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Netherlands Intolerance?

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posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 05:47 AM
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jaKKKo
Arrogant Americans!

I just watched some of the speeches on the convention, by Mccain and all, and what really shocked me was that loads of the people in the audience had this "NATION OF COURAGE" banner in their hands.
Wtf is up with these Americans???

I tried to picture such a situation in my own country (netherlands) and I can assure you, it would never ever happen over here.
Even if people in the netherlands would think their leader has shown a lot of courage, labelling yourself as a nation of courage is just stupid.
Almost as stupid as the "whoever gets humans on mars first wins" contest.

Are the Netherlands this intolerant that something so trivial would cause them such concern? And does this extend to other nations in the EU. or is this just this one guy.


[edit on 5-9-2004 by keholmes]




posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 03:09 PM
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I'm pretty sure it's just that one guy. ATS attracts extremists of all kinds -- conservative, liberal, religious, etc. -- so you've got to take some posts with a grain of salt.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:14 PM
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I know but later he is claiming to be extremely tolerant...beyond the irony I just found it a little funny?



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes
I know but later he is claiming to be extremely tolerant...beyond the irony I just found it a little funny?


Maybe he is tolerant of people as individuals but hates the idea of nationalism. Who knows?



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:26 PM
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Netherlands, a country which has legalised abortion, gay marriage and marihuana, and where countless minority groups get along just fine.

Netherlands Intolerance is an oxymoron


btw, I think we already have a topic on arogant europeans...



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:32 PM
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I'm with paperclip. As a nation the Dutch about as tolerant as it's possible to be!

I don't see how you can infer intolerance from Jakko's comments there. Don't forget the Netherlands was invaded twice by a country who's populations made similar self congratulatory comments about themselves.



[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
I don't see how you can infer intolerance from Jakko's comments there. [edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]

I can infer intolerance by the definition of the word…especially number 4. and they were freed by the other so…..
1. [n] a permissible difference; allowing freedom to move within limits
2. [n] a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior
3. [n] the power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavorable environmental conditions
4. [n] willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others


[edit on 5-9-2004 by keholmes]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by ThunderCloud
Maybe he is tolerant of people as individuals but hates the idea of nationalism. Who knows?

That is my point, he is only tolerant, as long as they don't espouse ideas that he doesn't agree with? that was the irony that I was referring to.


[edit on 5-9-2004 by keholmes]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes

Originally posted by muppet
I don't see how you can infer intolerance from Jakko's comments there. Don't forget the Netherlands was invaded twice by a country who's populations made similar self congratulatory comments about themselves.
[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]

and then freed by the other, your point being?


My point being when people who never took a risk in their lives start waving little flags saying how courageous they are, it starts to look a little like the Nazi brain-washing that went on in the 1930's.

Maybe I'm wrong, but as a marine, who I dare say has to do some GENUINELY courageous things from time to time( edit : for which you have my total respect btw.) , doesn't it bother you to see civilians taking the credit for your sacrifices?

There's nothing courageous about these people sending someone else off to risk their life, while remaining in cosseted safety themselves. Not in my book anyway.



[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]

[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 05:13 PM
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I love the Dutch!

They're on the whole tolerant and generally accepting.


Belgians on the other hand, don't get me started.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
My point being when people who never took a risk in their lives start waving little flags saying how courageous they are, it starts to look a little like the Nazi brain-washing that went on in the 1930's.

Maybe I'm wrong, but as a marine, who I dare say has to do some GENUINELY courageous things from time to time( edit : for which you have my total respect btw.) , doesn't it bother you to see civilians taking the credit for your sacrifices?

There's nothing courageous about these people sending someone else off to risk their life, while remaining in cosseted safety themselves. Not in my book anyway.
[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]

First, I don’t even start to think that no one in that audience “never took a risk in their lives.” As just a quick check….Zell Miller for one was a sergeant in the marines….and many others in that audience are more than likely veterans of many different conflicts over the years. Another check, Tom Ridge served in Vietnam.

It is a far cry from standing in that audience and proudly waving a flag supporting your country, a country with a rich heritage of good; and standing in a crowd waving a flag while someone speaks about a person as criminally libel due to birth. While I don’t agree with some of the Republican Party platform, I would submit to flippantly compare the Republican Party to the Nazi party is far more disingenuous and heinous than being proud of America. As for me being offended at them for being proud of what we as a nation have accomplished…..I can’t fathom a reason why. Also those at home always send those fighting off that hasn’t changed since the beginning of time…it is just the opposite I’m happy they are in cosseted safety….just like my kids.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by Nerdling
I love the Dutch!

They're on the whole tolerant and generally accepting.


Belgians on the other hand, don't get me started.


Have you been watching the Austin Powers movies lately?



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes
First, I don’t even start to think that no one in that audience “never took a risk in their lives.” As just a quick check….Zell Miller for one was a sergeant in the marines….and many others in that audience are more than likely veterans of many different conflicts over the years. Another check, Tom Ridge served in Vietnam.


