A conversation about faith

The essence of faith is trust.
So of course people who have difficulty trusting are going to have difficulty with faith.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The essence of faith is trust.
So of course people who have difficulty trusting are going to have difficulty with faith.

This is a good observation. I wonder what percentage of Atheists, as opposed to Christians, had unmet needs in the formative years of their lives?

Abraham Maslow made the observation that people who were deprived, early in life, of the basic needs of love, belonging, food, clothing and shelter, were less likely to seek beyond these needs later in life. The missing needs became an obsession throughout life. When these needs are met, the next set of needs are self-esteem and seeking of wisdom and knowledge. Those who experienced love and belonging were shown to be more likely to transcend themselves for the betterment of others. Those who lacked these basic needs have been shown to seek self more than others. Maslow was a genius in my opinion. This is the age old discussion of nature vs. nurture. I say both have a role to play.

It seems that those who show a deep awareness of the world express this by expanding awareness away from self. Those who seek self above all else seem to cling close to their own inner desires. Trust, as you say, has everything to do with faith. It seems that this would also be true of the relationship between faith and self. Awareness in a child is close to self. As a child grows, self is less important and awareness expands beyond the breast of the mother. This reminds me of 1 Peter 2:1

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Faith is what your hoping for, hope is what you get.

The eyes lie behind the curtain, mirrored in the book.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You said that we must have faith that our action/ work will cause change. I agree and this is a universal principle of faith I think. It is also a foundation of any occult practices, you have to visualize and believe In your spell craft or there is no energy created to effect change, that is why most people are not successful with spell work. They desire to produce a result for a specific purpose, but they lack belief.

Also the idea that if you act on selfish desire alone you tend to suffer from it, is very true and it is a universal law of nature(god/physics) action/reaction.....if I desire to feel good and I take some drugs, chances are i will eventually suffer from that choice, but it also opens a door to transcendence, because like christ suffering on his cross, when I suffer for my sins, I am reborn. Either I get sick of suffering and kick the habit and get a new lease on life or I die and cease to exist on this world.

I think many religions teach something similar, but you do not necessarily have to be religious to understand this concept, it is a concept I think all humans understand, but we allow our desires to overwhelm us and the end result is great suffering.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The essence of faith is trust.
So of course people who have difficulty trusting are going to have difficulty with faith.

This is a good observation. I wonder what percentage of Atheists, as opposed to Christians, had unmet needs in the formative years of their lives?

Abraham Maslow made the observation that people who were deprived, early in life, of the basic needs of love, belonging, food, clothing and shelter, were less likely to seek beyond these needs later in life. The missing needs became an obsession throughout life. When these needs are met, the next set of needs are self-esteem and seeking of wisdom and knowledge. Those who experienced love and belonging were shown to be more likely to transcend themselves for the betterment of others. Those who lacked these basic needs have been shown to seek self more than others. Maslow was a genius in my opinion. This is the age old discussion of nature vs. nurture. I say both have a role to play.

It seems that those who show a deep awareness of the world express this by expanding awareness away from self. Those who seek self above all else seem to cling close to their own inner desires. Trust, as you say, has everything to do with faith. It seems that this would also be true of the relationship between faith and self. Awareness in a child is close to self. As a child grows, self is less important and awareness expands beyond the breast of the mother. This reminds me of 1 Peter 2:1

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

I can tell you as a child, my physical needs were met, my emotional needs were ignored and I was sent so many conflicting messages about religion that I was spiritually void. My self esteem did not develop in a healthy way at all and the small sense of security I once had was lost by the time I was 9 so I would agree that I spent a lot of time looking to fill those needs in other things......boys, money, drugs, all the typical things I think people are attracted to.

My husband was raised very poor, guess what? His focus has always been on money.....having nice things, having a better life as he calls it, being comfortable......these are words he uses but what he really means is he hates the idea of being poor, caused he was picked on so much as a kid. Go figure......

I think that at some point life can no longer be just about a person getting their needs met. I think this core of selfishness is ruining our society. I went to a marriage retreat and the chaplains there were hyping how partners have a job and duty to fulfill each others needs and once those needs are fulfilled there will be no problems.....I almost fell out of my chair.....I do not think it is right to expect your loved ones to full your needs......but that is another discussion I suppose.

reply to post by Mijamija

if I desire to feel good and I take some drugs, chances are i will eventually suffer from that choice, but it also opens a door to transcendence, because like christ suffering on his cross, when I suffer for my sins, I am reborn. Either I get sick of suffering and kick the habit and get a new lease on life or I die and cease to exist on this world.

