You advocate right-wing ideals and personal responsibility, but what about personal liberty?

To me, it seems that the idea of extreme personal responsibility should come with an idea of extreme personal liberty. After all, if I am responsible for myself, it seems to me that the underlying assumption is that I am "my own man". If society has no responsibility to me, then society has no right to claim dominion over me against my will.

Do I have the right to live outside the system if I want, going without electricity and living off the land?

Better yet, do I have a right to live as a homeless person without being harassed by police?

Do gays have the right to marry?

I ask questions like this because it seems to me that I run into people who advocate removing social safety nets and regulations on businesses while simultaneously wanting to restrict personal liberties even more than they already are. I'm asking this because I'm genuinely curious as to how this occurs.

I don't understand the concept of giving corporations free reign to do as they please and removing all collective social responsibility programs from taxpayers but then turning around and restricting the rights of X group and Y group just because you don't agree with them.

the more government is involved with your life... the less liberty you have.. I myself as a conservative want gov. to get the hell out of my life... less regulation = more liberty

do the math

reply to post by DrNotforhire


You missed the point of the question. I did do the math, and that's why I'm confused. Obviously more economic freedom is gained by less government, but, as I said in my OP, I have yet to see how this philosophy plays out when it comes to actual personal freedoms.

More often than not, the same people I see wanting less economic regulations and social programs also want to simultaneously restrict the personal liberties of certain minority groups like Atheists, gays, and the extremely poor.

This seems a bit hypocritical to me.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


What conservatives want and what we actually have now in America are two different things.

I personally want less government intrusion in my life but I DON'T want to live in complete Libertarian environment where basically anything goes!

I don’t want government to over regulate businesses to the point of directing their actions and stealing their profits but I DO want some regulation to protect the people from businesses.

I want people to be free but NOT free to do illegal or unacceptable things (and by unacceptable I don’t mean by MY standards but by the standards set by the people of the state in which I live – and of course the constitution).

By the way, I don’t know any conservative who advocates living off the grid, but if you own your own land I don’t see why you can’t live like a caveman if you want to. Of course you’ll have to pay your property taxes every year.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
To me, it seems that the idea of extreme personal responsibility should come with an idea of extreme personal liberty. After all, if I am responsible for myself, it seems to me that the underlying assumption is that I am "my own man". If society has no responsibility to me, then society has no right to claim dominion over me against my will.

Do I have the right to live outside the system if I want, going without electricity and living off the land?

Better yet, do I have a right to live as a homeless person without being harassed by police?

Do gays have the right to marry?

I ask questions like this because it seems to me that I run into people who advocate removing social safety nets and regulations on businesses while simultaneously wanting to restrict personal liberties even more than they already are. I'm asking this because I'm genuinely curious as to how this occurs.

I don't understand the concept of giving corporations free reign to do as they please and removing all collective social responsibility programs from taxpayers but then turning around and restricting the rights of X group and Y group just because you don't agree with them.

The whole point of personal responsibility is that it goes hand in hand with personal liberty. Never met a libertarian who thought or advocated otherwise. Maybe a neo-cons go with that idea, but they aint libertarians or even true conservatives.

reply to post by seabag


But what if I'm poor and can't afford it. We won't have many, if any, social programs. What am I supposed to do?

There's this idea that you can afford stuff if you work, but that's just simply not the case, anymore, especially with businesses raping consumers for profit.

It's not just lazy people who lack a job. I'm sorry, but it's true.

OP, your post reminds me of... Ron Paul

Personal liberty AND responsibility!

Incorporation should be a privilege.Corporations should be made to serve the public interest.Shareholders should only be allowed to profit as a means to an end.And I am with you on the Liberty thing.The system is set up so that it is almost imposible to go off the grid.There are so many laws and regulations aimed at keeping us on the grid and at their mercy.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


No conservative I’ve ever heard wants to remove all social programs. Can you provide an example?

Also, you stressed extreme personal responsibility in your OP yet now you ask what to do if you don’t have money? How about grow some crops on your land and sell them at the farmer’s market to pay your property taxes? Be responsible.

I don’t know if you watched all of the recent debates but one thing I heard can explain where I think conservative are trying to take the country.

I live in Texas but Rick Perry isn’t my guy for president. I didn’t even vote for him when he ran for governor. He did say something I agree with recently though. When asked about foreign aid and US tax dollars being spent overseas he said (I’m paraphrasing) his approach would be to STOP ALL MONEY and reevaluate the situation. Then, the ones that make sense we will restart; the others will be dropped.

Many conservatives think we need a reset like that in many aspects of our government. Let’s cap spending, reevaluate what the government has its paws in and then do away with the ones we don’t need.

