Occupy Wall St - The New Common Sense

Originally posted by Vizzle

Rhetorical Question: did you read it? I know the answer btw,

Well, you know, I scanned through it...though I confess that after reading the first few pages in their entirety I could not find the motivation to read all 400 some odd sections of the rest of it. It was a tad too pompous for me.

And from what I did read, I was unable to decipher exactly who the "we" are that they constantly refer to themselves as...though they behave (in their writing) as though they do...or should...speak for the movement.

The first two words, actually, are what caused to me wonder who was behind this and by what process it was being issued, "In Unity". A bit presumptuous, don't you think, of (some splinter off of?) a leaderless movement to start out this way.

Followed soon after by...

...from and for the collective conscience of the "99%" to and for the oligarchic "1%" of the United States of America.

The collective conscience (really?) of the 99%...again, I had not realized that this formless mass of discontent had so quickly coalesced into a 99% who could so clearly articulate the key points of what they stand for...and are standing against.

More on this...

...this document was originally gifted to our minds through the process of carefully collecting public opinion, it really does come from you, the "collective conscience"...

Good grief. So, again I have to ask, by what process within the movement were these words brought forward as if to represent the ideals and the goals of the group as a whole "In Unity"? Who carefully collected public opinion, from who, from where, and when? Is there any record of this? Who decided that the results of this survey are accurately represented by this document?

And more on how democratically this has been crafted, and how open to debate these unnamed spokespersons are...

...While this document is being given freely to the public domain without any duplication or distribution restrictions so long as they remain non-profit, the copyright is being reserved and all modifications are discouraged as another means of a protection from those who may wish to modify it with the intention to dilute and/or discredit it. So please make no changes to this...

Yeah, I think I read enough.

Now, care to answer my questions?

reply to post by Vizzle


Let me begin by saying this…

I am possibly the biggest OWS hater on ATS.

This is BY FAR the best thing I’ve seen out of OWS. This document could (COULD) be a game changer.

I read over this for an hour and I have the following questions/comments about this article:

25 - While we who have named ourselves the "99%" may each have our own individual personal concerns and grievances, we know that we must set them aside at this time due to a more pressing need to demand the return of the Representation that has been taken from us. Until such time, we contend that nothing can be accomplished in a spirit of true discourse.

I’ve been calling for setting aside the rhetoric since the beginning. Why then are people in OWS doing the things they are doing?

Examples:

Letting people promote their own thing>>(unions, ACORN, Liberals, Socialists, Anarchists, Marxists, communists, etc, etc), committing acts of violence, defecating in public, arson, vandalism, etc. You exclude (and really deter) people like me from backing OWS with this BS.

Like I’ve said from the beginning, if OWS would have a true leadership team promoting ONLY this agenda you’d be full of support. When you let all these other groups (mentioned above) spew their BS propaganda you lose support…a lot of support!

57- Thus, a decision that the court made in 1857 helped launch a Civil War and it took two Constitutional Amendments in 1862 and 1868 followed by approximately one hundred more years of civil unrest and divisive Court decisions until these issues finally began to resolve. To this day these issues still remain unresolved to a certain degree; such is the damage that has been done.

Is this a call for Reparations or other actions to right wrongs from 150+ years ago? It sounded that way. We need to forget that and move on already. The future begins tomorrow.

183 - Thus, mere political issues do not matter at this time and our opinions do not matter when we are not being heard. Until we get our voice back, we must demand redress until such time as our Right to Equal Participation is returned to us.

Then what recourse do we have? Who is this article directed to and what do we do when/if it’s disregarded? I understand the demands but who is it directed to, what is the deadline, do you expect them to follow these directives and what is the plan if they don’t??

This document was written last month! Why is this the first time I’ve seen this on ATS? This is a well thought out document but what do we do with it? Why has OWS not effectively delivered this message?

I’m really disappointed that OWS isn’t more organized. IMO this message would really galvanize support and bring in the remaining 89% (because OWS is realistically about 10% right now) on board.

There is no current leadership, so what’s the plan to get this out and reorganize this mess?

