Does anyone know what they really are? Seriously.

reply to post by SeeingBlue

That said, I believe the height of reason is love, and that that's the only thing that's "going on" of any significance whatsoever. It seems to combine in perfect hamony BOTH the heart as well as the mind, but it's a new kind of mind, a beginners mind which is open, like a rose.

Originally posted by yourmaker
what bothers me is when we try to give supernatural meanings for obviously boring existances.

I don't think anyone here has done that, unless by supernatural you mean super natural..

Originally posted by yourmaker
what bothers me is when we try to give supernatural meanings for obviously boring existances.

this is my opinion, but we are humans on a planet. nothing more.

everything that came into being up until this point, happened because it could.

no spirits, no gods, nothing but the cold endless universe and the possibilties it creates by existing.

I don't know why I feel this way, in fact it comforts me 100% more then if there WERE a god or if I was a spirit.

it leaves everything solely up to us, there is no choice that isn't ours. (except when the planet decides to wipe an area out)

I feel our consciousness is our natural instinct that developed over countless trials and errors to learn from slowly.
and that we are now at the point of our existance to be able to determine things far beyond our scope of reason, including why are we here, which we rationalize with things that cannot be seen or touched.

it feels like it's just so obvious to me..

Is everything really solely up to you? Did you choose to be here in the first place?

Sure, you may now be aware that your destiny is in your hands, but if you didn't choose to be here in the first place... is it really? If you didn't choose to be human in the first place, then what's the point? What's the point in a meaningless existence? What's the point if it was all just a cosmic accident? There is no point, so just kill yourself. Unless there is a point. If there is a point, at all; If you can even conceive of a point of a point; If your life is not meaningless, then shouldn't that be evidence for some cosmic primal template that you might would call God? The fact that there is even a such thing as intelligence should be evidence for some sort of spiritual fundamental principle underlying the formation of the universe.

But that's all besides the point. Let's get back to the topic at hand. You said that your opinion was that "we are humans on a planet and nothing more."

That still doesn't do justice to what you actually are. What is a human? Would you define it by its common actions and its operation? Well what if I lost a limb and what if I did something that is uncommon? That would make me not human, yes? So you see, you can't accurately define what we are by calling us human if you're going to define humans by our function.

So then, what is a human? Think about it. Give me something intelligent.

Originally posted by SeeingBlue
We are awareness. That is all. Or at least that is all we can know.

I agree. We are awareness. But have you actually experience the essence of this presence... this awareness? It is something that is done injustice when it is referred to as simply awareness. There is more to it than just what we commonly believe awareness to be. If you've experienced it, which I suspect you have, then you know what I'm talking about.

The awareness is God. But all these names that I am attaching to it in order to define it so that you know you and I are on the same page are still missing the mark on what it actually is.

Awareness is something mysterious and something that we are unable to quantify. Hell, just look what it did in the double-slit experiment.

Consciousness has a magical futuristic quality to it that I can't describe. There's no doubt about that.

The only question becomes then - where does my "i am" end and "the world" begin, where to draw the line and make the distinction, at the level of skin?

Maybe we're part of a much much larger and infinitely complex creative PROCESS and are actually intrinsic to the very heart of it..?

Now wouldn't that be something special eh?

It's like standing on a great cosmic mountaintop.

So who among us is reducing us to a meat bag or a thing, that's what I'd like to know, is it really THAT scary the implications of just who and what we might REALLY be?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by SeeingBlue

 

Would you say that the field of knowing (with awareness) opens up once the mind is confounded by the mystery of unknowing and surrenders itself to the presence of being?

I definitely would.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Is everything really solely up to you? Did you choose to be here in the first place?

no, not in external environmental factors as I tried to point out, but we do have a choice in most matters,
(eg. whether or not I choose to shower).
Did I choose to be here? no, that was part of a natural creation process.
Am I choosing to be here right now? Yes.

Sure, you may now be aware that your destiny is in your hands, but if you didn't choose to be here in the first place... is it really?

the idea that we are already on a pre-determined path..
what I am saying is there is no path, but the one you create in the moment right now.
"the path" changes infinitely for every minute choice you make. it's never set.

If you didn't choose to be human in the first place, then what's the point?

None of us chooses whether we are human are not. We are born into it.

What's the point in a meaningless existence? What's the point if it was all just a cosmic accident?

from a very young age, I learned that none of it mattered. That in 100 years, I will be dead.
In 1000, none of us will be remembered, and in a million, it will be a lost dream that never happened.

You create your meaning. There is no meaning but the one you make for yourself in these moments.
I'm happy as a clam, listening to music, enjoying the rainfall, because I know this is my one chance for all infinity to enjoy it, the way I like to enjoy it.

There is no point, so just kill yourself. Unless there is a point. If there is a point, at all; If you can even conceive of a point of a point; If your life is not meaningless, then shouldn't that be evidence for some cosmic primal template that you might would call God?

Killing yourself would be logical in my type of existance I suppose. Why deny the inevitable, right?
just get it over and done with, sooner than later?
I can't subscribe to that belief even if it is somewhat reasonable using your rationale..
You then deny yourself the ability to create your meaning, making existance truly pointless...

