The world would be a better place if everybody learned to think like scientists

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Science is all about defining and classification. Unfortunately, for scientists, God cannot be found by conceptualization. Only when the mind is quiet and free from labels and beliefs about observed reality can one find God. You won't find God at CERN. You'll find God in meditation.

You can find God most anywhere you look justin.......

But by looking at particulars, some might forget that they are looking at God. By labeling things, you conceptually separate them from the unified reality of God.

Originally posted by mandroids
Well, atheism is merely a science based comfort faith, so,really, youd be replacing one religion with another and you'd end up back at square one.

Your first sentence couldn't be anymore wrong. In science something that isn't proven as fact is considered an unknown and is typically something scientists would intend on learning about. In religions these unknowns are known as faith.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS


What the ?

What the Bleep do we know?

If you're going to cite previous failures in science, to try and justify some notion that thinking like a scientist isn't the best of means for addressing the future, you are sadly mistaken IMO. "Uh, take that phlogiston!" now that's some great science history, lol.

Is there a problem with failure in the scientific communities? Well, I would suggest that we learn from them, it's only when scientific communities deem things as 'laws' that they become detrimental. Even then, more science comes along to either prove or disprove previous findings... It's all dependent on the person making the observation and providing the theory, as in, what they choose to limit themselves to...

Being the message from the stars, I know this is simply not their stance on the issue. Your elders would be disapointed.

How do you think, said pyramids were built? the Golden ratio was comprehended ? That we can even comprehend BPM? or even, Minute in the first place? Even, everything math...?
Ahhh, science(methodology)...

As far as alienation and how mainstream science over runs what 'could' be the truth...
That's why there is a such thing as 'Fringe Science'

You say,
"You don't have to think like a scientist, to actually think like a scientist. We have been doing it since day 0."

That's when I say,
"What the?"

You say,
"Science is NOT holistic and absolute."

And I say,
"What is? Any answer you provide, I can describe through science, and if I can't prove it, the direction of the method I present will one day allow for this knowledge to be obtained."

It's funny that you think that we are worse off because of technology... If you want to allow technology and its implications to dictate your happiness, well then, by all means. Actually, first you would have to define happiness, and then causality, virtue and ethics to even pretend to convey this understanding. For popular takes on these subjects actually imply the opposite of what you're implying, but maybe that's because they are derived from methods used in science...

Anyways...

@jewdiful
With our powers combined! lol. Pretty much everything you had to say, reiterates my thoughts on the subject. Especially the part about government, and what it lead to.

It's good to see that many people who think outside the box, then eventually find themselves in an even bigger box, learn to find themselves above it all. The whole lotus flower growing rising from the mud kinda thing.

Speaking of Science and the Box, AN AMAZING SONG!

"
"The Instrumental"
(feat. Jonah Matranga)

[Lupe Fiasco]
Uh.. yeah
He just sits, and watches the people in the boxes
Everything he sees he absorbs and adopts it
He mimics and he mocks it
Really hates the box but he can't remember how to stop, it
Uh, so he continues to watch it
Hoping that it'll give him something that he can box with
Or how the locksmith, see the box as, locked in the box
Ain't got the combination to unlock, it
That's why he watch-es, scared to look away
Cause at that moment, it might show him
What to take off the locks with
So he chained himself to the box, took a lock and then he locked it
Swallowed the combination and then forgot, it
As the doctors jot it all down, with they pens and pencils
The same ones that took away his voice
And just left this instrumental, like that

[Chorus: Jonah Matranga + (Lupe)]
And he never lies (he never lies, he never lies, uh)
And he never lies (uh, he never lies, he never lies, no)
And he never lies (he never lies)
Cause he never said anything at all

[Lupe Fiasco]
He just sits, and listens to the people in the boxes
Everything he hears he absorbs and adopts it
Anything not coming out the box he blocks it
See he loves to box and hope they never stop it
Anything the box tell him to do, he does it
Anything it tell him to get, he shops and he cops it
He protects the box, locks it in a box
when he goes to sleep, but he never sleeps
Cause he stays up to watch it, scared to look away
Cause at that moment, it might get stolen
And that's the last of the boxes
So he chained himself to the box, took a lock and then he locked it
Swallowed the combination and then forgot, it
As the doctors jot it all down, with they pens and pencils
The same ones that took away his voice
And just left this instrumental, like that

[Chorus]

[Lupe Fiasco]
(Anything at all..) He never lies
Uh, and you can't tell me just who you are
You buy new clothes just to hide those scars
You built that roof just to hide those stars
Now you can't take it back to the start
And you can't tell me just who you are
You buy new clothes just to hide those scars
You built that roof just to hide those stars
Now you can't take it back to the start"
www.azlyrics.com...