THE MAJORITY OF US THINK YOU ARE THE “ISM’S” AND DIRTY HIPPIES!!! WHERE WAS THIS MESSAGE IN OCTOBER? BETTER YET, WHERE IS THIS MESSAGE NOW? WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN DELIVERED TO THE MSM FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLICATION?

If OWS doesn’t get organized and spread THIS message (even if it alienates some of your current base) then OWS doesn’t stand a chance!

S&F Great Info!!

reply to post by Vizzle


Thanks for sharing. This looks like a practical tool into which much effort was invested and much thought as well. So glad to see that someone out there is coming up with a sort of "guidelines" that some of us can follow. A lot of us are angry but unable to come up with a decent list of the specific problems that have infested our nation. I know I'm one of those people. Every day I come across news that makes me wonder what kind of turbulent future awaits us if these psychopaths are not stopped, but complaining here is a waste of time. Now there's a respectable document to pass around.

The people who wrote this are articulate and precise in their communication. I like this.

Here's a link to a "Messages from the Authors," which contains commentary and updates.
/DVpHCsHs

This is why I have an issue with the "Occupy" movement.

In their document, they state that we are no longer represented by the leaders we want. We are no longer represented by the leaders we choose.

Yet, "Occupy" claims to represent me without my input. They come out of nowhere and right away assert their claims that they represent me.

In my mind, they (Occupy) are no better than the politicians we have "representing" us now.

They make claims, and USE the "99%" as de facto permisson to assert themselvess spokesmen for the rest of the country.

I didn't vote for them.
I didn't elect them.

And I am sick and tired of them making assertions that they represent me.

I am an individual. With individual god-given rights to make my own determination as to whom I choose to represent me.

To Occupy, stop speaking for me. I have my own voice. My own mind, my own bliefs. I hate being categorized. I am not the 1%. Nor am I the 99%. I am an individual. A singular entity with the same voice, rights, as you.
You call it common sense. But only if I agree with you. My common sense makes me very wary of anyone who starts making claims on my behalf, without my voice or opinion or vote/

beez

Originally posted by mobiusmale

Originally posted by Vizzle

Rhetorical Question: did you read it? I know the answer btw,

Well, you know, I scanned through it...though I confess that after reading the first few pages in their entirety I could not find the motivation to read all 400 some odd sections of the rest of it. It was a tad too pompous for me.

So you still have not read it.

And from what I did read, I was unable to decipher exactly who the "we" are that they constantly refer to themselves as...though they behave (in their writing) as though they do...or should...speak for the movement.

The first two words, actually, are what caused to me wonder who was behind this and by what process it was being issued, "In Unity". A bit presumptuous, don't you think, of (some splinter off of?) a leaderless movement to start out this way.

everyone and anyone can speak their mind, This is one of the clearest documents come out of OWS movement so far. I would suggest you read it in its entirety, as again, some of your questions are answered in the document itself.

Followed soon after by...

...from and for the collective conscience of the "99%" to and for the oligarchic "1%" of the United States of America.

The collective conscience (really?) of the 99%...again, I had not realized that this formless mass of discontent had so quickly coalesced into a 99% who could so clearly articulate the key points of what they stand for...and are standing against.

Instead of listening to the MSM all the time, you should fact find for yourself. You will find that a lot of what is in this document has been said over and over by members of the OWS movement. Unfortunately, what the MSM makes us out to be, and what the facts really are, are two very different things.

More on this...

...this document was originally gifted to our minds through the process of carefully collecting public opinion, it really does come from you, the "collective conscience"...

Good grief. So, again I have to ask, by what process within the movement were these words brought forward as if to represent the ideals and the goals of the group as a whole "In Unity"? Who carefully collected public opinion, from who, from where, and when? Is there any record of this? Who decided that the results of this survey are accurately represented by this document?

And more on how democratically this has been crafted, and how open to debate these unnamed spokespersons are...

...While this document is being given freely to the public domain without any duplication or distribution restrictions so long as they remain non-profit, the copyright is being reserved and all modifications are discouraged as another means of a protection from those who may wish to modify it with the intention to dilute and/or discredit it. So please make no changes to this...

Yeah, I think I read enough.

Now, care to answer my questions?

some of that is answered here - message from the authors

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vizzle

 

Let me begin by saying this…
I am possibly the biggest OWS hater on ATS.
This is BY FAR the best thing I’ve seen out of OWS. This document could (COULD) be a game changer.

