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posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS"The idea that each man is his own god and what is right and wrong is not determined by God , but by the individual is a Luciferian principle."




Originally posted by LTD602
The "Supreme Being" I happen to pray to does not decide what is right and wrong for me. I, as an individual with Free Will (not God's will) make that decision. This is a luciferian principle according to the biases and particular prejudices of Christianity and it's associated denominations. Muslims can be counted in as well, if you like.



en.wikipedia.org...

LaVeyan Satanism

Main article: LaVeyan Satanism

This type of Satanism is based on the philosophy of Anton LaVey as outlined in The Satanic Bible and other works. Philosophically, it could be described as heavily influenced by the writings of Aleister Crowley, Niccolò Machiavelli, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, and a few others; "Satan" is appropriated as a positive symbol of this worldview, and is not considered to exist in a literal fashion. Theologically, each individual Satanist is viewed as his or her own god; its rituals are essentially magick in the original sense given by Crowley, with an eye towards furthering the Satanist's ends.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by OLMGITNHFTWS]




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:09 PM
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You cannot compare Nazis to Masons.

Masons did not murder 6 million Jews, or throw millions of innocents into gas chambes.

Further, Masons were persecuted under the Nazi regime. in fact, they are persecuted under virtually every totalitarian regime, i.e., former Yugoslavia under the Communists. Don't even think of being a Mason in Communist China, either . . . at least this was the case years ago.

So, I repeat: In order to judge . . . you must first partake.

Consider it similar to tasting a new kind of food. Many people don't like sardines, and make faces when it is be mentioned. I thought I'd find out for myself, and lo and behold, I like them.

It's that simple.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:12 PM
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I admire Machiavelli, actually.

I've got a leather-bound copy of "The Prince" in my personal library. Lovingly read through several times, and still referred to off and on.

Ayn Rand wasn't a Satanist, she simpy didn'l like religion, which she called "mysticism."

So, then, wuold I, for instance, cocnsider myself a "God"?

Actually I pray to MirthfulMe every night. And, much to my surprise, he answers prayers at roughly the same 35% rate as God.




[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:13 PM
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LTD
So, I repeat: In order to judge . . . you must first partake.


Kind of kills you own anti-Christian arguments doesn't it?



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS
www.adherents.com...

According to this page (might be off slightly but you get the picture) - Yes the VAST majority believe Lucifer is Satan. Christians = 33% You masons are sorely outnumbered in your blasphemous beleifs.


Your rabid Christian misconceptions are leading you down the primrose path of folly. Freemasonry is not a religion, it draws it's membership from the very religions you espouse. The majority of Masons are Christian, however they tend to be "Enlightened" (how Luciferian) to the fine points of intellectual pursuits, a proclivity that you eschew. Examine your simplistic argument: Christian practitioners= unified belief system. You can't even put that 33% in the same room with each other, much less attribute a majority viewpoint to that religious subset.

Your ignorance of the basic precepts of Freemasonry, and it’s members “beleifs” is tantamount to anathema… but without substance, merit, or binding authority… a self serving diatribe of a malcontent.

Blasphemous Monkeys, not just for burning at the stake anymore…


[edit on 6/9/2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly

LTD
So, I repeat: In order to judge . . . you must first partake.


Kind of kills you own anti-Christian arguments doesn't it?



OOO thats gotta hurt.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:20 PM
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I attended Catholic schools all my young life. Church attendance was mandatory. I sang, I took communion, and I participated in school liturgies. I was also baptized, obviously.

Didn't like it. I never respected the Crhistian clergy. Why else would I have turned away ??

When it came to Christianity, I also held Arian views . . . . another little wrench in the machinery of established dogma.

Oh well.


Next.

Actually, even outsiders can experience Christianity. It's all in the bible. Church is open to everyone. Just go ahead and take communion, and see if anything happens. I just uh . . . . never experienced the "Christian God" "entering my heart" and "making a home in my soul."

Must have been that "do not disturb" sign I put out.




[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
. I just uh . . . . never experienced the Christian God "entering my heart" and "making a home in my soul."
[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]


EXACTLY. Thank you for spelling it out that the god of the christians and the bible is NOT the god of masonry.


[edit on 6-9-2004 by OLMGITNHFTWS]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS

Originally posted by LTD602
. I just uh . . . . never experienced the Christian God "entering my heart" and "making a home in my soul."
[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]


EXACTLY. Thank you for spelling it out that the god of the christians and the bible is NOT the god of masonry.


[edit on 6-9-2004 by OLMGITNHFTWS]


Of course it isn't the God of Masonry! Masonry has no God as such. It is not a religion.

You bring your own.

