There are republicans that still believe in Freedom


They are called Libertarians now

Well, you have discovered only half the story. The other half is to realize that democrats hate our freedom too. Realize that, and the truth becomes more apparent.

However, I'm one who is against abortion, but not if it means the mother's life. That is a valid reason for it. If one will die anyway, the mother or child, the mother should be spared of course, to live on and hopefully have another child some day. But that's another topic I guess.

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
Well, you have discovered only half the story. The other half is to realize that democrats hate our freedom too. Realize that, and the truth becomes more apparent.

This is what I keep telling those who parrot the "lesser of two evils" song

I don't agree that one political party favor more or less liberties than other, I believe that both political parties are afraid that people in this nation will wake up one day and realize that the ruling parties in this country is doing anything for the people and decide to go against them.

That is one of the reasons that our civil rights has been tampered and poke to see how far the citizens will react to it, if not reactions are derived from this poking and tampering more and more of our civil rights will be taking away until it will be one totalitarian government under the umbrella of "democracy", and we the people will have to answer to every single move we do in this nation, kind of what is going on now if you want to protest you had to follow the "rules" or received the "consequences" for your actions so next time you think twice if you want to do it again.

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
Well, you have discovered only half the story. The other half is to realize that democrats hate our freedom too. Realize that, and the truth becomes more apparent.

Exactly! To say that Democrats love freedom is equally preposterous. At least the Rebublicans will ignore you (unless you're a homosexual couple wanting to get married); the Democrats want to micromanage you, making you get approval from the government for everything you do in life.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud
Exactly! To say that Democrats love freedom is equally preposterous. At least the Rebublicans will ignore you (unless you're a homosexual couple wanting to get married); the Democrats want to micromanage you, making you get approval from the government for everything you do in life.

How can you say that with the Patriot act and all?

You might have been able to say that in the past but the Republicans have shown themselves to be EVERY bit as controling as the Democrats

Originally posted by Amuk
How can you say that with the Patriot act and all?

You might have been able to say that in the past but the Republicans have shown themselves to be EVERY bit as controling as the Democrats

Good point. We need to throw both parties out on their butts, and put two new parties in place!

Yeah, koji_K, I'm sorry but you must not know that much about the positions of the political parties. Liberals, or left-wingers are KNOWN to want the government more involved in our lives. They want the government to make everything better most of the time. Republicans would rather live lives seperate from the govt. Of course, you would have to go more in depth to REALLY explain this...but I don't want to right now haha.

A thread of authoritarianism does indeed run through all major parties but the Libertarians. Anti-authoritarianism is their driving ideolgy, equally against the Dem kind, the Republican kind, the Constitutionalists kind, the Green kind, etc.

The biggest difference happening between the Dems and Republicans are the Democrat authoritarian measures are typically either trying to keep people safe or make corporations better citizens. Restricting the freedom to be stupid or hurt others. All secular initiatives but value judgements nonetheless, though they adamantly oppose moral authoritarianism. When people say they want a Philospher King, this is what it would be like. Green is even moreso, and Nader would would be off the chart. He thinks he knows everything.

Whereas the Republican kind is moving more and more toward moral authoritarianism. Making laws based on moral judgements. Restricing the right to be "immoral" in their value judgement, though they adamantly oppose secular authoritarianism (or used to). Hard to say anymore with some of their laws and crackdowns. The Constitution Party would be moreso. It's as close to a Theocracy in America as you'll get outside of Texas.

I'm personally very libertarian minded (small "l") except when it comes to corporations. Here, in my mind, the Libertarians brand of ideology would just empower them to run roughshod over all of us. The Republicans are no better on this issue. Though they lose my vote just on the basis on forced morality alone, they are in bed with evil when it comes to corporations. That's the only reason I can see why corporate polluters aren't financing the sympathetic LP. Why bother? They have the Republicans in their pocket already.

So in that regard I acknowledge a healthy amount of Democratic authoritarianism (the least objectionable alternative of all to me) and embrace it...because I like the idea of a Philosopher King in a way.

Because people are basically stupid. The Libertarian arguement that they aren't and should be allowed to run their own lives would be alot more impactful if people didn't overwhemingly disagree with LP on this point.

A vote for the Dems says people are stupid and corporations are evil. Protect me from them.

Whereas, a vote for the Republicans says people are evil. Protect my corporation from them.

The overwhelming majority of Americans want to tell someone else what to do one way or another. That's pretty much America in a nutshell isn't it?

What good are we if we don't boss someone around?

Originally posted by RANT
Here, in my mind, the Libertarians brand of ideology would just empower them to run roughshod over all of us. The Republicans are no better on this issue. Though they lose my vote just on the basis on forced morality alone, they are in bed with evil when it comes to corporations. That's the only reason I can see why corporate polluters aren't financing the sympathetic LP. Why bother? They have the Republicans in their pocket already.

Not really, the Libertarians would strip a LOT of the protections the republicans give to corporations and mostly just level the playing feild between them and us. I could see how the Democrats would think this but a closer look at our platform would dispel this.