Thanks. I really thought it articulated some of the main points we have been trying to get across quite well, and also offered up a few solutions.
.

I read over this for an hour and I have the following questions/comments about this article:

25 - While we who have named ourselves the "99%" may each have our own individual personal concerns and grievances, we know that we must set them aside at this time due to a more pressing need to demand the return of the Representation that has been taken from us. Until such time, we contend that nothing can be accomplished in a spirit of true discourse.

I’ve been calling for setting aside the rhetoric since the beginning. Why then are people in OWS doing the things they are doing?

Examples:

Letting people promote their own thing>>(unions, ACORN, Liberals, Socialists, Anarchists, Marxists, communists, etc, etc), committing acts of violence, defecating in public, arson, vandalism, etc. You exclude (and really deter) people like me from backing OWS with this BS.

all of these people promoting their own thing that you mentioned, are part of the US, and each should be able to express their opinion. Just because I disagree with some of it, does not mean that I should not let them speak their mind. Some of it I find plain amusing. The drawback is of course, this is what the MSM will focus on, what I like to call the "fringe" elements.

For the second part here, "committing acts of violence, defecating in public, arson, vandalism, etc." I also do not condone any of this. I actually was standing in front of windows that were broken with another medic in oakland on nov. 2nd, so that these stores would not get looted. Side note, the fire that was started on Nov. 2nd, was not started until after the 2nd round of tear gas was fired by the police. Also, I have an article for you to read that was in the local paper here about it. I know, I know, its a sfgate.com blog, but it does offer another viewpoint on it, and was actually bit more accurate when describing the actual crowd size (msm said 7k people)

occupy oakland strike draws 100,000 violence caused by 100

I actually can verify first hand, that a lot of the violence and BS that day was caused by a small group of people that were only there to cause violence.

Like I’ve said from the beginning, if OWS would have a true leadership team promoting ONLY this agenda you’d be full of support. When you let all these other groups (mentioned above) spew their BS propaganda you lose support…a lot of support!

I agree, although one of my biggest fears about this is that once there is a head to the snake, the head can be cut off. Also, I would hate to see what happened to the Tea Party happen to OWS, which is being bought and silenced by the 1%. I hope the Tea Party one day tells their new financial backers to go * themselves and gets back to being the Tea Party. They could have made some serious change had they not been silenced. Funny thing is, the Tea Party and OWS have a lot of the same goals, just different methods.

57- Thus, a decision that the court made in 1857 helped launch a Civil War and it took two Constitutional Amendments in 1862 and 1868 followed by approximately one hundred more years of civil unrest and divisive Court decisions until these issues finally began to resolve. To this day these issues still remain unresolved to a certain degree; such is the damage that has been done.

Is this a call for Reparations or other actions to right wrongs from 150+ years ago? It sounded that way. We need to forget that and move on already. The future begins tomorrow.

I think it was more part of the overall argument against what the supreme court has been doing, though you do bring up an interesting point.

The general attitude that the Supreme Court is perfect and void of corruption internally and thus remain immune from scrutiny has caused yet more damage.

I think it had more to do with this statement than reparations. I just ran out of room, so i will continue in another post.

I would also like to thank you for being open minded, and taking the time to read this document. I think it is a good start as to what direction we need to head as a nation to try to start fixing the mess that we are in now. It still needs work, and is not set in stone, and open to amendment still. As a "first draft" i think that the authers have made some really good points. Ok, now to respond to the rest

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vizzle

 

183 - Thus, mere political issues do not matter at this time and our opinions do not matter when we are not being heard. Until we get our voice back, we must demand redress until such time as our Right to Equal Participation is returned to us.

Then what recourse do we have? Who is this article directed to and what do we do when/if it’s disregarded? I understand the demands but who is it directed to, what is the deadline, do you expect them to follow these directives and what is the plan if they don’t??

This is part of the "petition" section. This is directed at "the 1%", whose definition was outlined in the text of the document. I honestly dont expect the 1% to follow the petition, but i think it could be a good start to bring more unity to the people that are still deeply divided across the US by the MSM, and the tactics that they use to keep us divided. As for a deadline, I dont think there is one, as of now, its more of an awareness and "get up off the couch" type of rallying cry. But, I do think it is a good start to start pointing out some of the main issues that should really be pissing everyone off.

