Too white to study medicine

reply to post by Equidae


Yes! To your point of view.

However, reality has developed the affirmative action into something that is NOT necesarrily always benifiting either the country nor the individual that it was intended to. But still, it is a reality that is the fruits of many years of painful oppression, so how can we not understand it?

Due to the abuse of power, I can name you at least 3 black individuals in my circle of friends and aquantences that have obtained high ranking jobs for which they are not qualified.

One of these friends, a lady that we will call B, is getting very large sums of money from government and is supposed to run electricity supply and maintanance services. She at first introduced herself to me as a top electrical engineer. However, now, nearly 18 months later, she let slip that she actually has no qualifications at all.
She also revealed to me that with the 1 million rand she recently got from the government for her next job, she used R500 000 as deposit on a piece of land in Joburg!
When I asked her why is it that long stretches of lights on the highway and most public and resedential roads are ON in the day and OFF at night, she simply said that: 'it is very complicate.'! I probed but could not get an answer beyond that! I was outraged.

So, affirmative action is not actually helping B at all. She is not developing her inner person in any way. She has jumped on the bandwagon of misspending public funds and non delivery of services. She is also not developing her reality. Her truth of who and what she is, is totally illusional.

Affirmative action (and black empowerment) has gone pear shape even for the general public, because public services are very inafficient, the country is running to ruens, ecucation standards are extremely low, whilst everything is getting more expensive.

We are currently facing Julius Malema's (recently fired ANC yourth league president) brilliant idea to nationalise all farms (simply take them from the whites who have succesfully run farms there for centuries, without any compensation!!!) and redistribute it to black people.
Source: mg.co.za...

Now we all remember what happened in Zimbabwe, and what the true state of that extremely unfortunate country still is, due to exactly the same excersize, don't we?

Also JM wants to nationalise mines etc. Now, if you look what the trend is with our mines (please refere to my previous post in this thread) then this spells total destruction to us.


Julius Malema, extremly powerful amongst the ANC youth (and also not so young) has had a disciplinary hearing becuase he sang the song: 'Ayesaba amagwala' - meaningText) at a public meeting. Now.... this is attrociaous! Massively dangerous, and totally not contibutive to our racial problem and situation.

It must be mentioned that the integrity of our black polititians are not at all high, and that we have never had the scale of fraud and corruption, misapproriation of public funds, and money simply vanishing, while these fat cats are luxiating in extremly decadent lifestyles, as we have in this country now.

Sadly, it is almost like children that have been kept in a locked room, and now that the door has been opened, they simply cannot get enough. Life is like that. Unfortunately, this is reality, and also a fruit of the rotten apartheid law. So, only patience and faith can bring SA back on a balanced path of equality.

Such a lovely country. Such brave and spririted people. I love them all. The entire box of complicated rainbow coloured chocolates, with all their flavours and preconditioned dispositioned.

Still, we are one!

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
One of the most frustrating aspects of this story is the Double Standards. Can you IMAGINE if somebody who was black was turned away from the scholarship because of their race?

edit on 29/11/2011 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

Blacks do and have gotten turned away for that very reason and more. In a society whose history began with the conquest of the indigenous peoples, in the name of "freedom of religion, etc." The stage was already set for this issue. How is it, in todays world, that a mathematical genius in a poor neighborhood, becomes the cities best dope dealer vs the next Neil Degrasse Tyson? Some say due to lowly aspirations/layziness, but, i say it happens(can) through slow and steady conditioning.

If a school system doesnt provide equal education to all in their county, a disparity will and does occur. and those students pay the price. In my own lifetime, I've seen the disparity between being raised in a system that was 70%white/30% other...and move to a Georgia city to finish HS where that percentage was flipped. and it's appalling to say the least. Funny, I got held back 1yr, Not for failing courses, or not having the credit hrs to graduate(i had more than enough), but due to the curriculum differences and i had to retake, that I had taken and passed Freshmen yr back home...and i even got the same books too.

Level the playing field totally and from kindergarten, then a healthy competition based on merits will ensue.

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


I definitely see your point, but I see that as more of an issue in the selection process. It's also one that has been in the news recently. The first that comes to mind is a young (white) man who if I recall correctly BSed his way into Harvard, got kicked out for economic dishonesty, lied about his time at Harvard to get a transfer to Stanford. I think he's facing jail time now. I also remember a few years back a (white) guy lied about service in the Marines (he had only attended a single summer training session as an ROTC cadet) to get into the Army National Guard as a specialist in some sort of security training billet. He also got a good bit of rank, and it took them several months before they figured out he'd never actually served.

There will always be opportunistic liars. The onus is on the company/government/firm to actual verify claims made by applicants. It would be like doing away with worker's compensation because some people lie about disabilities. I was recently hired as a clerk at a local store which is part of a national retail chain. I think a big part of my employment was because of my military service, and while I portrayed myself accurately the only checking the company did was a cursory background search for felonies and talking to my reference. They didn't even ask to see my DD-214 (discharge paperwork.)

Hopefully that woman you work with will get busted soon before somebody gets hurt!

