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Thanksgiving - The REAL story you were never told

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posted on Nov, 27 2011 @ 01:46 PM
reply to post by CerBeRus666

Thank you for that. Burroughs said it well.

Nothing wrong with being thankful but one must reflect on historical errors as well or one is subject to repeat them over and over again. Proof? Look at America today...nuff said.

posted on Nov, 27 2011 @ 01:58 PM

In what kind of world, and site, are we on?
One of the world's greatest poets, and writer is censured for the use of the S word?

...when this happens on a site with the responsibility to freedom that ATS has, we have truly entered a police state...and the new Totalitarian dictatorship is just like Orwell used to say, a gradual removing of words from a language, until nobody know how to express descent...

Censuring a Poem????

posted on Nov, 27 2011 @ 02:08 PM
reply to post by romanmel

Yap, the sad thing is that the genocide is alive and well, in Mexico, USA, and Canada.
As of the last census only ~240.000 Native American remained on US soil. All treaties, since 1840, have been broken, and ignored...Congress did remember, in 1984, to thank the then almost extinct Iroquois Federation, for it's invaluable contribution to the US Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and specially the Concept of Individual Freedom...

Of course every time some other country as much as deviates from an international treaty...bombs away!

This day really pisses me off...and I'm of Germanic descent...

posted on Nov, 27 2011 @ 02:23 PM

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by romanmel

So it has nothing to do with ancient aliens?

Nice SP reference....

posted on Nov, 27 2011 @ 02:34 PM
Every year for many, many years now I observe the oath I swore long ago.

I will not break bread on that day: I fast, and contemplate history.

For me, asking a Native American to celebrate Thanksgiving is akin to asking Jews to celebrate Hitler's birthday, or the inauguration of the death camps.

I simply refuse to "celebrate" the survival of the genocidal psychopaths who ultimately annihilated without mercy nearly every tribe they came into contact with.

The mere passage of time doesn't change the facts of what is being celebrated, so please leave off with the "I'm just giving thanks for my family..." garbage. In point of fact, whether you admit it or not, you are celebrating the death of an entire continent of cultures so that you could replace them with yours. If you are "just.." then do it some other day. History matters.

For those who claim no guilt, since it happened long ago I ask:

Why then do you refuse to allow us our full freedom and sovereignty, why do you not let us take our rightful place among the nations of the world? If you don't support full freedom from the US, full freedom to choose our own futures and allies, then you are personally guilty of holding us in subjugation.

We are not your Indians. Most of us have no desire to assimilate or become just another US citizen. We cherish our freedom the more for having had it stolen from us. We'll be your good neighbors, but we don't want to be you. Return to us that which is ours by right, or be condemned as thieving, genocidal liars in full measure with your savagely barbarous ancestors.

If things that happened a mere hundred or 150 years ago are so meaningless, if the passage of time eradicates responsibility, then why do you bother me with the frothings of an insane desert nomad? "Son of God", indeed. That crap happened so much longer ago, why do you still harp on it?

I swore an oath to fast every Thanksgiving Day until the day I see a truly free and independent Indian nation emerge upon this continent.

On that day, I will celebrate my Thanksgiving.

posted on Nov, 28 2011 @ 06:00 PM
reply to post by romanmel

ha ha funny!
i go both ways! metric &standard

posted on Nov, 28 2011 @ 06:28 PM
reply to post by apacheman

What exactly was "yours"

I've heard an elderly native American man state how human beings cannot own nature, or own the earth.

So did you own the land? The animals? What exactly do you lay claim to that you would like returned?

posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 10:39 AM
reply to post by James1982

What is ours is our freedom to live as we would wish, to follow our own customs and laws, to have a place where our young ones can learn to speak and think in the language of their own people.

That specious old argument is used because it is misunderstood, as are so many of our thoughts and ways. No one man can own the land, true, because the land outlives him, and it is silly to think to own it: a flea may as easily fantasize about owning the dog, it is just as silly.