I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about the blue-rinse grannys, swaggering oil men, and the like. However, on you point as to not being offended, I accept and understand what you're saying. You're the one taking the risks, and it's your right (and to your credit) to reflect your own honour on your country.. Fair point.


As for my flippant comment though.., I'm afraid their was no flippancy in it. I was deadly serious. What's going on in America, the rise in nationalism and militarism, disregard for international law and institutions etc. really DOES look like the early years of Nazi Germany. I'm not saying the US is definitely going the same way, but the early warning signs and historical parallels are definitely there.

It's understandable that Europeans get a little nervous when it looks like history might repeat itself, even if in the end it turns out to be a false alarm. European fear or fascism is as deeply rooted and emotive as Americans fear of communism.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:21 PM
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Nazi party and Hitler glorified their nation and their past, and that was the only way you were allowed to talk about it. Nobody was allowed to point out the faults of germany or Hitler. That was not patriotic. They also had a universal enemy who got the blame for everything: Jews. Hitler made a simple equation:
nation=nazi party=hitler=patrotism. That means all who did not support Hitler and his party were automaticaly not patriotic and they hated their nation. Which is absurd. Patriots love their country and it is their duty to CHANGE the goverment who dares to # up the country or their identity.

So, that was just a simple summary. If you can find similarities with current bush administration and nazi regime, then you are moving in that direction. If not, all is good



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about the blue-rinse grannys, swaggering oil men, and the like.

and again I would have to say that whatever they ‘look’ like I would not dismiss them out of hand as having not been touched by the revenges of war….I would think that if for instance a blue-rinse granny had lost a relative to war, that might just entitle them to a chair at your table.


Originally posted by muppet
….., the rise in nationalism and militarism, disregard for international law and institutions etc…..

and I would counter that there has been an unacceptable decline in nationalism…I remember when I was a kid, though even after the Vietnam conflict it was not unusual to see the American flag posted any number of places….school opened with the pledge of allegiance…..now it seems as if there is a segment of the society for which nothing but the destruction of the US will satisfy. There has been no rise, but a fall. Go to some school and try to institute a pledge of allegiance, like was common place prior. Look at what we are discussing....look at some old convention photos. There has been a palpable and measurable fall.


Originally posted by muppet
It's understandable that Europeans get a little nervous when it looks like history might repeat itself, …….

What history might that be? The one where they appease despots and we have to pay a heavy burden to fish them out of their self created cesspool? Peace in our time brothers that’s what well have….peace in our time.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes
and again I would have to say that whatever they ‘look’ like I would not dismiss them out of hand as having not been touched by the revenges of war….I would think that if for instance a blue-rinse granny had lost a relative to war, that might just entitle them to a chair at your table.


Sorry, but you're missing my point.. maybe I'm not explaining it right. What I'm saying is that if you define courage so broadly as to encompass everyone who was waving those flags, or indeed a whole nation, you are defining it so broadly that it applies to everyone, and every country. Courage exists in all of us, from every nation, and in many different forms, but I don't think that's the message the RNC was trying to get across. It seems to me like they are trying to promote the idea the courage purely an American trait(edit : a republican trait even) , and that the people waving the flags believed as such.

Anyway, getting back to the point of this thread, that's why I think Jakko's comments were valid. You might not agree with him, but that doesn't make him intolerant.











[edit on 5/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
Sorry, but you're missing my point.. Maybe I'm not explaining it right…….

you were I just don’t believe that whoever thought up the button really put that much thought into it….in my minds eye I see this group of over worked largely volunteer group sitting around a table saying to each other….we need a catchy little slogan no more that 5 or 6 words……and someone answered back “French fries need ketchup”, and some one else said “nation of courage”…..call me silly but I’m going with nation of courage. I for one think that it was a silly little button intended to make some people feel better…and give them something to rally behind. I just don’t see this deviously evil intent of the RNC to impugn all other nations. And I also believe that those people were just having a good time watching their party and eatin’ bad food. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one….

As for Jakko’s comments I still believe that you are missing the definition…again see number 4 from above.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes
4. [n] willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others


Oh come on, all he said was that he saw that banner and was surprised by it.. He then illustrated what he meant by applying it to HIS OWN country, and saying how stupid it would sound!

If every criticism of something American, particularly something as obviously partisan and open to debate as a political conference, is labeled intolerance, where does it stop? I know your not trying to do that... but you get my point.

Honesty, I really do think it's just healthy criticism, which should be..well.. tolerated!


anyway.. I guess we're both blowing this a bit out of proportion.... peace



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 10:28 PM
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Modern Europe is famed for its tolerance, so i think this post title is an oxymoron... I can however see how the RNC can breed intollerance though... after all it is republicans



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by specialasianX
Modern Europe is famed for its tolerance, so i think this post title is an oxymoron... I can however see how the RNC can breed intollerance though... after all it is republicans


Well, you're intolerant of Republicans, so it's a good thing you don't live in Europe, or else you'd be a case against your own point.




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