The question asked of a potential mason is: Do you believe in a Supreme Being ??

The Christian God exists beside Allah in masonry, beside the Buddha, beside the Ascended Taoist masters, beside Brahman, etc.

Again, if you can't reconcile yuorself with the "term" Lucifer . . . well, that's no fault of Masonry. Other Christians HAVE reconciled themselves with that term. The best I can do is say "goodbye."

Your own hangups about saving your soul frome eternal hellfire and brimstone, or wording that you do not approve of or whatever, is none of Masonry's concern.


[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:46 PM
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Quote: "The VAST majority of the world accepts the Meaning of Lucifer to mean Satan."

Yeah & the Vast Majority of Sheeple in the World are also IDIOTS. The People on this thread have provided a TON of INFO (Fundies Please Learn how to read) -> Lucifer is NOT Satan (If I have to say this one more time I will PUKE - just what the hell is going on in the Synagogues & Churches anyway)!?!

Also PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE be a little more careful before you start throwing around the "Satanist" word. Did you know that there are two types of Satanists - Deistic & A-Theistic!!! An Atheist might be offended by being Called a "Satanist" - just as a Pagan might be offended by being called a "Satanist". Heck I am sure that HARDCORE FUNDIES would not Hesitate in calling Jews & Moslems "Satanists". This is nothing less than a sign of IN-Tolerance & Ignorance!!

You see it is ALL RELATIVE - a Matter of Perception. A Person might not be a "Satanist Witch" just because you think that their Nose is a little bigger than Normal!!!




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:50 PM
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I see you're also in a zen-like state, seraphim . . . .very good.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Yeah & the Vast Majority of Sheeple in the World are also IDIOTS.



Yet another familiar example of the ELITIST attitudes that masons promote. On the other hand most other religions promote unity and compassion.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 07:05 PM
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LTD

attended Catholic schools all my young life. Church attendance was mandatory. I sang, I took communion, and I participated in school liturgies. I was also baptized, obviously.

Didn't like it. I never respected the Crhistian clergy. Why else would I have turned away ??
..
. I just uh . . . . never experienced the Christian God "entering my heart" and "making a home in my soul."
.
Of course it isn't the God of Masonry! Masonry has no God as such. It is not a religion.
You bring your own.
The question asked of a potential mason is: Do you believe in a Supreme Being ??


Yes, but 'child of the universe' you missed God and Christ. From your own statements you 'just went.' Now that the glory of masonry beckons as a harlot of the damned you curse those that brought you.

Reminds of a girl I took to a bar one time. I sold here for a six-pack, a pizza (small, no pepperoni) and $3.00 to some guys in a car. They had fun and I got my thirst quenched- the pizza was a little dry though.

Seraphim_Serpente may be right. Lucifer is not Satan. From my view point they are different being/entities. Satan being in charge and Lucifer being his minion. The purposes generally ascribed to either one are one and the same. I could be wrong-


I am left to wonder when does a person grow from "sheepdom" into goathood?



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 07:34 PM
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A nice, roundabout way of calling me a prostitute.

Clever, actually, I'll grant you that.

Masonry, however, does not pimp dogma. I find that attractive. I like this particular "John."




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS
www.adherents.com...

According to this page (might be off slightly but you get the picture) - Yes the VAST majority believe Lucifer is Satan. Christians = 33%


I think you're confusing what people believe with they way things actually are.

To begin with, at one time, about 98% of the world's population believed the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around it...and it was "blasphemous" to believe otherwise. But the people's beliefs were completely irrelevant to the fact that the world was round. The earth being round is a truth that is independent of what people believe.

And this brings us back to Lucifer. You yourself quoted a dictionary entry that said the Isaiah verse in the KJV that mentions Lucifer refers to a "Babylonian king", e.g., Tiglath-Pilaser, which I said from the beginning. Therefore, your 33% of Christians is irrelevant; even if 100% of Christians believed that Isaiah's Lucifer was the devil, it would mean no more than 100% of people believing the world was flat. The fact that Isaiah was writing about a human monarch (not a demon) is a truth that exists independently of what people believe.

Secondly, you accuse Masons of being moral relativists, when in fact the opposite is true. You then claim this is "Luciferianism", although the Luciferians were followers of a Latin churchman in the middle ages named Lucifer who opposed the theology of St. Jerome, which I've already mentioned.