But a people are not one man, and can live for thousands of years and can guard the land for their children's children's children's children.

Americans have this blindness: they see all through the lens of the individual, and seldom look through the lens of the group, the tribe. Look what you, as a collection of individuals have done to the lands, how you've callously destroyed much of them, leaving a horrid mess for your children, not to mention theirs.

Looking through that lens it is easy to say "It (whatever it you speak of) wasn't my fault." Yet they jump on the bandwagon whenever some individual or team does something credit-worthy and suddenly they are willing to share the glory. Americans who weren't even a gleam in anyone's eye still take credit for WWI and WWII: they post here every day. Some even still take credit for the Civil War, even the Revolutionary War. But none will accept responsibility for centuries of calculated genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, or subjugation, despite daily enjoying the fruits of all that.

Is it any wonder that the country has ended up where it is?

Most profess an admiration of Native American culture so long as it is safely contained and packaged as quaint history, irrelevant to now. But they shrink in terror from the thought of a strong, vibrant, and growing Native American culture that is willing to compete with them economically, spiritually, politically, and socially to regain the rights of free men and women to follow their own ways.

You, the United States of America, murdered our forebears to steal this land from us. You, United States of America, still keep us in what started as concentration camps meant to be our dying-out places. We don't ask for retribution or punishment. All we ask is the return of a small fraction of what was ripped from us and to be left alone to pursue our own ideas and ways, and yet as always, you refuse to acknowledge the wrongs done and to make any significant amends, despite our patience and forbearance.

Shame, America, shame.
edit on 29-11-2011 by apacheman because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 07:45 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Wonderful thoughts.

The land is truely not "owned" as you say.

I would only caution you not to wait for America to make things right. To advance you must do it yourself. To depend on another is to sentance yourself to further slavery. You must pull yourself up on your own.

The man who I referenced in the video that gave the true story of Thanksgiving is a self made man. He has stated that his greatest amount of yearly income was a bit over $12,000 a year. He has property, and is self sustaining. A simple man has great insights and knowledge. No possesion can exceed that in value.

May you find peace!

posted on Nov, 29 2011 @ 07:47 PM
Thanksgiving is an oppressive patriarchial institution that makes other people feel bad.

We should be ashamed of celebrating it. Especially over the corpse of what was once a unique, living bird, full of its own dreams and perceptions.

posted on Dec, 2 2011 @ 09:41 PM

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by James1982

What is ours is our freedom to live as we would wish, to follow our own customs and laws, to have a place where our young ones can learn to speak and think in the language of their own people.

You have that, as far as I know. But then again I am not a native, so I don't experience that lifestyle. Aren't reservations allowed to make their own laws? They are free to govern themselves, free for the most part to do whatever they want, aside from going around murdering people or that kind of thing, right?

And language, you again have this freedom. Mexican immigrants have the "freedom" to move here and not speak a single word of English, in fact I have to learn Spanish to get certain jobs to cater to them. So what is stopping you from teaching your children your native language? What exactly is stopping you from living your life as you wish? You have far more freedoms than I do, as a non-native American. I have to follow the laws of my state, you do not, assuming you are in your reservation.

I understand the anger about what has happened in the past, but nobody today experienced it, and nobody today perpetrated it, did they? So I ask, again, SPECIFICALLY what do you want?

Would you like the US government to forfeit 50% of the US landmass and hand it over to native Americans to make their own laws, have their own individual country recognized by the UN as a sovereign nation? What Native Americans exactly? It's not as if they were a single unified culture and race, it was a huge number of separate, individual clans. So who gets the power? The biggest current tribe?

What about the people who have lived on the lands you wish to take back? People, that for generations, have worked, lived, and died on the very same land your ancestors used to. How is that right to perpetrate on modern day Americans exactly what was perpetrated against your ancestors?

I will give you my thoughts and prayers (figuratively speaking as I'm not religious) and well wishes, but I will not apologize, as I have nothing to apologize for. Holding people accountable for something their ancestors may or may not have done is neither logical or moral.

