Yes eliteist, yes boys club.

Eliteist, well we don't have to go mentioning names now do we? This is in itself a bad thing in my view as I am all for inclusiveness. Don't try to refulte this claim with the "we accept everyone" claim as this is not what i am talking about. As I am about to demonstrate:
What would happen if (hypothetical argument here so just magine..) if absolutely EVERYONE was a member, the whole planet, then there would be no secret anymore. I think the order would dissolve as it has lost its exclusivity and not rejoice in one unity. In order to be special you need to exclude.

Elitist, no. Boy's club, yes.

Please be careful with the term "elitist." Many Masons are regular people, with uninspiring incomes, some of whom happen to hold a 33rd degree.

Supporting equlaity for all in everything, and inclusiveness for all in everything is obviously unrealistic, and you would eventually come to dislike such a situation.

Felons cannot be Masons. People of questionabe morality cannot be Masons. An eminently fair and understandable set of rules for membership. There goes half the planet.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

You haven't adressed my little hypotheses. I reckon Masonry is NOT intrested in having EVERYONE join its ranks, because then everyone is a Mason and it is no longer exclusive.

Is exclusive a better word than eliteist?

Originally posted by Corinthas
You haven't adressed my little hypotheses. I reckon Masonry is NOT intrested in having EVERYONE join its ranks, because then everyone is a Mason and it is no longer exclusive.

Is exclusive a better word than eliteist?

Exclusive is a better word, certainly. Masonry is indeed exclusive. To a degree.

As to your hypothesis: I'm sure you would not want felons or bad people joining your club, if you had one, right? You cannot consider your hypothesis without considering this point.

For instance, during my sponsorship interview, I basically asked a similar question to yours, and was told of an occasion when a person, during an interview, freely admitted that he wanted "use" Masonry on a foreign government (in his home country) in order to put pressure on them. He wanted some money they owed him (al large sum), and since he thought they feared Masons he could threaten them and/or cause them harm. The man was dismissed immediately.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by Corinthas
What would happen if (hypothetical argument here so just magine..) if absolutely EVERYONE was a member, the whole planet, then there would be no secret anymore. I think the order would dissolve as it has lost its exclusivity and not rejoice in one unity. In order to be special you need to exclude.

Heh. Well, Freemasonry's fundamentals aren't based on secrecy. The Order certainly wouldn't dissolve because of a lifting of secrecy. More likely, if "everyone" joined, it would be dissolved because Freemasonry is not for "everyone" and it would be turned into something that it is not.

We certainly are not special because we "exclude" - anyone who meets the requirements of good moral character can join. If your argument is that we are "special" because we do not accept criminals amongst our ranks, then I'm afraid you're on dodgy ground with that statement, as there are literally thousands of organisations that have the same requirement. This doesn't make us "exclusive" - it's just common sense. Why would any organisation, with a goal of Fellowship and Peace, want to accept those who have previously disrupted the harmony of social order by pursuing criminal activity?

But what about the "if you've done the time you shouldn't have to pay for the crime for a lifetime" argument? Well, here in the UK, having a criminal record doesn't necessarily debar you from entrance into Freemasonry - so even then, the "exclusive" argument is baseless. There are different types of crime after all and some do not merit exclusion from the Order. I have known Freemasons who screwed up in their teenage years, realised their mistakes, and were still accepted into the Order in later life. We sometimes make exception and do not always exclude people for crimes committed whilst they were under duress or those that were committed when they didn't know better - it's all about their moral character at and around their time of joining.

So you see, we aren't really exclusive. People like to say we are, but the truth is that they just haven't got off their butts to see how easy it actually is to join. All we require is the man (or woman, in co-Masonry and female Freemasonry) of good moral character - nothing more, nothing less.

And if you can't provide that, then you're the one in the exclusive club.

Originally posted by LTD602
[

As to your hypothesis: I'm sure you would not want felons or bad people joining your club, if you had one, right? You cannot consider your hypothesis without considering this point.

Of course you can consider the hypotheses, other wise we are considering reality not a hypothetical situation, which i constructed to show a point. You are right in pointing out that this will, in fact not happen, but then it stops being my hyoptheses.

But I think it does show that the fun will stop as soon as there are no outsiders left to exclude from your group. Like little venn diagrams, you need to draw a circle around you and you buddies, everyone outside the circle.. well... just aint "with it".