This document was written last month! Why is this the first time I’ve seen this on ATS? This is a well thought out document but what do we do with it? Why has OWS not effectively delivered this message?

Sadly, it has been delivered and ignored. I did however just email it out again last night to 20 different radio talk shows and news outlets. I am fairly certain since that it does provide a clear message, it will once again be ignored. Sorry that it is the first time you have seen it on ATS. I feel responsible as I have not been putting out all of the information that I do have, but then, I have been really busy between work, school, and protesting. Hard to find the spare time sometimes.

I’m really disappointed that OWS isn’t more organized. IMO this message would really galvanize support and bring in the remaining 89% (because OWS is realistically about 10% right now) on board.

We were almost there, then the 18 city crackdown happened. Minor setback, we are reorganizing.

There is no current leadership, so what’s the plan to get this out and reorganize this mess?

Again, working on it. As this is not the "final draft" and the authors are still collecting feedback. The raids of all the camps, and the closing of the main camp at Zuccotti Park was a setback, but you cant arrest an idea, right?

THE MAJORITY OF US THINK YOU ARE THE “ISM’S” AND DIRTY HIPPIES!!! WHERE WAS THIS MESSAGE IN OCTOBER? BETTER YET, WHERE IS THIS MESSAGE NOW? WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN DELIVERED TO THE MSM FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLICATION?

All i can ask is that you help spread this message, and help get the word out. Again, still working out some of the finer points via lots of feedback.

If OWS doesn’t get organized and spread THIS message (even if it alienates some of your current base) then OWS doesn’t stand a chance!

S&F Great Info!!

We are regrouping from the shutdowns and raids, but it will happen. Whats the saying "Rome was not built in a day".


Again, thanks for taking the time to read it, and look forward to further discussion with you about it. Hopefully together, we can push for positive change for our country.

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by Vizzle

 

Most haters wont read anything longer than a couple sentences.Your post would also make them reluctant to come at you because they know they will be outmatched. You also may convert some haters if they take the time to read that.

Dude, you are psychic. =)

Originally posted by beezzer
This is why I have an issue with the "Occupy" movement.

In their document, they state that we are no longer represented by the leaders we want. We are no longer represented by the leaders we choose.

Yet, "Occupy" claims to represent me without my input. They come out of nowhere and right away assert their claims that they represent me.

we would prefer that you represent yourself, and provide input.

In my mind, they (Occupy) are no better than the politicians we have "representing" us now.

really? Has Occupy stolen from you? Have they taken away your rights? Just curious.

They make claims, and USE the "99%" as de facto permisson to assert themselvess spokesmen for the rest of the country.

I didn't vote for them.
I didn't elect them.

And I am sick and tired of them making assertions that they represent me.

I am an individual. With individual god-given rights to make my own determination as to whom I choose to represent me.

again, please please please, start representing yourself and your beliefs then. Only by doing this can positive change be made. If people were representing themselves from the get go, and using their voices to speak out against the corruption, we wouldnt be in this mess to begin with, right?

To Occupy, stop speaking for me. I have my own voice. My own mind, my own bliefs. I hate being categorized. I am not the 1%. Nor am I the 99%. I am an individual. A singular entity with the same voice, rights, as you.
You call it common sense. But only if I agree with you. My common sense makes me very wary of anyone who starts making claims on my behalf, without my voice or opinion or vote/

beez

Again, please use your voice. That is all we ask.

reply to post by Vizzle
I already speak as an individual.
I already use my voice.

I don't make claims that I represent you, Vizzle, though. I acknowledge your freedoms but ask that you respect mine as well.

I am a single link. A single loop of metal. My strength is determined by me and me alone.

Occupy is a chain. Only as strong as it's weakest link.

Acknowledge my rights to freely express my opinions.

I acknowledge yours.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Vizzle

 

I already speak as an individual.
I already use my voice.

I don't make claims that I represent you, Vizzle, though. I acknowledge your freedoms but ask that you respect mine as well.

I am a single link. A single loop of metal. My strength is determined by me and me alone.