Oh so fitting, epic!

The world would be a better place if everyone treated everyone else EXACTLY like they would like to be treated.

--------------------

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

I will try to convey this again.
I will start my post the same way.

For the record I am here for me, I am not here to bash anyone, so if you take it that way then.....Hey what can I say.

Now,

f you're going to cite previous failures in science, to try and justify some notion that thinking like a scientist isn't the best of means for addressing the future, you are sadly mistaken IMO.

It saddens me to know that this is all you were able to obtain from my post.

Is there a problem with failure in the scientific communities?

Are you kidding me???? If people didn't parade around like theories were absolute, I don't think would have a problem with failure in any attempt to explain something. Instead, we spend and waste resources because we believe we have total awareness on any subject matter which is so type -1 civilization-ish.
You mean to tell me this is the best we can come up with???? Really?? Scientist disagree among themselves, there is no such thing as an absolute science.

As far as alienation and how mainstream science over runs what 'could' be the truth... That's why there is a such thing as 'Fringe Science'

next there will be, deep science, and then neo-science. I see people constantly refuting evidence simply because it doesn't fit into their belief system or because they simply do not possess an appropriate instrument to measure the subject.

Over the years I watch science, do itself over again and again. This shouldn't be. For example
HM) 1+ 1=1 LM) 1+1=2.
These facts will never change. The fact the sun is bright, will never change. How can science seem to shape shift and yet retain such a valuable reputation. Yesterday and unfortunately some people today still believe darwin is somewhere near the truth. He failed to include so many of the obvious facts that were present at the time. I can remember when people didn't respect people that believed in black holes.! Doesn't this sound insane. It bothers me to hear people, and elite scientist speak about a million coincidences happening ( which is a coincidence within itself and is rather erroneous on their part), like the big bang, and in the very next breathe they disagreed to the possibility of life existing elsewhere within the vast universe.
This subject alone proves that we are thinking our heads in the sand. We have been looking so hard to oxygen based life which is so juvenile. We just love our nice little comfortable science zone.
Science hasn't even explored, or expressed the possibility that life may and can manifest itself in many forms. For example the squirmy, wormlike things that appear to swimming around space ( which was said to be nothing by science) as if it were the ocean. Do your own research, the first time Nasa employed a new camera which was supposed to give them more detail in space, we saw more than what we thought was out there.

"You don't have to think like a scientist, to actually think like a scientist. We have been doing it since day 0." That's when I say, "What the?"

.....Alright lets try this again. When people were dropping there bpm's to 6 beats, they were not measuring or counting.....Wait a sec and just follow me.
When the indigenous divers were just getting food, they were not aware of the supposed limitations put upon the lungs and human body that our established by science. In Buddhism and other similar traditions, their weren't any monitoring machines and these people were not aware that they were creating Alpha waves only, or Beta.

These measurements and illusory restrictions are placed upon society by science, which is like"the observer".
All of these feats were achieved and practiced for thousands of years without machines to, as you guys so arrogantly put it, " to test the validity of the claim" which is what science exist to do. If it can't be tested or proven in the realms of science then it is false.
Lets use the diver for example, if you haven't witnessed it for yourself, it is regarded as impossible based on science.

Try this one please.
Science is just another fancy way of saying 'observing'. Science proves that particles change once their observe. So why are we observing to find out absolute answers.

Your elders would be disapointed.

so be it. But my ancestors will be proud.

The saying thinking outside of the box says alot about ones understanding. At some point you still see your self rooted and connected to its inner core. If your using the term Outside, it means you are still rooted inside.

How about this
There is no spoon. I don't care how many ways you INVENT to measure it, or to try to codify it into a tangible source from which one finds comfort in. This doesn't bother me.
There is NO spoon.

Having read only a short bit of Richard Dawkins insufferable book "The God Delusion", I can say, as a scientific fact that this man is one of the most pompous, arrogant people on the face of the planet. I mean, the guy must have been touched by a priest from every single religion and then God himself must have come down and done a little number on him. Now, I'm not a religious person. I'd consider myself more, spiritual than anything really but this guy he just was something...

anyway, onto the point. Lots of people here saying religion causes war and this and that well that's only partially true... what about all the lives religion has positively affected? This seems to be conveniently ignored in your train of thought. And even worse, how many millions of people have been killed because of science. Maybe not necessarily in the name of science but in direct relation to it. What of that? A scientist is a profession. Why don't you all try to think like engineers instead? Or musicians? or Chefs? or Burger-Flippers? Why not think like those people, why single out scientists?

