OWS: ATS has your opinion changed?

reply to post by jimnuggits


see? that's the establishment left gatekeeping talk right there.
and establishment left gatekeepers all over ows, like it's the second
coming of christ. lol.

same # like with julian assange and wikileaks.
"i am for truth, but not too much truth".
that's the line in the sand here unfortunately.

but hey, to quote noam chomsky (on 9/11), "who cares?"
let's just repeat what someone says, and then use our jazz hands
because we can't have a "revolution" with a - bullhorn.

yeah.
right.

Originally posted by sonnny1
Nelson Mandela,Gandhi,MLK all were part of movements that changed the world,OWS...?

Not so much.

Protesting doesn't require pitching a tent either.

OWS comparing themselves to ANY other GREAT movement,is also preposterous.

What kind of polemic is that now?
Calling the big boys (Mandela, Gandhi, King) and comparing the historical movements with that little green plant, called OWS to show how ridiculous it is, also pretending that I compared OWS to any great movement.

It does not mean anything to me, how OWS is perceived over there. As I said, I was positively surprised about the political consciousness. If this is only the consciousness of a few, this is sad - for you.
You also can bet, that the MandelaGandhiKings had to face the same head winds as the OWS, including attempts to criminalize them or ridicule them. That's the way it goes.

Protests and demonstrations are a normal thing over here. Even the police goes into the streets, if they feel, they should have better working conditions. If this is not possible in the land of the free, then I shrug and wonder.

Originally posted by jimnuggits
Why must all political discourse be an either/or scenario? Truth is always more complex than soundbites.

We have got to stop this elementary name calling and get down to a more adult conversation that includes the BEST of both polarities.

I agree with you that there is an excluded middle (i.e. Truth is always more complex than soundbites). I still maintain that the underlying OWS movement objective (i.e. what I perceive as their Robin Hood strategy) is, to a greater extent than not, disastrous. But that's my economic and political philosophy which, I gather, you do not agree with. Fair enough.

What compromises the best points or endeavors ascribed to the OWS movement worth thoughtful consideration? If you provide a reasonable list then I will thoughtfully weigh them against what I regard to be the best courses of action. Such middle ground may be hard to come by, but I'm open to dialogue with the other side (provided it is dialogue and not a caricature soundbite (i.e. Good thinking).

reply to post by zworld


we were already doing that without need for laws to collect taxes from us to force us to, half the taxes of which were then used to spread socialism all over the world at gun point and then blame it on capitalism. the last nearly 70 years have been a complete snow job.

In my honest opinion I would have to say that I am still on the fence.

While yes, the idea in itself is a wonderful and inspiring thing to try and accomplish...The people doing it? Not so much.

Just a few weeks ago while I was attending Occupy Philadelphia (for a night or so, then I started fearing for my safety), a woman was raped in one of the tents. The only god damn thing that people did was shine flashlights into his face and yell. They didn't try to pull him off, they didn't try anything but shower him with light and throw words at him. If I would have been aware of what was going on, I would have helped in any way I could have, but I wasn't. The people are unwashed, unkempt, drunk, and for the most part delinquents. They shower themselves with kindness when they do something wrong, and scream when they are arrested for it. Of course, there are other people that are part of the movement who I met and admire deeply...

But all in all, I support the idea, but find the people to be lacking in both personality and wit.

reply to post by SLAYER69
In the begenning I took a wait and see approach mainly because I could not figure out why "wall street" when we have a corrupt government.Then the camping thing was just a excuse for every street person and bum in New York to start camping in a public park,then the attack's on private buisness's,then the sponsership's by union's and Acorn and from there it has just gone down hill tell now it seems all the OWS movement is about is "revolution"'

I have come to belive that this whole thing was only about the end game of revolution and the socialist/communist eliment has or will take over and use the people with good intentions as cannon fodder..................this is just my opinion.

I can't wait to see what happens when an OWS person gets in the way of a 6 foot 300 lb shop-a-holic on black friday.