Originally posted by ahmonrarh

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
One of the most frustrating aspects of this story is the Double Standards. Can you IMAGINE if somebody who was black was turned away from the scholarship because of their race?

edit on 29/11/2011 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

Blacks do and have gotten turned away for that very reason and more. In a society whose history began with the conquest of the indigenous peoples, in the name of "freedom of religion, etc." The stage was already set for this issue. How is it, in todays world, that a mathematical genius in a poor neighborhood, becomes the cities best dope dealer vs the next Neil Degrasse Tyson? Some say due to lowly aspirations/layziness, but, i say it happens(can) through slow and steady conditioning.

If a school system doesnt provide equal education to all in their county, a disparity will and does occur. and those students pay the price. In my own lifetime, I've seen the disparity between being raised in a system that was 70%white/30% other...and move to a Georgia city to finish HS where that percentage was flipped. and it's appalling to say the least. Funny, I got held back 1yr, Not for failing courses, or not having the credit hrs to graduate(i had more than enough), but due to the curriculum differences and i had to retake, that I had taken and passed Freshmen yr back home...and i even got the same books too.

Level the playing field totally and from kindergarten, then a healthy competition based on merits will ensue.

I've seen what you're talking about. I went to the same school district my whole K-12 career. My county had two school districts. One was horrible (and is being considered for shut down because of horrible test scores), and the other was pretty good considering the state I was in and the average income (at least 60% were eligible for reduced lunches.) Many of my friend's parents were divorced, and if they lived with a parent in the area that fed to the bad district they would often lie and say they lived with the parent whose area fed to the good district. It was amazing the difference that location made since the racial and economic breakdown was similar in both districts. Parents stuck in the bad district would often scrape together just enough to send their kid to the local Christian academy. It was definitely not a great school, but it was marginally better than public schools in the bad district. Living a mile in the wrong direction often meant your kid had a much bleaker educational prospect than kids who were demographically similar, but lived in the better district.

well her best legal excuse:

HUMAN wasnt listed

so she did eeny meeny miny moe

or her ancestors are out of Africa, originally.

reply to post by Maslo


No, that's what the applicant said. The school said it was for fairness. Sure I don't agree, but a school has a right to try and equally employ whatever quotas they desire. There is, believe it or not, a formula to these things. A relative of mine worked in admissions, and essentially, it's is for fairness.


It's really just a form of social justice or socialism applied to local. If a person is in an area that is known to be subjective, the schools have a desire to look objective by increasing take from those places. Essentially trying to even out what otherwise would be a "doomed to mediocre" case.

Again I don't agree with it. But all and all, I understand the reasoning. I'd just prefer if it was illegal to put your name or race on it. Just the location is enough for the above reasoning.

reply to post by Equidae


yes, corruption and greed does not retain itself to any specific race. However, the government itself has great issues, so reporting it gets no-where.

B is the mother of a wonderful little girl who is in my aftercare group at school. We became aquantances at first, as she was always picking up Kamagelo late, when aftercare was supposed to be closed already. When I learnt that B lives very close to us, we started the routine of Kama coming home with me, and then B will pick her up from my house. K has spent weekends with me, when her mother is extremely busy with her 'social and business' life. Such a sweet little girl, yet, so sad never to really have mommy-time.

reply to post by Gorman91


I dont think even location would be good, someone poor living in a rich area would be disadvantaged compared to someone rich living in a poor area. Why not simply the core of the problem - economic status of the applicant? And even then it should not be a factor in application preference (thus making the study easier), but in perks such as monetary subsidies, free books, meals, accomodation or transportation.

reply to post by Gorman91

No, that's what the applicant said. The school said it was for fairness.

Also, you seem to misunderstand the issue or something. She was denied admission because of a racial discrimination being the policy of the school, not because she lied (or made a mistake) on the application. If she hadnt lied/made a mistake, she would be denied, too.

The "fairness" simply means that this racial discrimination policy was applied to every white person including her, so she does not get an advantage over other white students. In that sense, it is indeed "fair", altough it still is a racial discrimination.

reply to post by Maslo


No I understand it quite well. The school has a quota. They are not saying you cannot go because you are white. They are saying they have X amount of seats reserved for x people, and you are not in the right group.

It's discriminatory if it's denying her because she was white. But that is not the only reason. The reason is because she took a seat reserved for what they had a quota for. That's simple policy.

Originally posted by Equidae
reply to post by UnlimitedSky

 

I definitely see your point, but I see that as more of an issue in the selection process. It's also one that has been in the news recently. The first that comes to mind is a young (white) man who if I recall correctly BSed his way into Harvard, got kicked out for economic dishonesty, lied about his time at Harvard to get a transfer to Stanford. I think he's facing jail time now. I also remember a few years back a (white) guy lied about service in the Marines (he had only attended a single summer training session as an ROTC cadet) to get into the Army National Guard as a specialist in some sort of security training billet. He also got a good bit of rank, and it took them several months before they figured out he'd never actually served.

There will always be opportunistic liars. The onus is on the company/government/firm to actual verify claims made by applicants. It would be like doing away with worker's compensation because some people lie about disabilities. I was recently hired as a clerk at a local store which is part of a national retail chain. I think a big part of my employment was because of my military service, and while I portrayed myself accurately the only checking the company did was a cursory background search for felonies and talking to my reference. They didn't even ask to see my DD-214 (discharge paperwork.)

