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posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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I have been a poster on this website for quite some time and enjoy the fellowship of my Brethren and non Freemasons. The majority of the people who post here are fair and have no axe to grind against Freemasonry. There are some people who are bigots and are paranoid about Freemasons. They believe that the Freemasons are part of the 'World Conspiracy' and that Freemasonry are the 'highest levels' is planning to enslave the world in a one world Government. Why do these people tell these obvious lies? In my opinion and this is a lay opinion theses people are either mentally unbalanced and in need of help and or bigots who hate the Freemasons. I am proud to be a Freemason and happy to discuss the benefits that Freemasonry brings to a well organized and disciplined society.

Brother Gerard




posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 07:18 PM
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It's unfortunate. The problem is that people are passnig judgment on an organization that does not hide itself from public view, insofar as people can join, ask questions, and so forth.

The real challenge is for all the naysayers and avowed anti-masons to acutally speak to a mason in person, or actually JOIN a lodge. The truth is available, the opportunity for real field research exists, yet these people are stuck on the internet. No interest in getting truly involved and going out there in person and mingling among masons, experiencing their rituals, eating with them, and talking with them.

I advocate this approach because with face-to-face contact, you mght actually get to like the person and appreciate their perspective, maybe over a coffee or a few beers. If I were in their shoes I'd jump at the chance to join a lodge (which I am) or interview a Mason in rea life. At the very least, it's about being FAIR, and benig open to ideas that might actually disprove your own theory. It's just good research. You learn that in University. It's about creditable scholarship. You CAN conduct your own, too. It just takes getting off your a.s.s.

Half measures, however, result in half-truths.



posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 09:14 PM
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LTD, I know you are new at this, so I will lay a serious truth on you... these people are not interested in the truth... it only confuses them. They have made up their minds, and assiduously avoid finding out truths. They don't want to meet us, because it is easier to sit in their little darkened computer rooms and type nastiness to the world and feel that they are important, than to actually go out INTO the world...

Why, if they did that they might find out that masons are good and honorable people doing good and honorable things in the world, and then their little world picture would be all smashed...



posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 09:19 PM
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if i may play devils adcovate

i dont think most people think that freemasons themself are bad, i just think they think they are tools for the "illuminati"

also many people think, and i have no yes or no answer to this, that the scottish system is built by a 1 degree does not know what a 2 degree does, and so on, a pyramid effect, and at the top is where freemasons and satanist cross paths. whihc i belive is the 33rd degree



posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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Zach, good points.

here is the truth. The "real" illuminati don't exist. They closed up about forty years after they started, and they were a local Bavarian group started with the purpose of overthrowing the government in Bavaria. Some of the members of that group may have been masons, in fact, I know some were, but masons are also Protestants and Doctors and lawyers, so the association is by no means nefarious.

So, since the illiminati don't exist, and were not a masonic group, masons are not part of the illuminati...

as for the degrees, they are not as you say. There are three degrees of masonry. Period. The other "degrees" are side degrees, and in the United States, are all conferred over a two and half day period (usually all together, sometimes over a couple of weekends) and are a series of lessons on life that expand on the lessons a mason learns in the first three degrees. ANY master mason (third degree) can apply for and receive the other 29 degrees.

So a 31st degree mason is no "higher" than a sixth degree or 14th degree mason. In fact, there is nothing higher than a third degree mason. Also, all of our officers and leaders are elected from among the brethren, and usually only serve a one year term. For instance, the highest chair a man can obtain in California is to be the Grand Master of Masons, and that only for a year, and then he is no longer an officer except perhaps in his local lodge.

Last year's grand master is a past master of my lodge, and he is not an officer at all this year, or likely next.

I hope this helps.



posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 10:23 PM
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ya, i have had my suspicions about masons in the past, but i havent been all like THERE EVIL and what not, but not being one or sumone who devotes my life to studing them , i have no place to say yeh or neh.