Occupy is a chain. Only as strong as it's weakest link.

Acknowledge my rights to freely express my opinions.

I acknowledge yours.

It actually is being respected, and we acknowledge that not everyone will agree with what we have to say. That is why there is a place to sign if you agree with what was said in the document. Nobody is going to robo-sign your signature on the document. We leave robo-signing to the banks =)

reply to post by Vizzle


I already "have" a document.

The preamble to it goes something like this.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

reply to post by beezzer


sweet then you saw this part:

Duly signed,





_____________________________________________
X

if you dont agree, then you dont have to put your name above the X. =)

reply to post by Vizzle


Thank you for posting this, it's powerful stuff and I hope everyone reads it.

I want to quote this part on the state of dependence that we find ourselves in:

TO THE CONGRESS IN SPECIFIC That there are three basic levels of human societal structure. From least to most evolved, they are dependence, independence and interdependence. We seem to be at odds because the "1%" appears to want to force us into the lowest state of dependence with your help. Our Nation, however, was founded via The Declaration of Independence which was then followed by a social contract (The Constitution) that guaranteed that we would all participate in a society based solely on interdependence. The "1%" has broken that contract with us in league with you. Dependence is not an option for We the People, for we would have to give up the freedoms and liberties that our hard won, hard kept and wholly cherished interdependence grants us. We simply are not willing to endure a forced state of dependence and our continued interdependence is the only option that we will accept.

Source:http:///gm2UV08D

reply to post by Vizzle


it is beautiful and heart felt,
and i feel it captures the moment in a truly historic light,
which it is

may the people read and improve and debate as in days gone by,
this is common sense, may it also make sense in the future.


thomas paine
common sense

Published in 1776, Common Sense challenged the authority of the British government and the royal monarchy. The plain language that Paine used spoke to the common people of America and was the first work to openly ask for independence from Great Britain.

xploder

reply to post by beezzer


Just curious. Do you see a problem with this?

Obama white house/Goldman Sachs links

reply to post by jlv70


Thanks for taking the time to read it. I know its long, takes about an hour or so to read. You can tell who has read it and who has not just by how they post and what they say. Also, Thanks for the Thomas Paine links, who was the inspiration for the document

reply to post by beezzer


How is that one working out for you so far? You must really love and support your current government and how they utilize that document, or else what is your point?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Vizzle

 

I already "have" a document.

The preamble to it goes something like this.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

You must have missed the part where what i posted wasnt a replacement of the constitution, it was a call to start using it again. Funny, you quote the constitution, yet you let Corporations and the Government trash it left and right. Lets see here..

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union

Seems like the union in todays times is far from perfect, wouldnt you say there are some glaring problems staring you right in the face?

establish Justice

How many of those responsible for the economic collapse that made millions of dollars are in jail? So much for established justice.

insure domestic Tranquility

Far from tranquil, wouldnt you say?

provide for the common defence

Does this defense include the current nation building we are taking part in?

promote the general Welfare

Does this include all of the homeless, all of the people making minimum wage, and all of the people working 2-3 jobs just to barely put a roof over their head?

and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Liberty you say? Posterity? Does this include silencing protesters who do not agree with the current state of the government and all the shady stuff they are engaged in?

Liberty
1
: the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice

Posterity
1
: the offspring of one progenitor to the furthest generation
2
: all future generations

I think my work here is done.

So... the document supports the Constitution and wants to return the power of government back to the people... and do away with the lobbyists and corrupt influence of business in determining legislation.

Who then will represent the OWS and the 99% as a representative... as a candidate?

If you truly represent the 99%, you won't have any problem getting funding and donations to support the campaign, run ads getting the OWS message out, and truly informing people of the truth instead of the lies of the mainstream media and press.

In what states are you going to run candidates? What offices will you run for? Will there be a national convention?.... better be a big place since 99% of the people will be there.

Because most people are mentally lazy and not part of the informed elite... myself included in the challenged bunch... What will be your message broken down in about 6 to 10 statements or "planks in a platform" so to speak? You know, a simple message the rest of us can wrap our head around since many of us find such a document as presented here daunting to say the least.

Basically, can OWS do what the Tea Party did? Actually get into public office and change the course of politics and our government?