I think many religions teach something similar, but you do not necessarily have to be religious to understand this concept, it is a concept I think all humans understand, but we allow our desires to overwhelm us and the end result is great suffering.

It helps, from a religious standpoint, to see that our works cannot amend our sin. This is where the Christian faith stands in Christ and not on works. Works are addition and subtraction. If you throw trash on my lawn, this is negative. I can then throw it back at you. We now have two negatives. Rewind the past, and instead, I choose to throw your trash in the can with no emotions shown. I have simply added a positive to your negative, therefore eliminating the problem. The problem for you is still the same. You are a litterbug. For me, I am the saint that threw your trash out and suffered your choice. The problem here is simple. We live in a world of sin that is in need of multiplication in heavy doses. Two negatives make a positive when multiplied. Not because more negative is better, but because someone is there throwing the trash away for free. Jesus did this for us.

Consider this example: In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30). If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative. You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero. Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt, walking us back to a positive value.

Our negative sin is too great a divide between us and God. Christ came and suffered the work necessary to multiply his negative suffering to our negative sin. We are changed, just as the person walking down the street will likely change when they witness me throwing their trash away in kindness instead of hatred and judgment.

Magic spells and works will not get you to God. Only Christ can do this.

reply to post by Mijamija

I can tell you as a child, my physical needs were met, my emotional needs were ignored and I was sent so many conflicting messages about religion that I was spiritually void. My self esteem did not develop in a healthy way at all and the small sense of security I once had was lost by the time I was 9 so I would agree that I spent a lot of time looking to fill those needs in other things......boys, money, drugs, all the typical things I think people are attracted to.

My husband was raised very poor, guess what? His focus has always been on money.....having nice things, having a better life as he calls it, being comfortable......these are words he uses but what he really means is he hates the idea of being poor, caused he was picked on so much as a kid. Go figure......

I think that at some point life can no longer be just about a person getting their needs met. I think this core of selfishness is ruining our society. I went to a marriage retreat and the chaplains there were hyping how partners have a job and duty to fulfill each others needs and once those needs are fulfilled there will be no problems.....I almost fell out of my chair.....I do not think it is right to expect your loved ones to full your needs......but that is another discussion I suppose.

You might be interested to read the second chapter in my book. LINK

Like you allude to, objectivism in society is a 'me' centered paradigm. This only allows a person to take for self. Therefore, selfish ambitions are present. Ambition is the easiest reward to take in life. Remember this because it is important. Altruism is the hardest reward to earn. Notice the difference. One takes and the other gives.

If you smoke, you get cancer. This is taking reward, ending in suffering. Taking always produces a debt and suffering to pay the debt. If you suffer a car payment, you get the reward of the car and more freedom. Suffering always leads to reward.

For the marriage counselor to tell you that suffering for your husband is good, he hits the nail on the head. This is an example that will be followed from love. If a pair of socks is left on the floor (which is will be), this is a negative. Yell and we now have two negatives. Throw the socks in the hamper and then negative is cancelled by a positive. A kind response will eventually show by example. As I said in the last post above, our negatives must ultimately be multiplied by more negative or our suffering will not go away. Negative times negative is positive. This is suffering to reward and not temporary reward leading to suffering.

Faith is something that's supposed to make us happy, bring us joy, and help explain the things we are not yet knowledgeable enough to explain. I am absolutely happy being a Pagan.

I understand what you are saying, I just do not agree that Christianity has the market cornered on this concept. I think Christianity is symbolic of universal principles that exist independent of our particular religion. This is my personal belief of course. I think that a person can have a deep sense of faith without being Christian. I think for many people who are not raised in religious homes, it is very hard for them to understand concepts like faith in a higher power, mostly because they are raised to look only at the physical or material aspects of life.

Even those who are interested in new age ideas have problems with faith, they understand how the universe operates, they are aware of the cosmic forces and how they govern the planet and humanity, but many still lack faith that things will be ok, or that their life has a purpose. They are kind of adrift in the big universe, tiny little specks that are a tiny little puzzle piece in the really big picture. Their are plenty of Christians who lack faith, they are those who are Christian in name only, just as I am sure many religions have those who claim a religion, yet do not fully embrace it.