Second of all, Science is most certainly not any specific way of thinking. If this were so we'd still think that a grape falls slower than a cannonball. Of course somebody broke the pattern of thought that led to this belief system (Galileo) and went on to change the course of science. I think you're mixing up thinking logically with science. Not always the same thing. How much creativity and imagination do you think Einstein, Newton, and a crew of other scientists had... they too had to break a specific way of 'scientific' thought.

Originally posted by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Remember when we we're trying to land on the moon?? Can anyone here guess how many time we crashed before we got it right because we were so confident and so certain that our theories reflected actual reality. Theories DO NOT reflect reality, they reflect a collection of data which will not be substantial in finding a total, or an absolute.

For better or worse unfortunately I am not that old. But I have not heard about any crashes, at least not ones that had any human casulties. But how is one meant to know if a theory reflects reality if it is not tested?

Once upon a time, some of the worlds elite scientist and thinkers sat out to hang anyone who would try to disprove them. They also believed the world to be flat.

Thought at this time was completely controlled by the church and its agenda. It was the church which was hanging the elite thinkers

Up until about 5-10 years ago scientist just started accepting the idea, the blackness of space is actual matter and not just nothingness. It has substance it can be calculated yet it is unseen.
Now scientist are even saying that you can extract energy from just pure space. They believe there is energy. Doesn't this sound familiar. This was the bases for Ether. Ether was disproved want to know why. Because IT COULDN'T BE MEASURED.
Science = an instrument that measures all data taken in from the 5 senses only allowing Mankind to weigh and measure the universe.

Back then there was no reason for the presence of ether to exist in order to explan any of the questions which man at the time was asking. And yes it couldn't be measured, so why worry about it. It is only using our 5 senses that we can know for sure something is 'real'. Anything else is merely an idea. The beauty of science is it constantly changes its view as new data is made available.

Scientists and people that think like scientist believe that the whole universe can be measured using your 5 senses. Scientist are very arrogant in this notion alone. If it doesn't fit into the realm of 'senses' it is quickly discarded and regarded as a false way of thinking.

Wrong. It is just science only deals with that which can be measured. Everything else is the realm of philosophy. Many of the greatest scientific theories were born from philosophy and metaphysics.

Each religion represents something different. To group them into one box seems very insane to me but this is what we do with things we don't understand. Look at what science has done to planet earth just with race and class alone. This has divide us rather than explain the various amounts of energy and complex systems working together for a common goal. Like the human body. We just see this class, this class, this class, which create a superficial division between life. We are all working in unison.
Some people say the ultimate reality and heaven lies within your understanding and anyone may obtain this, others may teach you have to go to someone to obtain this. They each have different practices.............

Different practises and different ideas. And yet ultimately there can only be one truth. What does this tell you...?
We are not all working in unison, this is the problem.

This question is elementary to me. If we are all human why don't we have one language???? This is obvious, and so is the answer to the question that I quoted.

Why do we not all dress the same, have the same haircut? Language and expression of self have nothing to do with finding out the truth regarding the universe and why it is the way it is.

Originally posted by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Religion was the first science. It was man's attempt to measure EVERYTHING. Not just what he can see. If you were to look into any religion you find things that science proudly exclaim is impossible.

To measure and understand are 2 different things

For ex. A man breathing 6 b.p.m.
Someone walking on coals, tribal men diving to depths that are supposed to crush and suck the air out your lungs, man being aware of the golden ratio and pi more than 6,000 years ago, the Pyramids being aligned with true north without any modern instrumentation, the pyramids lining up to the exact center of the 12 constellations without a telescope.

Science says NONE of the things mentioned above are possible, but I have seen them with my own eyes. I refuse to wait, so science can catch up to what some of us know already.

When scientist are able to open their minds, then we can converse.

There are many mysteries in the universe that science cannot explain. This does not mean they discount them. I'm starting to think that whatever scientist you've talked to was also a neo-nazi and a fascist

Just for the record, you can show youtube vids all day, but it doesn't reflect what these religions represent. Just for the sake of the post, SOME OF RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS do NOT even represent their religion properly.

Completely agree, although I would say it is more than just 'some'. And I think you missed the point of my youtube vid post.

The foundation of religion is one concept, Enlightenment. Just because you don't see that in today's world doesn't mean point fingers at the religions they have suffered just like science is suffering. You have people who have misrepresented the truth in religion just like you have people who misrepresents science.

