started this thread with a link to the add because I couldn't find where anyone else had, so that an informed discussion could ensue. Still, I think I have a right to comment on my feelings, as long as I make it clear that I have not read the Act, as I did in a post quoted above.

Most people don't wade through all the legalese to find out what an act or law is all about and usually, I don't either. I will make an exception in this case, however, since it is of such import.

[edit on 04/9/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
While I have not read the Act, I am not completely unfamiliar with the highlights.


What are the highlights of the Patriot Act?



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by ThunderCloud

What are the highlights of the Patriot Act?


Is this a test or a joke? I mean that I am aware of the larger points regarding wiretaps, search and seizure and due process. I'm not saying I think it's an ideal situation, but neither is terrorism. But, until I have read the thing, I'm not going to say anymore about it. Others may feel free to discuss away.



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