Originally posted by EspyderMan, this did not happen like it did in Egypt, because generally people in the West are scared and won't stand up for themselves. This is due to the silver spoon being fed to you daily, soon as the spoon is gone you all huddle into a corner ready to die.

edit on 23-11-2011 by EspyderMan because: (no reason given)

I disagree, I just think that us in the west havent had it hard enough to be pushed to the point of those in egypt.
The west still thinks its free, the tyranny here is not so in your face, but more subtle for now.
People still have their material things, things that make them feel comfortable, that will soon change with the coming economic dip into real hard recession. Things are not going to be getting better in the near future, only worse. And when the reality of the material comfort promoted by the media as what makes us happy gets taken away from those that have been brainwashed into thinking thats what matters, then people will start to take things more seriously. This still doesnt affect most people, but when it starts to, more people will be more inclined to fight to protect their material bull#. Eventually the masses will be driven to fight the machine, and when they do, then the govt's will be justified in using the FEMA camps and terrorism laws which were created for just this such scenario, for we are the terrorists as soon as we actually start to fight the tyranny, and I mean fight not just protest it. This is just the start of things to come, the fight against the common enemy is just starting to take place, in the form of protest, but there will come a time for more proactive measures, and a time for the enemy to start using more pro active measures to fight to keep their grip of control. It will get nasty, I have no doubt about it, as no change has really been achieved by non violence alone. A time and a place for everything, but Im just glad to see people are actually starting to try and get heard and are taking action and trying to do something about it. But what the movement really needs is a well defined set of goals, and it really does need leadership, for without leadership it is simply a headless chicken.

Yes, my opinion of OWS has changed. I used to be on the fence with OWS because I supported the general idea...but now? I don't support them at all since they made it abundantly clear on their official website that mentioning the Ron Paul campaign is against the rules. Not only that, but if you say "Ron Paul" at all, it now automatically changes to "Pawl".

What a ridiculous load of crap. This is proof to me that the OWS movement is very ignorant considering the 1 guy that could actually help restore the "99%" and end the Elite Federal corruption in America is laughed off by a bunch of idiots.

Still the same today as it was yesterday which is the same as the day it started, at least they are being consistent with their fervent and rabid belief that they need something, but no one quite knows what it is, where they should go to find it, who to ask for directions, or, if they can get a cab fare up between them to go looking for it.

From the start controlled opposition, a bunch of once savvy people removed from their sense of proportionality by the realisation that anything is accomplishable providing you have a goal and we all pull together.
see why i dont think they are serious?.

My opinion hasn't changed at all since it started. It's still pathetic.

People just have to accept that 99% of the 99% don't give a damn.

Originally posted by psyop911
see? that's the establishment left gatekeeping talk right there.
and establishment left gatekeepers all over ows, like it's the second
coming of christ.

And your problem with that is......what?
Actually though its just the first day of the rest of the 60s revolution, which began with Ghandi and King.

But since people have a hard time understanding spiritual socialism, lets just drop the use of old world terms completely. There has never been a social organization on this planet like what is coming. Remember the Phoenix. Its like that. So from now on Im labeling all of the different movements fighting for human rights and dignity, (April 6th, OWS, APPO, Arab Spring, the Rainbow Coalition etc) as the Phoenix Rising Movement.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Its like that. What John said.

But just like in the 60s, TPTB will do whatever they can to disorganize, confuse and shame the movement by bringing in infiltrators that are the scum of the earth and then making sure that whatever they do makes the next days headlines in the papers TPTB own so the world will think "wow those people are fugged up". But this time its not going to work. Eventually we will learn to police ourselves and not allow sick elements to take hold. And we will learn to avoid the pitfalls that have destroyed other movements. Because this time we aint backing down or giving up.

No more Haliburtons. No more Shell Oil. No more bought and sold politicians working as industry lapdogs while being paid by taxpayer dollars to protect the Declaration of Independence or Constitution. And no more torturing people because they tried to stop the madness from continuing.

comprende?