The same could be done for business regulation. We should freeze all regulations, reevaluate what the government has it paws in, keep only the regulations that protect citizens from businesses and drop the rest.

Taxes….spending….regulation….you name it…..Let’s reevaluate the real role of government, scale it back to appropriate levels and restore our freedom from this oppressive machine we have now.

Just my $.02

reply to post by seabag


I read something about a community trying to reject the Roman system by trading amongst themselves and going 'off the grid' so to speak.The Romans raised their tax to a break them and take their land.None of us ever own anything really.Property tax is like some sort of stealth communism.

www.libertystory.net...

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


You have the right to what the status quo allows and nothing more.
It has always been this way since man has become "civilized".
Anything past what the machine allows comes at a price.
Most people cannot pay the required gold, so they pay with their lives.

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by seabag

 

I read something about a community trying to reject the Roman system by trading amongst themselves and going 'off the grid' so to speak.The Romans raised their tax to a break them and take their land.None of us ever own anything really.Property tax is like some sort of stealth communism.

www.libertystory.net...

edit on 28-11-2011 by theovermensch because: typo

You’re just regurgitating garbage you’ve heard. Here in Texas I pay higher property taxes than people in most states, but I also pay zero state income tax. Property taxes pay for improvements in your state (roads, bridges, schools, etc). I don't know about you but I own my property….several acres…and my taxes aren’t that much each year.

Unless you buy an island somewhere you will pay some level of property taxes no matter where you live. I don’t have a problem with my property taxes because for what little I pay each year I get a lot in return. I would have a problem if I paid property taxes to the FED though because I’d have nothing to show for it.

Originally posted by g146541
reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

 

You have the right to what the status quo allows and nothing more.
It has always been this way since man has become "civilized".
Anything past what the machine allows comes at a price.

Most people cannot pay the required gold, so they pay with their lives.

Yup! It’s called work!

Nothing in life is free.

If more people would figure that out and do something about it rather than crying about how tough it is and how the deck is stacked the country would be a better place.

I’m not saying things are great and we don’t have serious problems, because we surely do! But it’s a lot worse in other parts of this world. If you can’t make it in America you probably would fail no matter where you go!

www.wsws.org...

I am glad you think you are getting your moneys worth.

reply to post by theovermensch



I didn’t see my state mentioned on there.

We don’t have those problems here in Texas. Seems to me the states that have the infrastructure problems are the liberal states that spend all their money on retirement programs for state employees and other entitlements. When that’s your priority of course your infrastructure will suffer….there’s only so much money!

To be honest, I could care less about California's infrastructure!

reply to post by seabag

TextIf you can’t make it in America you probably would fail no matter where you go!

And what do we do with those that fail? Not everyone is such a success story as some guy from Texas that managed to purchase a farm ( whoopdeedoo ). You also must know that there is no level playing field. Do you think you are better than every individual that has 'failed'? It sounds like it.

reply to post by seabag

TextTo be honest, I could care less about California's infrastructure!

I would believe that. Sounds like you only care about yourself hey?

I agree with prior sentiment... Work... solves all the problems

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by seabag

 

TextIf you can’t make it in America you probably would fail no matter where you go!

And what do we do with those that fail? Not everyone is such a success story as some guy from Texas that managed to purchase a farm ( whoopdeedoo ). You also must know that there is no level playing field. Do you think you are better than every individual that has 'failed'? It sounds like it.

Let them fail!

The social safety nets are designed for people who really need it (mentally or physically disabled, short term unemployment until you get back on your feet, etc). Those people will get it if they need it. For anyone else…..let them fail. They will eventually figure it out.

I know this…..I don’t go to work every day and pay taxes so someone else can stay home because they can't/won't become productive.

And I don’t own a farm!

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by seabag

 

TextTo be honest, I could care less about California's infrastructure!

I would believe that. Sounds like you only care about yourself hey?

edit on 28-11-2011 by theovermensch because: typo

I can tell by your responses that you think the country owes people something. You are only owed what the constitution provides. You should read it one day rather than trying to create a fantasy land where everything is free!

You’re completely wrong that I “don’t care” about people. I do, but I also know it’s better to teach someone to fish than give someone a fish. I don’t give a rats A$$ about California and other states that have bad infrastructure.

Do you know why?

Of course you don’t!

This may be a foreign concept to YOU but they created that mess on their own, so rather than a federal tax payer handout they need to fix it on their own. They ran themselves out of money trying to create the social utopia you seem to advocate!

Guess what? It’s unsustainable!! IT DOESN’T WORK!! And conservatives like me have been screaming that for years.