The fact that there is even a such thing as intelligence should be evidence for some sort of spiritual fundamental principle underlying the formation of the universe.

intelligence could be as natural as gravity. and the buildup to intelligence like I said could be millions of trials and errors with a million more variables in between.

Let's get back to the topic at hand. You said that your opinion was that "we are humans on a planet and nothing more.

That still doesn't do justice to what you actually are. What is a human? Would you define it by its common actions and its operation? Well what if I lost a limb and what if I did something that is uncommon? That would make me not human, yes? So you see, you can't accurately define what we are by calling us human if you're going to define humans by our function.

So then, what is a human? Think about it. Give me something intelligent.

A human is an animal. I'm not saying it's what you do or how you do it.
I'm saying that you are a human.
And I am a human. Made of matter, water, carbon. No amount of lost limbs will change that.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
The only question becomes then - where does my "i am" end and "the world" begin, where to draw the line and make the distinction, at the level of skin?

Maybe we're part of a much much larger and infinitely complex creative PROCESS and are actually intrinsic to the very heart of it..?

We are all intimately one. We come from the source. It's like taking a cube and cutting one side of it in many places at the surface so that on top there appears to be a separation of parts. But its all still the same cube at the root.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by yourmaker
what bothers me is when we try to give supernatural meanings for obviously boring existances.

I don't think anyone here has done that, unless by supernatural you mean super natural..

could you please explain the difference and the point you would like me to understand?
(not rude, just wanting to know)

Thanks for this discussion. I can say I have briefly felt what I would call full awareness.

@yourmaker: Supernatural implies fiction. Super natural implies by nature.

It is a subjective experience that most must have before they can accept that they are more than just a body.

For the religious people you need to look no further than Psalm 46:10.

To be able to experience something beyond yourself then you must either accept that you are not your body & you can move beyond it, or that everything is contained within.

Reply to post by yourboycal2

Agreed. At the time we are the ultimate virus. Not only do we destroy everything around us, we destroy our own kind. There is still hope, though. Depending whose shoes you fill.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by SeeingBlue
Thanks for this discussion. I can say I have briefly felt what I would call full awareness.

@yourmaker: Supernatural implies fiction. Super natural implies by nature.

It is a subjective experience that most must have before they can accept that they are more than just a body.

For the religious people you need to look no further than Psalm 46:10.

To be able to experience something beyond yourself then you must either accept that you are not your body & you can move beyond it, or that everything is contained within.

edit on 22-11-2011 by SeeingBlue because: (no reason given)

thanks.

"To be able to experience something beyond yourself then you must either accept that you are not your body & you can move beyond it, or that everything is contained within"

I have had a near death experience while in a hospital, where I left my body and floated into the ceiling while feeling an intense cold i've never felt since. But yet, I am still under the belief that it's all in our mind.
since dreams can be powerful like that, then perhaps that experience was as well.
I would define it as super natural.

if we were living in a spirtual world, I feel it would be so obvious there would be no question about it.

reply to post by smithjustinb

The materialist-atheists don't think that. To them they are only skin deep, an "animal".

Carl Jung said that "religion is a defence against having an authentic spiritual experience", and this POV, as a reaction/response to "religion" is just another variation of the same fear.

Originally posted by yourmaker

A human is an animal. I'm not saying it's what you do or how you do it.
I'm saying that you are a human.
And I am a human. Made of matter, water, carbon. No amount of lost limbs will change that.

edit on 22-11-2011 by yourmaker because: (no reason given)

A human is an animal? You're substituting labels with more generalized labels. This is counterproductive. I want to know "what is a human in essence?" I want a more specific, less general objective answer that fully sums up what a human is. I want this, but I know that no one knows. We can only approximate. Saying that I am a human is only an approximation. Its meaning is subjective.

What it means to be human for me is different than what it means to be human for you. Therefore, the only way either of us is going to come to an agreement on what we are is to stop trying to define what we are. All we can do is, instead of saying "I am human", say "I am this" Now that's something we can all say about ourselves and be accurate. We say "I am this" and before you go into defining what "this" is, stop. If you say "I am this" without defining what this is, then what you are is just what you are; however that what you are presents itself to you.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

The materialist-atheists don't think that. To them they are only skin deep, an "animal".

Carl Jung said that "religion is a defence against having an authentic spiritual experience", and this POV, as a reaction/response to "religion" is just another variation of the same fear.

whats beyond then? why am I only an animal to myself? where is the blinding light showing me the way?
seriously, day by day I read this stuff about worlds out there, heavens and everything but what I really see happening.

I am open to all possibilities, I never outright dispute a claim, even my own beliefs aren't fully in stone.
I may stir the waters to see what's in there, but I don't actually say no to what you are saying.

but some things need to be looked at rationally, with a lens of truth. no bias, or ego.
when I tell you guys how I feel, it's how I feel without my bias getting the way.