You know, I'd bet the number of Americans today who are strongly related to those around during the time period you describe is a lot smaller than you think. I, for one, know that a large portion of my family tree only came to America in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Never owned slaves, never fought any natives. Even if I did, so what, that's not on me.

You are just as free as any non-native American (and actually are MORE free) so I don't understand what you want. We can't undo time. Pretty much every inch of every continent, and every race and culture out there is a product of countless centuries of land being stolen from other cultures and land. You do not have a monopoly on the stolen land and destroyed culture claim. Even looking at just Europe, there are many many events in the past that are basically the same. A different people come to a new territory, and war with the natives, defeat them and take over. This is the story of the human race EVERYWHERE, not just north America, not just the USA.

So again I ask you, in specific terms, not general or abstract ideas, very specifically what do you want? Money? Land? Who gives it to you? Land belongs to nobody but mother earth. The only thing man can do is occupy it. I don't see how you have any right to steal it from those currently occupying it just to right some past wrong (you can probably tell how I feel about Israel based on this too... beside the point anyway)

So I await your specific demands on what would "make this right" And in the process, explain how you aren't wronging someone by fulfilling them. If it's freedom you are after, hey join the club buddy, but you are ahead of me as you have more of it than I do.

I'd also like clarification on what you mean by a strong Native community challenging the USA economically. A strong economy is based on strong industry. Industry is what's responsible for all the ruining of the land you talk about. So a native American owned steel mill is somehow better than one owned by a European American?

posted on Dec, 2 2011 @ 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Indigo Starchild

We should be ashamed of celebrating it. Especially over the corpse of what was once a unique, living bird, full of its own dreams and perceptions.

Nope. Thanksgiving is a name, and a day of the week. The meaning is derived from the individual. To me, thanksgiving is a day where I can gather around a delicious meal with close friends and family, take a slow down from my fast paced life, and be thankful for what I have. I have a job, it may not be a great one, but it's a job. I have a car that allows me to be mobile, it may not be a great one, but it's a car. I can fill my belly every day, it may not be the most tasty food ever, but it's still food. I can lay down at night and sleep in comfort and safety. That's pretty good, and it's nice to have a reminder of that fact.

I have a lot to be thankful for, even though my life isn't one that very many people in the US, Canada, Europe, or some other places would be envious of. That's the point. Instead of living in a world of negativity and gloom, thanksgiving resets my internal meter, turns me back into a cup-half-full kind of guy instead of focusing on the bad parts of my life.

That's what it means to me. Absolutely nothing to do with my ancestors, absolutely nothing to do with Native Americans. Just a day to be joyful, and be surrounded by good people and good food.

To try and turn that into something negative shows to me that you are a miserable person and wish to make everyone else the same way. Stopping a thanksgiving celebration would accomplish absolutely nothing aside from removing joy from millions of people's lives. You should be ashamed of such a thing.

You really think if we ask the dead Native Americans of that time period if it's an issue to them that modern day American's celebrate Thanksgiving, and are brought joy by that fact they would say yes? That they would wish to remove a celebration of genuine joy and togetherness, a celebration that gets those family members that live far away that you don't frequently see to come over and share a night at the table, so you can experience the love of great people. You think they would wish to destroy such a thing? Just because of some random day that really has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by the settlers? If so, then I don't feel the least bit bad for someone that would wish to destroy joy and happiness.

What if we change the name and the day? Last Friday of every November, and it's called "Day of Thanks" instead of "Thanksgiving" Would you still come in here and humbug yourself around? The day we celebrate thanksgiving is hardly a historical marker of anything significant relating to the destruction of native American culture, so to bog down everyone's positivity with your black thoughts is just ridiculous.

But by all means, continue your negativity, I'm sure that's something the fallen Native Americans would truly appreciate. Negativity as a way to honor the victims of genocide. Great idea.

posted on Dec, 2 2011 @ 10:10 PM
This is an important issue and I almost brought this old thread out again for any newer members who may be interested but decided in the end to just let it ride, but yes, it is something which deeply disturbs me and I see history repeat itself all the time in this same fashion.

posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 11:08 AM
reply to post by James1982

Native American reservations are not truly free in any political sense.