I think one reason the Masons are targets of suspicion, is well, basically because its a group that not all people are in, and its popular, its kinda like im bored lets see what dirt i can undig about you.

as far as the illuminati, i know the story of them being uncovered and such, but there is speculation they continued there evil plots underground and gives us our current conspiracy theories.

quick/effective illuminati site
www.conspiracyarchive.com...

then ofcoarse with the illuminati come such things as albert pike, which also raises questions

quick/effective albert pike refernce
www.threeworldwars.com...

with such things as bilderburg/skull and bones/CFR etc. its kinda like an open invitation for speculation

explains the theories behind such groups
www.abovetopsecret.com...

even though i have listed these there are still many more which people theorize on having relations with the illuminati

one more thing that i think the masins have going against them is the fact that misconceptions are created all the time. example is the dollar bill, the truth is that the latin "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" means "New order of the ages", or atleast that is the popular translation as latin is confusing when going from latin to english its has multiple translation, many hoaxs arose that it ment "New World Order" but educated scholars no that in latin that would be "Novus Ordo Mundi." exaclty y all this matters? well it was a mason that designed the new dollar back back in the 30s.

explains it better
www.wordiq.com...

those are just small examples y all these conspiracys get started

the best way to decide is to educate urself, which i spent a good amount of time doing, and i still have no conclusion.

thought ive never talked to a mason, they seem cool to me

edit

i took latin for 2 years, and it can easyily be confusing, not to mention boring.


[edit on 9/4/2004 by Zach]



posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 11:16 PM
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Well spoken theron dunn but your should not speak of such sacred things in public, there are some people in the world that do not wish for ANYTHING to to be said.

-S&C



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 05:33 AM
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My brother, you are correct. I am following the guidelines of a) my conscience and b) of the grand master of masons in California on these issues.

thank you for your kind words.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Zach
also many people think, and i have no yes or no answer to this, that the scottish system is built by a 1 degree does not know what a 2 degree does, and so on, a pyramid effect, and at the top is where freemasons and satanist cross paths. whihc i belive is the 33rd degree


This has been covered before, but it may be helpful to mention it again.

Our degree system is completely misunderstood by the conspiracy theorists. A degree does not in and of itself confer a "rank". Masonic leaders are those who have been elected officers by the universal suffrage of their Brethren, regardless of which degrees they may have had conferred upon them. For example, if a Brother who has nothing besides the Third Degree is elected as Worshipful Master, then he's the Master of the Lodge and "outranks" the 33 members of his Lodge, at least until his term of office expires.

Secondly, it is important to understand how Scottish Rite degrees are conferred. When a Third Degree Mason wants to join the Scottish Rite, he petitions for all degrees beginning at the 4 and ending with the 32. Most Scottish Rite Temples admit new members twice per year at what are called Reunions.

The group of Third Degree Masons are brought into the Temple's auditorium, and receive all the degrees, one after the other, usually in the course of two weekend-long marathon sessions. My Scottish Rite Temple begins Reunions on a Friday evening, conferring the 4 - 13. We then meet again on Saturday morning, and do the 14 - 18. We skip a week, then return on the following Friday and do the 19 - 29. We then come back Saturday morning and do the 30, 31, and 32 which are the really long ones and take most of the day. We then host a banquet in the evening to welcome our new members, along with their families.

All a Mason has to do to join the Scottish Rite is to fill out his application and pay his dues.

The 33 is an honorary degree conferred in recognition of outstanding service, and it is the second highest honor in the Rite. The highest honor is to be decorated with the Grand Cross of the Court of Honour.

It is also perhaps necessary that the Three World Wars link features a fictional letter that was only claimed to be written by Pike by opponents of Masonry. It is, of course, a hoax.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 5-9-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 10:44 AM
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actually JOIN a lodge.

would this not verge on impossible? is there not something in the investigation
or first degree that asks if you are motivated to join or have a preformed good
impression of the order, ( sorry my brain isnt working yet.)