I am open to spiritual aspects, UFOS, extra dimensional beings, but until they become 100% fully acceptable beliefs, I will continue to speak my mind on what I "see". There is just no proof of any of it's existance.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by yourmaker

A human is an animal. I'm not saying it's what you do or how you do it.
I'm saying that you are a human.
And I am a human. Made of matter, water, carbon. No amount of lost limbs will change that.

edit on 22-11-2011 by yourmaker because: (no reason given)

A human is an animal? You're substituting labels with more generalized labels. This is counterproductive. I want to know "what is a human in essence?" I want a more specific, less general objective answer that fully sums up what a human is. I want this, but I know that no one knows. We can only approximate. Saying that I am a human is only an approximation. Its meaning is subjective.

What it means to be human for me is different than what it means to be human for you. Therefore, the only way either of us is going to come to an agreement on what we are is to stop trying to define what we are. All we can do is, instead of saying "I am human", say "I am this" Now that's something we can all say about ourselves and be accurate. We say "I am this" and before you go into defining what "this" is, stop. If you say "I am this" without defining what this is, then what you are is just what you are; however that what you are presents itself to you.

in essence we would be consciousness producers, conductors, dream makers, opinion belief making machines.

why is it wrong for us to be human?
we are beautiful creatures with the ability to see the world for what it is. why deny that ability with saying none of us knows? all of us seem to have our own idea, maybe that's it?

Originally posted by yourmaker

if we were living in a spirtual world, I feel it would be so obvious there would be no question about it.

You can't deny the fact that for some it is blatantly obvious. So why can some people know and others can't? I guess it depends on your method of seeking. You seem to be someone who is concerned with cold hard facts (what atheist on ATS isn't). And until there is a cold hard fact for you that there is something spiritual, you will not accept it. (typical atheist mindset). Unfortunately, we're not talking about electrons and protons. We're not talking about interactions of any forms based on natural laws. We're talking about something that is within you. It is something that is invisible, but it allows itself to be observed if the observer is looking within. It is all around us and even when it shows up, the electrons and the protons are still there. But now, there is an underlying presence there. You know when you experience it that it was there the whole time. You see that when you start to define it, it disappears again.

So why can some people know it exists beyond a shadow of a doubt that it exists and others not know? The reason is that it is not something you find with mathematical equations. It is something that is everywhere always but only can only be observed when one is quiet enough not to try to classify and categorize it.

That's why you won't find it in mathematical equations. Numbers are just another tool for classification. It is unclassifiable.

reply to post by yourmaker

I think i said it already - we stand atop an eternal cosmic evolutionary process, intrinsic to the very heart of it all, so there's no distinction, no separation from the whole, the center, and the source. We are enveloped by the alpha and omega, the first/last cause. It's quite extraordinary.

The only question which then arises is this - is there a ghost in the machine?

Are we a "thing", nothing but a meaning making machine, or are we something more than that or something other than that "thing"?

reply to post by smithjustinb

You know if we keep this up, there's a gateway access point, or a doorway, in this inquiry somewhere..

I will open that door for all who will to enter in, find new pasture, and then freely come and go as they please.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by yourmaker

if we were living in a spirtual world, I feel it would be so obvious there would be no question about it.

You can't deny the fact that for some it is blatantly obvious. So why can some people know and others can't? I guess it depends on your method of seeking. You seem to be someone who is concerned with cold hard facts (what atheist on ATS isn't). And until there is a cold hard fact for you that there is something spiritual, you will not accept it. (typical atheist mindset). Unfortunately, we're not talking about electrons and protons. We're not talking about interactions of any forms based on natural laws. We're talking about something that is within you. It is something that is invisible, but it allows itself to be observed if the observer is looking within. It is all around us and even when it shows up, the electrons and the protons are still there. But now, there is an underlying presence there. You know when you experience it that it was there the whole time. You see that when you start to define it, it disappears again.

So why can some people know it exists beyond a shadow of a doubt that it exists and others not know? The reason is that it is not something you find with mathematical equations. It is something that is everywhere always but only can only be observed when one is quiet enough not to try to classify and categorize it.

That's why you won't find it in mathematical equations. Numbers are just another tool for classification. It is unclassifiable.

I suppose thats my fallacy right there, I came into the argument with an expectation that everyone sees like I do which is not the case at all since our experiences determine who we are.

there is one thought ive had for awhile that sort of ties into this...

that everything and everyone is the same energy. it's all one giant conglomerate of one energy.
and that the seperation and distinction occurs in humans because of our perception abilities.
so if we weren't human, or any conscious being, animal etc, looking at my desk would be a different experience.
it wouldn't look like a desk or anything that we can relate it to.
the properties of the energy determine what we see, and how we feel it, but at it's core it's the exact same as the cup or ball. even the empty air we don't see is a form of energy taking up a space.

what does that have to do with anything? that is sort of a part in my "spirtual experience", I would say.

You seem to be someone who is concerned with cold hard facts (what atheist on ATS isn't). And until there is a cold hard fact for you that there is something spiritual, you will not accept it. (typical atheist mindset).

I'm more agnostic. I retain the openness for a god.
As for spiritual, it sort of defies what I feel to be logical. I can believe in infinite energy, but for some reason I can't believe in an omnipresent being of essentially energy. So I have contradicting beliefs and am somewhat ambivalent towards them. I have had both types of experiences, with cold hard facts taking the lead.