I appreciate you not jumping on me Amuk, if I'm indeed just mistaken.

I'll have to look at that.

Originally posted by Herman
Yeah, koji_K, I'm sorry but you must not know that much about the positions of the political parties. Liberals, or left-wingers are KNOWN to want the government more involved in our lives. They want the government to make everything better most of the time. Republicans would rather live lives seperate from the govt. Of course, you would have to go more in depth to REALLY explain this...but I don't want to right now haha.

I disagree. All I can hear coming from the Republican platform is how we need new rules for this and new rules for that, and practically every one is a curtailment of some previously existing liberty, be it the right to an attorney, the right to choose, the right to marry the partner of one's choice, the right to unfettered access to government records where there is no possible harm involved.

And I know what Republicans traditionally stood for, but like it or not, Bush has expanded the size of the Federal government more than any other president save LBJ, and Ashcroft has intervened in state's rights issues more frequently, if less obviously, than any other Attorney General before him.

It is clear that the Republicans feel that there is something fundamentally
"unRepublican" about America and they want to remould it in their image.

-koji K.

This is utter non-sense. The Republican's stand more for freedom than the current Democratic Party. There was a time when I would have agreed with this statement, but this is not the seventies. The Republican Party has been reborn and the Democrats have embraced hard-core Socialism, which has never been the hallmark of liberty.

Being jailed indefently without trial or a lawyer
Wire Taps without a judge
Home searches without a warrent
Government snooping into your internet veiwing, what books you read, etc


Sounds like freedom to me

Is it so much the fault of the "Republicans" though? Or the fault of a small bunch of Fascist-like Neo-Republican's and a party of disillusioned Democrats? I just want to ask this question because generally speaking, I don't see many Republicans as freedom haters and evil, but many of the one's that are controlled by big business and money are just that. Same with the Democrats as well, of course!

Many Republicans seem more like they are o.k. with the current situation because maybe they are fearful of the repercussions from the smaller, however more powerful group.

I personally do not see any resemblance between the modern "big money" Republican and the traditional Republican. I think the definition of what it means to be a Republican has expanded to the point where small government and a more Libertarian philosophy has now grown into a party of money, greed, and capitalism. Nevertheless, the same thing could be said of many Democrats as well.

Also, maybe its not so much a point of "Republicans" being bad, per say, but a few individuals who want to cause the party harm and disrupt the Democratic process. Many Republicans are open-minded in their political philosophy, but have found a way (to use an old cliche') "jump on the bandwagon" of a small minority that has grown since 9/11.

Maybe I'm wrong, if so correct me. Any thoughts?

[edit on 5-9-2004 by Jazzerman]

I dont see how EITHER party can escape responsabilty for the direction this country is going.

The Republicans control EVERYTHING so most of this is THEIR IDEAS but on the other hand the Democrats are not doing a DAMN thing to stop it either as a matter of fact as long as their agenda, More Government, is being followed by the Republicans they are happy to go along for the ride.

I myself cant tell the two apart

Originally posted by Jazzerman
Is it so much the fault of the "Republicans" though? Or the fault of a small bunch of Fascist-like Neo-Republican's and a party of disillusioned Democrats? I just want to ask this question because generally speaking, I don't see many Republicans as freedom haters and evil, but many of the one's that are controlled by big business and money are just that. Same with the Democrats as well, of course!

Many Republicans seem more like they are o.k. with the current situation because maybe they are fearful of the repercussions from the smaller, however more powerful group.

I personally do not see any resemblance between the modern "big money" Republican and the traditional Republican. I think the definition of what it means to be a Republican has expanded to the point where small government and a more Libertarian philosophy has now grown into a party of money, greed, and capitalism. Nevertheless, the same thing could be said of many Democrats as well.

Also, maybe its not so much a point of "Republicans" being bad, per say, but a few individuals who want to cause the party harm and disrupt the Democratic process. Many Republicans are open-minded in their political philosophy, but have found a way (to use an old cliche') "jump on the bandwagon" of a small minority that has grown since 9/11.

Maybe I'm wrong, if so correct me. Any thoughts?

[edit on 5-9-2004 by Jazzerman]

I certainly agree with you. The Republican party, while never espousing the ideals that would lead me to vote for them, wasn't always like it is now. It's been hijacked by the necons from PNAC and AEI. Kristol, Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc.

However, I tar them with the same brush because the Republican leadership has accepted this. It was part of their strategy to embrace the far-right, something the left didn't do following the rise of the New Left under Clinton, and is why they "lost" the last election. Unfortunatly, they went too far, and our country, particularly our foreign policy, has been allowed to be determined by the neocons. The State Department is practically a vestigal organ of the Bush administration these days.

The Republicans are in the best position to stop what's happened to them, but they won't, because most of their supporters don't seem to realize what's going on, or don't care.

And yes, the Democrats have a role to play in this too, as many of them voted to grant Bush his "war powers".

-koji K.