Hopefully that woman you work with will get busted soon before somebody gets hurt!

It was too late to edit this post, so I just wanted to clarify I meant 'academic' not 'economic' dishonesty. I definitely should sleep before posting on ATS

Just curious....if you were about to go in for surgery with a black doctor and discovered that your doctor had graduated from a school famous for holding marks secondary to considerations of race to meet a racial quota amongst it's graduates, would the thought bother you?
Or if both the pilot and copilot of the commercial plane you were flying MIGHT have also been graduated to meet racial quotas, how comfortable would you be?

Originally posted by Puck 22
Just curious....if you were about to go in for surgery with a black doctor and discovered that your doctor had graduated from a school famous for holding marks secondary to considerations of race to meet a racial quota amongst it's graduates, would the thought bother you?
Or if both the pilot and copilot of the commercial plane you were flying MIGHT have also been graduated to meet racial quotas, how comfortable would you be?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge people aren't graduated or graded based on quotas. And the people allowed in based on quotas all meet basic entrance requirements. Quotas do not mean you snag an illiterate janitor at McDonald's and put them into med school.

Originally posted by Puck 22
Just curious....if you were about to go in for surgery with a black doctor and discovered that your doctor had graduated from a school famous for holding marks secondary to considerations of race to meet a racial quota amongst it's graduates, would the thought bother you?
Or if both the pilot and copilot of the commercial plane you were flying MIGHT have also been graduated to meet racial quotas, how comfortable would you be?

Good point. This is a very real issue here in South Africa. It is our reality.

Also, taking into consideration that fraud is so deeply inbedded into the public control system that you can actually BUY your final school year qualification on the black market! (Including drivers licences, passports and so forth. This is not like in the movies where it is done in some dark alley behind the door of a tiny room, but at a wooden shed like stall in the middle of town!!!!!! Education authorities are so deeply involved that these people cannot be caught. Now, how comfortable would you be sitting in your chair 3 000 ft up in the air, if the pilot may not even really have finished school!?

Here is an example: Prof Johnny Molefe, acting Vice-Chancellor of the Tshwane University of TechnologyPhD BOUGHT his qualification over the internet! Watch the vid or read the interview here:
beta.mnet.co.za...

Fake drivers licenses here: beta.mnet.co.za...

ps, Carte Blanch is a national TV programme that spends its time uncovering fraud, corruption, and other unethical things, as well as world news. It is a very highly rated and extremely popular program broadcasted weekly on Sunday nights here in SA. Nobody misses it.

reply to post by Gorman91

It's discriminatory if it's denying her because she was white. But that is not the only reason. The reason is because she took a seat reserved for what they had a quota for. That's simple policy.

If the quota is a racial quota, then it indeed is a racial discriminatory policy.

Originally posted by Equidae
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge people aren't graduated or graded based on quotas. And the people allowed in based on quotas all meet basic entrance requirements

That's true on the face of it. But what happens is that entry standards are usually set at a comparatively low mark to ensure a larger pool of successful applicants so as the designated quotas can be filled.

If superficial considerations such as the race of applicants were not relevant in the entry process, and places were awarded on a meritocratic basis, then the standards of entry could be set at a more challenging level, thereby strongly increasing the likelihood that the quality of the average successful applicant would be higher.

reply to post by Equidae


There is a strong link and consequental relationship between the two. Academic discrimination and dishonesty effects economics greatly.

I slept very well thank you.

reply to post by Maslo


Not at all. Because it's not doing it in any judgmental fashion. 1 is factor A, 0 is factor B. It's simply like a computer.

It's merely one factor amongst others.If that factor is racist, than it's also biased that they have X amount of children of alumni, X amount of people they know will no afford the college, and X amount of people they chose because they think it will give them a good rep.

Schools are a corporation through and through. Their product is education. They hire in a pattern so as to not be identified as an "all rich guy", "all white guy", etc etc. It's their private entity, and their right to rule as they want.

reply to post by Gorman91

Not at all. Because it's not doing it in any judgmental fashion. 1 is factor A, 0 is factor B. It's simply like a computer. It's merely one factor amongst others.If that factor is racist, than it's also biased that they have X amount of children of alumni, X amount of people they know will no afford the college, and X amount of people they chose because they think it will give them a good rep.

Judgmental fashion or not is irrelevant, it is still a racist discriminatory policy, just like the other policies you mentioned discriminate on different basis.

Schools are a corporation through and through. Their product is education. They hire in a pattern so as to not be identified as an "all rich guy", "all white guy", etc etc. It's their private entity, and their right to rule as they want.

We are talking about a public university. And even private entities are often banned from using such discriminatory practices.

reply to post by Maslo


This is South Africa. Not America. You cannot put them to standards you know. A nation can make its own policy. South Africa is well known for its forced integration policy.

If you don't like it, leave. If you don't live there, protest. You can't do anything else.

This is why I don't really care. It's not America. 1st world problems in a 3rd world country.