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Siddharta


What kind of polemic is that now?
Calling the big boys (Mandela, Gandhi, King) and comparing the historical movements with that little green plant, called OWS to show how ridiculous it is, also pretending that I compared OWS to any great movement.

Maybe your naive,and believe you know the politics of America,but as you stated you're not from this country. Many supporters liken OWS to these historical movements,to place it in a better light. Supporters have even said it is an "Arab Spring" moment,but Arab Spring has brought nothing but destruction,to the country's it originated in.

Originally posted by Siddharta
It does not mean anything to me, how OWS is perceived over there.

But it does to OWS protesters,and detractors.........

Originally posted by Siddharta
As I said, I was positively surprised about the political consciousness. If this is only the consciousness of a few, this is sad - for you.

I dont know what you are trying to imply by"you",but I will say many minds have been woken up, way before OWS began their protests. As I stated,there are thousands of OWS protesters and sympathizers,not MILLIONS in the United States.

Originally posted by Siddharta
You also can bet, that the MandelaGandhiKings had to face the same head winds as the OWS, including attempts to criminalize them or ridicule them. That's the way it goes.

Again,you cannot compare those great leaders,with the leaderless OWS. Its that simple.

Originally posted by Siddharta
Protests and demonstrations are a normal thing over here. Even the police goes into the streets, if they feel, they should have better working conditions. If this is not possible in the land of the free, then I shrug and wonder.

As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined

Dont worry or wonder. America is the land of the free.

My opinion of Occupy is gradually changing as well.

At first I basically thought that the movement was likely to be useless, if at least well-intentioned. I've realised though, that the manner in which the police has responded to them, is causing a lot of people to ask some very interesting questions.

I'm starting to think now, that there are two main ways in which Occupy is likely to be potentially useful.

*Making the government distinctly and painfully aware of just how many people are bitterly angry and unhappy with them. While the government doesn't necessarily need to care about this directly, what it does mean is that the more the government tries to use force against people, the worse it is going to look.

*Hammering the police, and giving them as negative a public image as possible. Whatever confidence any member of the public might have had in the police, needs to be completely destroyed.

The police need to be viewed by the public, once and for all, for what they truly are; the enemy. The police are nothing, at this point, other than the support system of fascism. They are an impediment to human freedom, and absolutely nothing more. They do not protect us. They do not serve us. They bash us, abuse us, falsely arrest us, and use all kinds of excessive force against us.

I want the end of the police, as a global institution. The thin blue line is a complete lie. I have never personally benefited from the existence of the police at all, and I know of nobody else who has.

My opinion from the first has been that we all certainly have the right to protest and I was originally in support of OWS (Occupy Wall Street). I'm in support of anyone who wants to protest. I finally read their 20 point declaration and that is when I knew I couldn't be in favor of their movement because it was so broad and honestly, I wasn't in support of all their points. So that's it, narrow it down, get more specific and work on more clearly defined goals. I'm not getting behind the whole simply because I agree with a couple of points, because that wouldn't be honest. I don't want to have to pick the lessor of two evils because that is the way it is now, and I thought this movement was against that kind of paradigm. If that's the case, then we're back to the same 'ole same 'ole.

Originally posted by zworld
I notice many on this thread dont understand the movement, and where its going. Its not about anarchism, though that has a place in the overall frame of things, and its not about occupying small spaces. Its about actually making this a country of the people, by the people and for the people. And since the corporations that control this world refuse to let go and give it back, its going to take a pry bar.

The April 6th movement is no different than the OWS movement. Its all connected. the world is waking up, and there is no turning back at this point.

The end result will either be a free world that is socialist based (providing for the needs of all people) or a tyrannical world that is fascist based (providing for the needs of the rich and their lackeys). Im fighting for the first.

And it really is that simple. Though individual groups may want to co-op the movement and what the struggle is about, its not about just them. Its way bigger.