I would argue that his is not the goal of many religions, and least not as far as most of their followers understand it. And whose fault is that...? But any perfect ideal channelled through an imperfect human messenger is bound to get a little screwed up. This is probably why you seem to be on such a tirade against the scientific institution.

At the end of the day.
With all of this tech and know how that was brought forth by science, it seems we are worst off with it then we we are with out it. Science is NOT holistic and absolute.

I would definately argue against that. We live twice as long as we did even a few 100 years ago. I am communicating to you on technology created by science. Used properly, science will be one of the most important tools in healing the ills humans have done to the planet. Unfortunately it is not being used properly

We Need to relearn how to think like HUMANS. While NOT alienating our potential or the unknown, we have science instilled within us. You don't have to think like a scientist, to actually think like a scientist. We have been doing it since day 0.
Think about that for a sec.

Thinking like humans, which is just another species of animal, is why the world is so screwed up in the first place. We need to elevate our thinking to above that of merely a base reactionary level.

**If the source of everything is within the brain>mind, why our we studying impulses and the environment rather than the interaction between the brain and what we create as reality??? That would be real science.
What you guys are referring to is not science, it is something trying hard to solidify and make an illusion concrete.
There is no spoon.

If we could, we would, and I'm sure a few are actually trying. But like you pointed out these things still cannot be measured and until they can be will remain in the realm of philosophy and metaphysics

reply to post by thed3adbeat

Having read only a short bit of Richard Dawkins insufferable book "The God Delusion", I can say, as a scientific fact that this man is one of the most pompous, arrogant people on the face of the planet. I mean, the guy must have been touched by a priest from every single religion and then God himself must have come down and done a little number on him. Now, I'm not a religious person. I'd consider myself more, spiritual than anything really but this guy he just was something...

Dawkins must have been goosed by the Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by Burgo1010
Bugger that, after witnessing first hand "scientists" performing inhumane & torturous experiments on unconsenting innocent animals so they can test things like paint, petrochemicals, pharma drugs ... I would never want to be like that ... analytical and devoid of empathy ... granted not all are like that but still

Do you really want me to go dredging up YouTube vids on te atrocities that certain religious sects or new age cults have committed? Or the cruelty that goes into the meat you eat and the leather you wear.

I can't agree with you more but this is a very extreme example, and one that most will not agree with. The consumers of these products (which I'm sure you are one of) are just as much to blame.

nope i live as cruelty free as I can .... this is not the most extreme, learn facts before you show denial ....

I disagree. It would cause *major* imbalance in the collective psyche, which we already have a severely imbalanced psyche.

Originally posted by Burgo1010

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by Burgo1010
Bugger that, after witnessing first hand "scientists" performing inhumane & torturous experiments on unconsenting innocent animals so they can test things like paint, petrochemicals, pharma drugs ... I would never want to be like that ... analytical and devoid of empathy ... granted not all are like that but still

Do you really want me to go dredging up YouTube vids on the atrocities that certain religious sects or new age cults have committed? Or the cruelty that goes into the meat you eat and the leather you wear.

I can't agree with you more but this is a very extreme example, and one that most will not agree with. The consumers of these products (which I'm sure you are one of) are just as much to blame.

nope i live as cruelty free as I can .... this is not the most extreme, learn facts before you show denial ....

Denial of what? I've never seen a physicist test his theories on animals, nor a computer scientist, nor a geologist, nor even a hydrologist.

I am not denying that most of the cosmetics the are bought or the medicines we take are tested on animals first. I'm not denying that it's wrong. I put these 'scientists in the exact same category you do.

But to write off the entire scientific institution because of the extreme actions of a few is just ignorance. You may as well write off all of religion because of the Salem witch hunts, or the entire New Age movement because of the Heaven Gate cult.

Learn facts before you show denial.

I think it's arrogant for us lowly humans to think we have any comprehension of God.
The universe is a mysterious place. With each question answered arises 10 more questions.
Each one of us is the tiniest spec of almost nothing, existing for an even tinier duration.
How can anyone possibly think they know the answer to the ultimate question.
This is why I dislike organized religions which claim to know all the answers.
Everyone needs to find their own belief system and adjust it as they gain more experiences.
This is exactly what science does. Adjust their beliefs as new data pours in.
Not all data has to be physical and that opens the door to religion.

reply to post by musicalmirrors


Science has made you believe that you are just a tiny speck of almost nothing. It is science that has made you believe that you are thing in time. Science asks the questions and the answers produce more questions but what is the real answer?
If you think humans are arrogant and lowly then that is your belief. A belief put there by scientists who tell you that they have all the answers.
The answer is staring right at you. Existance is. How? We don't know. Some call this God.
All science is trying to do is put existance (God) in words.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by Burgo1010

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by Burgo1010
Bugger that, after witnessing first hand "scientists" performing inhumane & torturous experiments on unconsenting innocent animals so they can test things like paint, petrochemicals, pharma drugs ... I would never want to be like that ... analytical and devoid of empathy ... granted not all are like that but still

Do you really want me to go dredging up YouTube vids on the atrocities that certain religious sects or new age cults have committed? Or the cruelty that goes into the meat you eat and the leather you wear.