Masons believe in moral absolutism, and Masonic ethics are derived from the philosophy of Immanuel Kant. Although Kant was not himself a Mason, his theory of ethics inspired the Enlightenment, of which Masonry was the prime mover. Kant's ethics are quite simple to understand, and he called his method of judging moral rights and wrongs the “categorical imperative”. The categorical imperative states that we should simply consider our actions from a universal standpoint in order to determine if they are moral. In other words, before we perform a given act, we can ask ourselves if the world would be better place if everyone did the same thing we were about to do. If the answer is yes, the action is moral; if not, it’s immoral. Kantian ethics form the basis of a free, peaceful civilization, as well as the Masonic ethical system.

The false charge levied against us is that we are relativists, i.e., we invent our own morals. This outlook was taken by the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche and his followers, not by Masons. According to Nietzsche, there is no God, and thus no moral absolutes. Therefore, everyone are free to invent their own morals. This is an atheistic philosophy, and is at variance with Freemasonry. As a philosophical society firmly rooted both in the symbolism of the ancient orient and the 18th century Enlightenment, we recognize the existence of the moral absolute just as firmly as Plato, Aristotle, Confucius, Buddha, Kant, Kierkegaard, and Mill.

Lastly, to return to “Luciferianism”; as mentioned, Luciferianism was a Christian movement, and Lucifer was a bishop. St. Jerome’s arguments against Luciferianism can be read here; recall that it was Jerome who inserted the word Lucifer in the Bible:

ccel.org...

Fiat Lvx.




[edit on 6-9-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS
The VAST majority of the world accepts the meaning of Lucifer to mean Satan. It is clear that your misinterpretations are only accepted by the minority and therefore COMPLETELY DISCREDITED except by those who would deny truth. Decieved by the great deciever.


Yes, you ARE attempting to deceive, however, as is the motto and function of ATS, we are working to dispell ignorance... and your post clearly shows a) a predisposition toward falsehood, b) a clear lack of understanding of the bible (though you quote it correctly) and the worst of them all c) depending on the "majority" as a definition.

The ignorance of the majority is never to be relied upon as a harbinger of facts. That the name Lucifer was used to refer to a babylonian king, haughty and proud, and then LATER, used by Christians to reference Lucifer, does, in fact, actually EXPLAIN Pike's comment. It is indeed a strange name, the harbinger or LIGHT, to associate with the Prince of Darkness...

further, your quote of Pike is incomplete, and I am constantly amused by folks that quote Pike without ever READING Pike. OLMGITNHFTWS, you are displaying an abyssal ignorance, and a lack of serious study of the subject on which you are attempting to teach masons, who KNOW better.

So, if you don't want to be a mason, fine, don't petition a lodge. If you want to lie about masonry, however, you will be called on it as we are doing now. Don't imagine that we aren't amused, however, by your posting the same old same old time worn drivel that all masonic critics post when they first start attacking masons... .and all of them, as you are now, are getting laughed at and corrected...

Masonry is, by the way, BYOG... that is, bring your own god as masonry offers no god, theology, dogmatic religion of its own, and, in fact, urges all brothers to continue to seek god as they always have, reminding one and all that Masonry is NOT a replacement to religious faith, but an adjunct to it.


Originally posted by OLMGITNHFTWS

Yet another familiar example of the ELITIST attitudes that masons promote. On the other hand most other religions promote unity and compassion.


Oh, churches have united eh? As I recall Jesus said: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Or, how about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Auto Da Fe, the extermination of the Johabites, the Catholic/Protestant Wars, the burning of "witches", among just a FEW examples of religious intolerance, brotherly love, unity and compassion...

You made me laugh so hard I now have to clean Pepsi spew off my monitor!

Thanks for playing, however.


[edit on 6/9/04 by theron dunn]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:19 PM
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LTD

Masonry, however, does not pimp dogma. I find that attractive. I like this particular "John."



Sure, she liked those guys too.

I saw them a week later and they were all using Blue Star ointment-

Boy, I'm sure glad I took the pizza!



Masonic Light

To begin with, at one time, about 98% of the world's population believed the earth was flat




You have some verifiable proof of this or is it masonic 'thought'?



theron dunn

as is the motto and function of ATS, we are working to dispell ignorance



STOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP IT

I am laughing so hard I can hardly type.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly


STOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP ITSTOP IT STOP IT

I am laughing so hard I can hardly type.


Well, THAT would be a welcome change...



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 11:39 PM
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OLMGITNHFTWS - who says that I am a Mason? I never announced that I was a Mason - Never - not once - anywere, at any posting on this Website. It is YOU that just Assume that I am a Mason. I would not Mind Hanging Out with them hovever - because you see I AM a FREETHINKER & many of "Them" are as well!




posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I would not Mind Hanging Out with them hovever - because you see I AM a FREETHINKER & many of "Them" are as well!



EXACTLY


They (as above) are not posting in this thread 'as' masons.





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