I think regardless of how one develops faith, faith is a positive thing for most people, not the kind of faith where people only believe in themselves and their own needs and disregard others, not the blind faith of those in cults and those who do not question, but faith that comes from a knowing, a deeper understanding.

Like I said, faith can be dangerous, as with all things in life, it just depends on the individual. I have a strong aversion to any group that holds themselves above others, the ones who say "my way is the only way" I think this mentality turns so many people off that it is no wonder people are slipping away from religion. I know the Catholics have a severe image and trust problem due to its recent issues, it is hard for people to have faith in an insitution that has a policy of forgiving child predators.....when things like this happen it makes it hard for people to put their faith in the church. It is not just the Catholics but many organizations.....even secular ones like the boy scouts or the newest scandal the penn state affiliated youth program.

Another secular example is Bernie madoff or the wall street guys or the government......they have all behaved in such terrible ways, how do we put any trust or have faith in any of them? Most people have lost faith in these people, these institutions and it troubles me, because I think a society that has lost faith in its core institutions is a society that is corrupt and heading for complete breakdown. I can have faith in my god/family/institutions, but when the rest of the world has given up....that is the recipe for disaster. It breaks my heart that people have nothing to believe in......it is like a black hole where someone's soul is supposed to be. People fill it up with all sorts of things but seldom do they find the peace they are looking for.

reply to post by Mijamija


All right, I'll bite. After my mother fled my Home State with me in tow, she became devout on her belief of Christianity. She used to pray for hours for my soul, she always saw me as a creature from another planet, and a demon. One time she even had church members come to our house to pray out the demons, that was right after I told her I could see dead people, and talk to them sometimes. I have always felt strong in Spirit, many things bordering on the supernatural have happened to me that cement this in my mind. I have been approached by Golden men who demanded my worship, and that I bow down to them. I refused, of course. As for Deity, I guess I just think of them as Mom and Dad. I do not worship them, make sacrifice to, or for them, and I do not attempt to convert anyone else to think like I think.

I have always wondered just why it is Humanity, for the most part, needs something Greater than They to believe in. Are we so weak as to think a higher being has control over us?

Mind control is very real, and here is why they use it:

They, TPTB, do not want you to know what you really are. There, the secret is out. We the People (of the Entire World) are to be kept in the dark. We are to be spoon fed religious dogma, and showered with electronic toys. We are to have social websites to waste out time away in. All these efforts to keep us in the dark about who and what we all are.

Does anyone besides me think it may be time to wake up?


Oh, yeah, almost forgot. Who are we? ONE

Originally posted by Mijamija
reply to post by Keiju

 

So would you say that faith is more than just believing in something, it is a understanding? I also like the comparison you drew about taking something on faith versus having faith in something, that is important because when a lot of people discuss faith they think it might be naive to have faith in something, especially something that cannot be seen like god for example, but that is where people have to go beyond the physical world and enter into a spiritual world, some people can do this more easily than others.

My dad loved facts, math, logic, physical things.....he never ruled out a intelligent guiding principle organizing the universe but he was not down with the dude on the cloud. He lacked a lot in a spiritual sense. My dad never had much faith in anything that I knew of, and I think often how that colored his rather pessimistic outlook on life.

Thanks for responding!

Yes eventually, faith should become an understanding, it is like the scaffolding when constructing a building. It is to be discarded when the building is stable enough to stand on its own.
But faith in itself, is not an understanding.

One must gamble that the knowledge he uses without understanding is correct.
It is a gamble because the piece of knowledge one takes in faith may or may not be true.

This is why we are so disfunctional when growing up, everything we do is in faith, knowledge handed to us from those who preceded us on this planet, we do as told.
Slowly and painfully we learn through experience what is true and begin to discard pieces of incorrect knowledge we had taken on faith, and keep the piece's that turned out to be true.
Sometimes we discard too much due to distrust. A book contains say 80% false information, and 20% truth, rather than keep the 20% truth we throw out the entire contents of the book.

"My dad loved facts, math, logic, physical things"
All of these are how we come to understand God. When one is able to determine what is true for himself, he is able to discern facts about God, above and beyond merely questioning whether God exist's.

Without the explosion of information that has come to pass in recent years, as a result of the widespread use of the internet, it would have been impossible to come to understandings as easily as one does nowadays, by asking the big questions, challenging big opposition. What was once a trip to the library or a book one might have read a review about in the newspaper is now a click away, often times in endless video clips on the subject matter.
We are possibly the most fortunate ever, in the history of mankind.