IMHO this situation between Masons/antis will always be with us. Just as it
is between the various christian denominations, Jews and Muslims, Christians and Jews / Muslims, fundies and Pagans. it is the inbred prejudice and the
my way is the only way mentality.

I do hope that at some point this might be over come and all will come together and see the meeting place for all.


It Is A Dream I Have.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by AFAMfounder
Well spoken theron dunn but your should not speak of such sacred things in public, there are some people in the world that do not wish for ANYTHING to to be said.

-S&C


I tend to agree, insofar as an inititate-to-be can agree on such things. I think, however, that Theron was acting within the bounds of what is permissible.

Sacred things have already been blasphemed. I suspect that whatever is truly sacrosanct shall remain private and known only to those who are meant to know them, as it should be.

Still, good point AFAM.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by stalkingwolf



actually JOIN a lodge.

would this not verge on impossible? is there not something in the investigation
or first degree that asks if you are motivated to join or have a preformed good
impression of the order, ( sorry my brain isnt working yet.)


No. In fact, joining a Lodge is the real prerequisite for the credbility to participate in a meanginful debate about Masonry, wherein you will have the right to condemn it if you so choose. Otherwise, since you do not know what they do, you have are in no rightful position to pass judgment on them.

And yes, what you are getting at is obvious: if you feel it is important enough, you can misrepresent yourself. It is your choice, however. It is certainly not proper practice, but there are no penalties for it and there is no real way of proving it. You simply won't get much out of masonry and iwhat it has to offer. BUT, if you are one of those who has a poor impression of Masonry at the outset, then it is likely the wrong impression, since you probably have not been to any open houses at your local lodge or have not spoken to Masons in person. So, unless you seek to substantiate your poor imrepssion by partaking of Lodge open houses or real-life meetings, then you're out of luck.

Besides, there is no evidence to suggest to anyone that you should have anything other than a favourable opinion of Masonry at the outset.

So, be interested, talk to Masons, and I do believe you will join because you want to, because you want to learn, because you appreciate being around good people who value honourable conduct. Further, curiosity in no way assumes lying or falsity. You don't need to feel guilty about joining in order to find out the truth.

Try it. In a previous thread, I posted exaclty the kind of procedure I went through. That might help.


[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:20 PM
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Joining a lodge might be a challenge for some of these folks. Remember the criteria?

1) Be a man
2) Have a faith in the existence of the supreme being and the immortality of the soul
3) Be of good moral standing in the community

Further, they are also asked if they are joining for any base reason, or in the hopes of financial gain... of course, they could lie, but hopefully and investigation committee would find out, and would put the skids on their attempt at admission into our ancient and honorable fraternity.... which may be why they dislike masonry so much... a petty jealously based on a fear that they are not good enough to be made masons...



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:32 PM
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Just to expand on your points Theron . . .

As to reasons:

If a person says they are joining out of curiosity and an interest to learn, it will not be held against them. Am I right?

I did express curiosity and an interest in what the rituals were about, but I also LIKED masonry based on the Maosns I met, based on their love of life and dedication to familty, work, and community. I felt it was a way to achieve a sense of belonging and family, in a way.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Just remember there are people with all 3 of those qualities and more, but they will never join a group such as freemasonry.

Some people have such clairty of soul and mind they do not need to be part of anything other then the unseen connection of all living things.

Some are happy being within their groups of family and friends yet still do great things for their country and community.

Some already understand the nature of the soul, mind and the grandsoul/god/aliens/oversoul, and do not need to progress though rituals, meetings and degree to reach this.

Some are also aware all male groups or all female groups are missing the whole picture. That 2 energies of man and woman are required for the true enlightenment of the human soul and spirit.

Some feel the need to be a freemason, some are quite happy as they are.

In the ultimate end of it a good soul is a good soul.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
Just to expand on your points Theron . . .