I can't agree with you more but this is a very extreme example, and one that most will not agree with. The consumers of these products (which I'm sure you are one of) are just as much to blame.

nope i live as cruelty free as I can .... this is not the most extreme, learn facts before you show denial ....

Denial of what? I've never seen a physicist test his theories on animals, nor a computer scientist, nor a geologist, nor even a hydrologist.

I am not denying that most of the cosmetics the are bought or the medicines we take are tested on animals first. I'm not denying that it's wrong. I put these 'scientists in the exact same category you do.

But to write off the entire scientific institution because of the extreme actions of a few is just ignorance. You may as well write off all of religion because of the Salem witch hunts, or the entire New Age movement because of the Heaven Gate cult.

Learn facts before you show denial.

edit on 26/11/2011 by 1littlewolf because: (no reason given)

I see what your saying, I am not writing off Science, It was my favourite sunject, In regards to Animal testing/research it is totally uneccasary, there are many more reliable methods available now ... Dr Hadwen Trust is a great example of moving science forward

Originally posted by Burgo1010

I see what your saying, I am not writing off Science, It was my favourite sunject, In regards to Animal testing/research it is totally uneccasary, there are many more reliable methods available now ... Dr Hadwen Trust is a great example of moving science forward

Sweet, I'm glad we could find some middle ground. Like I mentioned somewhere the quote in the OP does not echo my thoughts exactly. However I do think not enough people use logic, and will accept anything someone tells them as long as they seem like an 'expert'.

I also think a totally secular world would be a boring place to live in, and it is very true that science does not, and cannot ever have all the answers. Those who write off the spiritual world completely have obviously never pondered the higher questions that deeply.

Also I would definitely support any movement which seeks to reduce the amount of cruelty and indifference which is alive in the world today, be it directed towards humans, animals or Mother Earth herself.

Peace

Originally posted by 1littlewolfBut I want to know what you think. Do you think the world has been hijacked by the misplaced beliefs of religion and many of the airy fairy notions of the New Age movement. Or do you think that that its our ability to use our imagination and follow our hearts that makes being human such a special thing. Or......... do you think something entirely different?

edit on 24/11/2011 by 1littlewolf because: (no reason given)

I think the world has been hijacked by scientific belief. Its not that there's nothing good about science, its just not the be-all end-all that we are lead to believe. More over, believing is seeing, not the other way around. Your belief creates your reality.

If we only believe in the cold, dead world of science, then our world will be cold and dead. So I disagree with your idea.

Do all 'scientists' think alike?

He he...

Akushla
;

Unfortunately Science has in a way turned into a religion of its own. Scientists tend to become just a vehement and irrational when questions as priests ....
I am all for more skeptical questioning and the search for truth but we kinda need to dump the 'authority' worship to get there - and that includes scientists.

Interesting quote I just found quite relevant to the OP

Science is NOT Religion
Often one sees a conversation or debate on the web wherein one side takes a strong position about the so-called inviolate "laws of physics" and claims these laws prevents so and so effect whether it be free energy, levitation, HHO mileage extensions, spirituality, life after death, Brown's Gas or whatever. Most if not all of these proponents have never dug through or investigated these so-called "laws of physics" and as such are simply mouthing the words of dogma and doctrine someone else said before them. In other words they are more like parrots or other trained non-thinking animal who learned that when doing what they are bid by their "superiors" (experts, teachers, employers, owners) they get rewarded. When they go against the status quo or contrary to the accepted or politically correct dogma and doctrine they are punished or penalized. This is of course more like a pious religious stance and nothing like real science wherein everything and every authority is persistently questioned. So the beat of ignorance and conceit goes on...

On the other hand science is not a democracy (mob rule). Facts are facts and are not decided by vote or consensus as is often done in the so-called environmental movement. Ideally science pursues truth no matter whose sacred cow gets gored. Unfortunately, the real world for science is to do what the guy with the money wants. For instance there are unlimited funds for inventing and producing services, products and processes for controlling and killing people. There are few funds for doing the opposite of promoting Life, Light and Love in our communities.

Dale Pond