See ya on the battlefield, then. I don't like either of the choices you give, so I'm opting for a third choice. I'll be on the side against both of you - the socialists AND the fascists.

I'm not living under a collectivist regime of any kind - doesn't matter if it's socialist or fascist. As I've said before, I spent my youth fighting against 'em, and it looks more and more like I'm gonna die that way, too.

When 'Occupy: America' started to accept financial and public support from Democrats and Democrat leaning establishments, approximately 65% of the voting population began to view them as the enemy. 'Occupy: America' has always been a Democrat (Socialist) movement, which was originally started by a Canadian news establishment. Ironically, the name 'Occupy Wall Street' (and its various alternatives) was copyrighted by Ad Busters. Since they saw potential in the movement, Ad Busters filed for legal rights to the name. Once it became time to cash in on the venture, they started to receive royalties for each time it was used. Ad Busters has the ability to rake in serious cash off of t-shirts, hats, and other merchandise using the name 'Occupy...". As they were planning the group's debut, Ad Busters created a list of socialistic grievances. Even though the group resides in Canada, they want(ed) to hold sections of the US hostage through occupation. Once they were (are) able to occupy enough cities, Ad Busters was (is) going to try and force US politicians to comply. Since their American counterparts (Democrats) wanted into the group, Ad Busters sold their message out for political levity. Instead of standing firmly on their list of demands, Ad Busters adjusted 'Occupy's' message to fully line up with the Democrat party. Instead of dancing around the notion of socialism, Ad Busters has embraced full blown socialistic ideologies. Ad Busters is selling 'Occupy' out to Democrats, so they can get Obama re-elected in 2012.

Within an ironic twist of fate, 'Occupy' started to break much more serious laws. Some of those laws include raping, murdering, drug usage, drug dealing, stealing, group sex, threatening the lives of business owners, and breaking and entering private property.

Ad Busters sold out the message, so they can gain political clout with Democrats. As the Democrat party started to take over the group, 'Occupy' turned to criminal activity to get everyone's attention. Ad Busters lost control of 'Occupy' while they were selling out. Even though the group is getting louder, the majority of the population is starting to tune them out.

No one cares anymore. Why? People are realizing 'Occupy' is full of crap.

reply to post by nenothtu


You already do live under collectivists, corporate ones.

My opinion hasn't changed, I still they are wasting their time and just making themselves look like idiots. If they protested the federal reserve, and against fractional reserve banking, then I would support it. They are pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Go for the Fed and you go against the top .001 percent.

I have supported OWS from day one, all though critical of the bashing and a minority of ignorance here OWS does have it's issues sure. From my observation ATS favors OWS it is just that a hand full of anti-OWS people and political trolls constantly regurgitate propaganda whatever the agenda may be. The old label tactic and usual ad hominem cop out socialists, hippies, anarchists blah blah logical fallacy will never suffice. It is a losing battle. OWS has grown to be a monolithic movement. The naysayers inspire us to fight harder. I think most of the people here aren't privy to falling for such propaganda. I at least like to think so.

So sure some of our members make it seem there is a large number of opposition but that is simply not the case. Not meaning to go off on a tangent here but i have said it before.. well same people making endless threads and posts saying the same thing but this is not about them anyway. They have not accomplished anything as far as affecting my views. Some people also have made some great points about Occupying the fed and "many of us are pushing to make that happen" but until then be patient. OWS is the precursor , f%#@k what you heard. To know is to go to OWS yourself then decide.

The naysayers that say OWS needs to go after the right people I agree however wall street is a limb of the same monster. OWS needs to shift focus toward the federal reserve " I agree" we made our point and we need EVERYONE to move money out the banks and quit them, stop enabling this financial junkie and lets dismantle this machine entirely. Remove the head "the FED" the body dies with it.

My support of OWS is just as strong from day one, in fact stronger then ever. This is the shape of things to come.

p.s. OCCUPY THE FED... coming soon

Who's with me? And you Tea Party folk are still welcome to tag along.