As to reasons:

If a person says they are joining out of curiosity and an interest to learn, it will not be held against them. Am I right?

I did express curiosity and an interest in what the rituals were about, but I also LIKED masonry based on the Maosns I met, based on their love of life and dedication to familty, work, and community. I felt it was a way to achieve a sense of belonging and family, in a way.


Curiousity is good, and as long as the candidate is a good man, and he has a good opinion of the fraternity enough to want to join and learn more, then that is precisely the man we would be looking for,

In my opinion.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
No. In fact, joining a Lodge is the real prerequisite for the credbility to participate in a meanginful debate about Masonry, wherein you will have the right to condemn it if you so choose. Otherwise, since you do not know what they do, you have are in no rightful position to pass judgment on them.
[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]


I'm going to have to disagree with you here, LTD. I don't have to join the KKK to meaningfully debate the merits of the organization. I would, however, have to come up with some real evidence (which seems to be the problem here) to support my position.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Just remember there are people with all 3 of those qualities and more, but they will never join a group such as freemasonry.

Some people have such clairty of soul and mind they do not need to be part of anything other then the unseen connection of all living things.

Some are happy being within their groups of family and friends yet still do great things for their country and community.

Some already understand the nature of the soul, mind and the grandsoul/god/aliens/oversoul, and do not need to progress though rituals, meetings and degree to reach this.

Some are also aware all male groups or all female groups are missing the whole picture. That 2 energies of man and woman are required for the true enlightenment of the human soul and spirit.

Some feel the need to be a freemason, some are quite happy as they are.

In the ultimate end of it a good soul is a good soul.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]




Then it would be prudent for these good souls to avoid passing judgment on what they do not undersand, have not see, and have not heard.

I believe that most good souls wiil behave, and DO behave accordingly.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed

Originally posted by LTD602
No. In fact, joining a Lodge is the real prerequisite for the credbility to participate in a meanginful debate about Masonry, wherein you will have the right to condemn it if you so choose. Otherwise, since you do not know what they do, you have are in no rightful position to pass judgment on them.
[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]


I'm going to have to disagree with you here, LTD. I don't have to join the KKK to meaningfully debate the merits of the organization. I would, however, have to come up with some real evidence (which seems to be the problem here) to support my position.



Your first problem is comparing the KKK, an openly racist, destructive organization, to Masonry.

A while ago someone used Al Qaeda the same way.

Wrong.

Secrecy and privacy (Masonry) are not equivalent to, and assume no connection with, racism, bigotry, terrorism, and violence. The presence of one does not imply the presence of the other.



[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 6-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Gerard
I There are some people who are bigots and are paranoid about Freemasons. They believe that the Freemasons are part of the 'World Conspiracy' and that Freemasonry are the 'highest levels' is planning to enslave the world in a one world Government.
Brother Gerard


First off I would like to invite all masons reading this thread to view this video(if you havent already :p) : www.robodoon.com... by Dr. Stanley Monteith

By the title you can easily quess it is somewhat anti-masonic, however it is very very well researched and talks about many other goings on in the world.

In it he talks of all or most of the groups that people claim are trying to gain control of the world. He mentions the CFR,Trilateral Commission,Environmentalists,Illuminati,Masonry,Environmentalists,Naturalists,New-Agers,The Round Table Group, Bilderburgers, and more.

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain"
pg534 Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"
Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike

and I'll repeat this one for emphasis "The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain"
Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike

These quotes are very straightforward and easy to understand. Any good Christian would not involve themselves in an organization devoted to luciferian principles. Why keep secrets unless you have something to hide? Seems to me that ATS is completely dominated by masons, and any serious discussion as to the the hidden meanings and true insights are smothered very quickly. And no 20 of u masons quickly grouping together to tell me how good u are wont change my mind.




[edit on 6-9-2004 by OLMGITNHFTWS]





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