Originally posted by Corinthas
But I think it does show that the fun will stop as soon as there are no outsiders left to exclude from your group.

Who are these "outsiders" you refer to?

I think he means people who are not Masons.

Then it comes down to whether you are for or against clubs.

Well, they exist. Always have. I'm not really opposed to them, as such. I don't know what else to say. Do you feel excluded or insulted as a result? I hope not. You probably don't. Maybe you consider it some sort of injustice, which I think is more likely.



[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by Corinthas

Originally posted by LTD602
[

As to your hypothesis: I'm sure you would not want felons or bad people joining your club, if you had one, right? You cannot consider your hypothesis without considering this point.

Of course you can consider the hypotheses, other wise we are considering reality not a hypothetical situation, which i constructed to show a point. You are right in pointing out that this will, in fact not happen, but then it stops being my hyoptheses.

But I think it does show that the fun will stop as soon as there are no outsiders left to exclude from your group. Like little venn diagrams, you need to draw a circle around you and you buddies, everyone outside the circle.. well... just aint "with it".

Its not really a matter of being "with it". Its a matter of selectivity. Masonry is an organization of good men, honorable men, who want ot ensure that our standards are maintained. I guess it is exclusive in that we only want good men to be members. Bad men can go do whatever they want... like criticizing masons for not letting bad men into the fellowship, I guess...

Leveller
anyone who meets the requirements of good moral character can join.

HEY- where do I sign up??

Do I have to bring a goat or is it still three pidgeons?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Leveller
anyone who meets the requirements of good moral character can join.

HEY- where do I sign up??

Do I have to bring a goat or is it still three pidgeons?

If you noticed, the requirement is for good moral character.
I don't reckon you'll be signing anything, dude.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Leveller
anyone who meets the requirements of good moral character can join.

HEY- where do I sign up??

Do I have to bring a goat or is it still three pidgeons?

Based on the dinners at my lodge, its still a hecatomb of beef...

But since the criteria is a man of good morals and honor, I doubt that PublicGadfly would qualify for consideration... just an observation, however.

Originally posted by theron dunn

Why, if they did that they might find out that masons are good and honorable people doing good and honorable things in the world, and then their little world picture would be all smashed...

Why are blacks not allowed in?

They ARE allowed. Blacks, Jews, Asians, Catholics, Buddhists, everyone. Women have their own group to go to (eastern star.) Masonry is, after all, a fraternity.

Thats weird. I guess its a certain "name I dont know" mason group down in Texas where I live that doesnt allow blacks. My step father is a Mason and thats what he told me.

But are there not the extreme "sects" of masonry like the... I think its called "The Scottish Right" or something that even 'normal' masons avoid or disassociate with? Again according to my step father.

Originally posted by midnight
But are there not the extreme "sects" of masonry like the... I think its called "The Scottish Right" or something that even 'normal' masons avoid or disassociate with? Again according to my step father.

Nothing extreme. Masons do not disassociate with them or avoid them. It is a body that confer appendant degrees (there is also York Rite), if a Mason wishes to take his learning further. In fact, for many Masons, it is a point of personal pride to have these appendant degrees.

Originally posted by midnight

Originally posted by theron dunn

Why, if they did that they might find out that masons are good and honorable people doing good and honorable things in the world, and then their little world picture would be all smashed...

Why are blacks not allowed in?

Who told you they are not? There are several black men in my lodge, as well as Arabic, Jewish, Irish, Mexican, Spanish, AmerIndian...

Also, have you ever heard of PRINCE HALL LODGES?

Thanks for asking, though.

The Scottish Rite is a large extension of Freemasonry that many Freemasons experience, like fries with your Big Mac.* There is nothing at all frowned upon within it. It has been covered in dozens of topics at ATS.

* Not espousing the virtues of McDonalds. I don't like McDonalds but it's an analogy that will work for some of readers.

Originally posted by midnight
But are there not the extreme "sects" of masonry like the... I think its called "The Scottish Right" or something that even 'normal' masons avoid or disassociate with? Again according to my step father.

Scottish Rite Masons are normal Masons, and roughly half of all Masons in the US are members of the Scottish Rite.

Also, black men are perfectly welcome to become Masons. Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Count Basie, Richard Pryor, Thurgood Marshall, and Rev. Jesse Jackson were and are Freemasons.

Fiat Lvx.