Tribal courts, where they exist, may try only tribal members. If an American citizen commits a crime on tribal lands, the tribes are expressly forbidden to try them, but must hand them over to federal authorities who may, and usually do, simply release them unless the crime was murder and the victim non-Native. The tribes cannot create or enforce anti-pollution laws that can be applied to non-tribal members. It is like saying that a state may try only state citizens, but not those of neighboring states.

Recently the Cherokee were forced by the Federal government to redefine who exactly is a Cherokee, under threat of voiding the results of the recent election for tribal Chairman. The tribe had chosen to expel non-Cherokee descendants of the freed black slaves held by the Cherokee who after the Civil War the feds at the time forced the tribe to enroll as citizens so as to be better able to control the outcome of tribal elections.

The BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) controls all tribal resources and frequently gives contracts to exploit those resources to corporations without tribal consent, consultation, or input. Those deals are usually of the "sweetheart" variety, with little of the profit returning to tribal coffers.

We have no seats in the UN, not even observer status.

The US refuses to recognize our passports, refuses to recognize our right to issue them, and presses other nations to refuse to accept them.

The tribes have no power to deny entry to federal forces like the FBI, or state police. Extradition is not required to snatch a tribal citizen from tribal lands, although is is required from one state to another.

Our economic life is tightly controlled from Washington, as are our politics. Every significant thing we might wish to do we must beg permission for, and that permission is frequently held hostage to force us to surrender some aspect of control in return. We are not free to change our constitutions (originally written by the feds) without federal approval.

Our religious beliefs and ceremonies are subject to approval by the feds.

The list is endless.

We are not free.

Our lives, our economies, our beliefs, our politics are remotely controlled by others without concern for how it will effect our lives. Our lands may be usurped at any moment for any reason and there is little to nothing we can do about it. Our very identities are subject to the whims of Washington.

Ever hear of termination?

It is the process by which the federal government unilaterally withdraws recognition of tribal status, confiscates tribal lands and properties, selling them off and distributing a portion of the proceeds to the former members of the tribe, and tells them they are simply Americans from here on out, with no tribal status or rights. Every tribe lives under that constant threat of cultural genocide.

We are not free.

True freedom would recognize us as true sovereign states with the right and ability to kick unwanted federal goons off tribal lands, control of our own currencies and economies, the right to make laws without asking "Father may I?", the right to jail those who pollute our lands, the right to negotiate treaties with the other nations of the world, the right to sit in the UN and have our voices heard unfiltered by the interests of the US.

One of the reasons the US refuses to recognize the authority of the World Court is that the tribes have sued the US in it to enforce treaty obligations that the US consistently ignores, like returning our full sovereignty and freedom.

If the Palestinians can sit in the UN, why can't the tribes?

If the Navajo wanted to sign a treaty for mining rights with say France or, Mexico, Canada, China or Russia why shouldn't it be strictly the business of the Navajo to do so? They can't though, because the US has usurped their sovereignty. If the Sioux wanted to rebuild the buffalo herds and control their populations, they would need federal permission to do so, and the feds would dictate to whom they could sell the meat and hides.

Freedom would mean we could tell the feds and states to go take a hike and give us the ability to control and police our own borders without asking anyone's permission to do so.

We are not free.

posted on Dec, 3 2011 @ 04:36 PM
reply to post by apacheman

I really appreciate you putting the time into that post, well done sir! Indeed those are all issues that I would agree with you on, the Native Americans deserve their own country, not just a "USA-lite" area of land.

You must also admit thought that the American population also isn't free. This is an issue that effects all Americans, Native or not. My life is pretty much at will to those scumbags in DC just like yours is.

I don't have any answers here, all I can think of is trying to live together as fellow human beings without the walls of nations moving us apart.

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